Memory + SSD upgrade

[Hyderz]

Got an MSI gaming laptop.. 2 years old now...
The upgrade is for another 3 years or so
Specs

i7 - 11800H
16gb 2x8 DDR4 3200
512 GB Gen 3 1400/1000 generic ssd
3070 RTX
Thinking of grabbing
32GB 16x2 DDR4 Sodimm CL22 G.skill Ripjaws
1TB Gen 4 NVME SSD (either a crucial p5 plus or samsung 980pro)

Costing around $160 (these parts are cheap now) thinking getting before they completely phase for ddr5 and gen 5 stuff

 

[Shrek]

Watch the RAM usage (Speccy is enough); it is quite possible you never go above 16GB and so more would be wasted (and decrease battery life).

Same for your SSD, are you using more than half of the 512GB?

 

[tabascosauz]

Got an MSI gaming laptop.. 2 years old now...
The upgrade is for another 3 years or so
Specs

i7 - 11800H
16gb 2x8 DDR4 3200
512 GB Gen 3 1400/1000 generic ssd
3070 RTX
Thinking of grabbing
32GB 16x2 DDR4 Sodimm CL22 G.skill Ripjaws
1TB Gen 4 NVME SSD (either a crucial p5 plus or samsung 980pro)

Costing around $160 (these parts are cheap now) thinking getting before they completely phase for ddr5 and gen 5 stuff

No problems I see with this

I'm guessing you might not care too much about battery life and maybe keep this unit plugged in mostly, but in the event that you do, the 980 Pro is a pretty solid bet. You want something with low idle power, and the 980 Pro certainly ticks that box.

 

[Hyderz]

Watch the RAM usage (Speccy is enough); it is quite possible you never go above 16GB and so more would be wasted.

Same for your SSD, are you using more than half of the 512GB?

yeah the 40% is already taken up for school files, pdfs, power point files and what not
thinking of the 512gb used as secondary drive for the school files and blizzard games... leaving the 1tb for main drive and steam stuff

ill have a ponder about the 32gb ram

 

[Bill_Bright]

I'm with Shrek on this one.

Other than with the placebo effect and on benchmark tests, I don't think you will "see" any performance gains. 16GB of RAM is already a big chunk and most users don't use that much. But if more virtual memory is needed, you already are spilling over to a SSD. Even the slowest SSD is significantly faster than the fastest hard drives. But the difference between the slowest SSD and fastest SSD is much less significant, if noticeable (except on paper) at all. Same, for the most part, can be said when going from 8GB of RAM to 16GB (big gains) compared to 16GB to 32GB (little, if any perceptible gains).

If you need more storage space, then for sure upgrade to a better performing SSD in the process. If you have $$$ burning holes in your pocket and are just itching to bump your RAM up to 32GB, and you find it a too-good-to-pass-up price, then go for it. Just don't let your hopes and expectations make reality a disappointment. Odds are, if honest with yourself, you won't notice any difference.

If this were a PC, I would say go for it all. A decent "ATX compliant" PC will support many years of upgrades, allowing the computer to almost continually "evolve" to stay current. But laptops, by their very nature, support too few (if any) upgrades, are too proprietary, and are locked in time, limited big time by a motherboard that most likely cannot be swapped out and supports very few, if any, CPU options.

 

[Frick]

Skip RAM for now, get a 2TB SSD. Games are big.

 

[dgianstefani]

32 GB of RAM allows dual rank, so four ranks, compared to single rank eight GB SODIMMs.

Additionally, many games will use enough memory to saturate 16 GB, especially with discord, youtube, etc. open in background.

CL22 isn't great latency, since I assume it's also a 3200 MT kit.

KF432S20IBK2/32 HyperX Impact 2x16 3200/CL20 is what I'd go for, it's £60 here in UK.

I'd also second going for a 2 TB SSD instead of a 1 TB, although this may not be necessary if you're keeping the 512 GB so you have both installed.

While you're in there, give your CPU and GPU a nice repaste, the factory stuff is generally terrible even when new.

 

[Macro Device]

Buying additional RAM will be exceptionally good if OP is an active user of PS, AI, and other media creation stuff. They tend to be "no RAM amount is enough" so additional 16 gigs won't hurt one hunnit percent.

