New build, is this ram bad or is it my cpu/board?

[ir_cow]

I was asking why are the timings wrong. I'm confused how you think I'm confused about voltages now lol

Everything @ShrimpBrime said about the ring and CPU voltage isn't part of the XMP stuff. You're answer was about Patriot and the setting in the XMP profile. This is why I think your super confuse

Edit. Sorry it seems I'm not helping. Disregard all my posts.

 

[Upgrayedd]

The tRC timing, which is a primary isn't correct. A lot of times, the secondaries are not correct either.

The board will only do training when set to enable. I'm not sure what training algorithms will be on a prime board. I'm used to clocking ROG boards.

How are they wrong? I genuinely just don't know timings very well.
I'm also off that prime board and using an Apex Encore now.

Everything @ShrimpBrime said