I'd recommend going for a TWO terabyte SSD otherwise, yet the whole upgrade method makes a lot of sense and I don't see any issue in OP's thinking.

 

[chrcoluk]

I agree with monitoring ram usage, however windows memory management is pretty bad, it starts swapping at quite low ram utilisation (can be as low as 20%). With 16 gig you will possibly be already using 20gig of it just from booting windows. Memory compression tames swapping significantly, but that in itself has overheads, especially if memory deduplication is enabled. Swap of course can also be tamed either by removing it or setting it to a very low size.

On my main rig 32 gig is something I appreciate (usually have browser(s) open with heavy tab usage, plus other multi tasking, as well as being a gaming machine), but on other desktops 8 gig is enough and 16 gig is comfortable.

 

[Bill_Bright]

however windows memory management is pretty bad,

I disagree. Do you really think, after more than 30 years and exabytes of empirical data that OS developers, including Windows deveopers, don't understand resource and memory management by now?

it starts swapping at quite low ram utilisation (can be as low as 20%).

So what? That does not mean it is being inefficient. It seems there is a misunderstanding of how swapping works.

Contrary to what some incorrectly believe, the page file is NOT an "overflow". Windows swaps out to the various caches lower priority data regardless how much RAM is available. That is a very good thing!!!! Why? Because it frees up the much faster system RAM for immediate access of the highest priority data. That is a very VERY good thing!!!!

This is exactly why users should NOT limit or disable their page file and instead, just let Windows manage the PF - unless, they is, they have their PhDs in computer sciences and are true experts at memory management and fully understand things like commit rates and other how caches work.

 

[Shrek]

Contrary to what some incorrectly believe, the page file is NOT an "overflow". Windows swaps out to the various caches lower priority data regardless how much RAM is available.

Nicely explained.

 

[Jetster]

Just get the drive if you need the space. 2Tb would be nice, the 980 Pro is a good choice. I don't think you see any difference by adding ram. And leave the swap file alone.

 

[Hyderz]

Thanks for the great feedback guys, btw my laptop is MSI GP76 11UG and the reason I want to go for the 32gb is because

First ddr4 now I believe is in its last legs in production and brands have geared up heavily towards ddr5 production so it’s in my very affordable range to pay

Second while I know at the moment going to 32gb won’t net me any performance gains but I don’t want to get caught out later on say 2 years later I want to add more and only left with generic ram with less than ideal timings on sale..

I’m not sure if I should wait till December Black Friday sale or Amazon Prime Day is just as good, not overly in a hurry but if it’s cheaper then it’s a win

 

[Bill_Bright]

You are right about DDR4 is being phased out and DDR5 is becoming, or already is the mainstream.

As for worrying about availability of RAM with your "ideal" timings, I would not worry about that. Being compatible with existing RAM and more importantly, your motherboard is the big worry.

Beyond that, more RAM is MUCH MORE important than faster RAM.

I’m not sure if I should wait till December Black Friday sale or Amazon Prime Day is just as good, not overly in a hurry but if it’s cheaper then it’s a win

It is and always will be that way. There is just no way to accurately predict the future - especially when such unpredictable things as typhoons, hurricanes, or factory fires or floods (or even war) can completely upset the market.

So I say if you are ready now, and want it now, pull the trigger now. Or else the prices may go up tomorrow.

 

[dirtyferret]

Watch the RAM usage (Speccy is enough); it is quite possible you never go above 16GB and so more would be wasted (and decrease battery life).

Same for your SSD, are you using more than half of the 512GB?

this

 

[chrcoluk]

I disagree. Do you really think, after more than 30 years and exabytes of empirical data that OS developers, including Windows deveopers, don't understand resource and memory management by now?


So what? That does not mean it is being inefficient. It seems there is a misunderstanding of how swapping works.

Contrary to what some incorrectly believe, the page file is NOT an "overflow". Windows swaps out to the various caches lower priority data regardless how much RAM is available. That is a very good thing!!!! Why? Because it frees up the much faster system RAM for immediate access of the highest priority data. That is a very VERY good thing!!!!

This is exactly why users should NOT limit or disable their page file and instead, just let Windows manage the PF - unless, they is, they have their PhDs in computer sciences and are true experts at memory management and fully understand things like commit rates and other how caches work.

Have you ever considered what happens when windows gets it wrong and its prioritising doesnt match up the right data, better to swap nothing and not take that gamble.

For reference I dont make changes for the fun of it, its a reaction to things that happen, when windows swaps foreground apps whilst I have 20 gig of uncommitted ram e.g.

You can have PHDs or whatever, it doesnt mean you know how millions of devices operate around the world, no engineer can ever make something optimal for every device, its simply impossible,

But thats fine, the setting isnt hardcoded in place, they recognised some will adjust it for a multitiude of possible reasons, which is why I said, dont freak out just because someone doesnt use defaults.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Have you ever considered what happens when windows gets it wrong and its prioritising doesnt match up the right data, better to swap nothing and not take that gamble.

Oh bullfeathers. What a ridiculous statement! A drunk could run a stop sigh, drive across 3 yards and take out your front porch. Does that mean you should never leave your house?

Your one-off exception does not make moot the whole point.

You can have PHDs or whatever, it doesnt mean you know how millions of devices operate around the world, no engineer can ever make something optimal for every device, its simply impossible,

Another silly comment. Neither the Microsoft engineers nor modern versions of Windows (since W7) assume there is a "one size fits all" solution. You said it yourself,

the setting isnt hardcoded in place

But your reasoning, once again is, sadly, incorrect. Instead, Windows analyzes your computer hardware and how you use it, then "dynamically" adjusts the settings for optimal performance. But it is not a one and done setting. No!!! It continually checks for changes in hardware, software and how you use your unique computer and will, once again, dynamically adjust the settings as needed "IF" the users just leave the defaults alone!!!!

which is why I said, dont freak out just because someone doesnt use defaults.

You never said anything of the sort. Why would you make such a deceptive and obvious falsehood? Not cool!

What you said was, "windows memory management is pretty bad." Totally different and very wrong. Window memory management (with todays modern Windows) is actually quite good. Perfect? Of course not. Nothing is. Not even you.

And very importantly is the fact that setting a fixed page file size is NOT a "set once and forget setting". Hardware changes. Software changes. User habits changes. And it is for this reason, Microsoft correctly made the page file setting dynamic.

As for PhDs, I don't have one. But Microsoft has teams of PhDs, computer scientists, exabytes of empirical data, decades of experience, and supercomputers to run scenarios. Do you have any of that? I bet not.

 

[sLowEnd]

But laptops, by their very nature, support too few (if any) upgrades, are too proprietary, and are locked in time, limited big time by a motherboard that most likely cannot be swapped out and supports very few, if any, CPU options.

Almost all laptops made in the last decade have soldered-in CPUs. Haswell was the last generation Intel had with socketed mobile chips. On the AMD side the last chips that came out for their mobile socket FS1 (Some Piledriver APUs) launched in...2013?

 

[chrcoluk]

Oh bullfeathers. What a ridiculous statement! A drunk could run a stop sigh, drive across 3 yards and take out your front porch. Does that mean you should never leave your house?

Your one-off exception does not make moot the whole point.


Another silly comment. Neither the Microsoft engineers nor modern versions of Windows (since W7) assume there is a "one size fits all" solution. You said it yourself,

But your reasoning, once again is, sadly, incorrect. Instead, Windows analyzes your computer hardware and how you use it, then "dynamically" adjusts the settings for optimal performance. But it is not a one and done setting. No!!! It continually checks for changes in hardware, software and how you use your unique computer and will, once again, dynamically adjust the settings as needed "IF" the users just leave the defaults alone!!!!


You never said anything of the sort. Why would you make such a deceptive and obvious falsehood? Not cool!

What you said was, "windows memory management is pretty bad." Totally different and very wrong. Window memory management (with todays modern Windows) is actually quite good. Perfect? Of course not. Nothing is. Not even you.

And very importantly is the fact that setting a fixed page file size is NOT a "set once and forget setting". Hardware changes. Software changes. User habits changes. And it is for this reason, Microsoft correctly made the page file setting dynamic.

As for PhDs, I don't have one. But Microsoft has teams of PhDs, computer scientists, exabytes of empirical data, decades of experience, and supercomputers to run scenarios. Do you have any of that? I bet not.

You seem to have took offense to the phrase "windows memory management is pretty bad.", the question is why, I suggest just forgetting my posts and moving on.

 

[Wirko]

Stupid apps may request an insane amount of memory but may never actually use it. Windows reserves virtual memory for that and expands the PF if necessary. If the app then only uses a small amount of memory, it doesn't trigger any paging out of RAM. Nothing is wasted. (Paging out while there's enough free RAM would waste a lot of time and OSes are well aware of that.)
Now if the app actually does use (write to) the entire big chunk of VM allocated to it then there will be a lot of swapping, which is wasteful but inevitable. But the system will remain stable because Windows has made sure, by expanding the PF beforehand, that enough virtual memory is available.
So Windows' memory management may appear broken - but that's because applications have bad memory allocation algorithms built in.

 

[cameronh779]

I'm with Shrek on this one.

Other than with the placebo effect and on benchmark tests, I don't think you will "see" any performance gains. 16GB of RAM is already a big chunk and most users don't use that much. But if more virtual memory is needed, you already are spilling over to a SSD. Even the slowest SSD is significantly faster than the fastest hard drives. But the difference between the slowest SSD and fastest SSD is much less significant, if noticeable (except on paper) at all. Same, for the most part, can be said when going from 8GB of RAM to 16GB (big gains) compared to 16GB to 32GB (little, if any perceptible gains).

If you need more storage space, then for sure upgrade to a better performing SSD in the process. If you have $$$ burning holes in your pocket and are just itching to bump your RAM up to 32GB, and you find it a too-good-to-pass-up price, then go for it. Just don't let your hopes and expectations make reality a disappointment. Odds are, if honest with yourself, you won't notice any difference.

If this were a PC, I would say go for it all. A decent "ATX compliant" PC will support many years of upgrades, allowing the computer to almost continually "evolve" to stay current. But laptops, by their very nature, support too few (if any) upgrades, are too proprietary, and are locked in time, limited big time by a motherboard that most likely cannot be swapped out and supports very few, if any, CPU options.

What do you mean by ATX compliant? I have an idea, but would appreciate a bit of elaboration. Sorry if im hijacking the thread a little by asking.

 

[Shrek]

I think he means with standard parts (nothing proprietary), so one can upgrade piece by piece.

I have an old HP with 12V only power supply, but was still able to upgrade the

• CPU
• RAM
• Hard drive
• Video card
• Wi-Fi

One interesting thing about the power supply is that its fan is controlled by the motherboard and since I depended on it, I recapped it preemptively.

 

[tabascosauz]

I think he means with standard parts (nothing proprietary), so one can upgrade piece by piece.

I have an old HP with 12V only power supply, but was still able to upgrade the

• CPU
• RAM
• Hard drive
• Video card
• Wi-Fi

One interesting thing about the power supply is that its fan is controlled by the motherboard and since I depended on it, I recapped it preemptively.

I'm not seeing how this is relevant in any way to deciding on a RAM upgrade and SSD upgrade for OP's laptop.

 

[Shrek]

Appologies, just answering a question; I would not be offended if you deleted my post to keep the thread on-topic.

 

[Bill_Bright]

What do you mean by ATX compliant?

ATX refers to the industry standard "form factor" that dictates the physical shapes and sizes of "PC" cases, power supplies, motherboards, expansion cards, etc. It also dictates voltages and power and data connectors allowed. This industry standard is what allows users to mix and match components from different makers and be confident they will all fit together, and work together correctly.

There is no similar standard for laptops which is why they tend to be very proprietary. And since the OP is asking about a laptop, taboscosauz is correct to point out,

I'm not seeing how this is relevant in any way to deciding on a RAM upgrade and SSD upgrade for OP's laptop.

I too apologize for any diversions I might have caused or contributed to.

Almost all laptops made in the last decade have soldered-in CPUs.

True. And many have surface mounted (soldered in) RAM too. This is partly to save money (no sockets, fewer parts) but also because consumers keep demanding thinner and lighter laptops. Just another factor to be aware of when considering upgrading RAM.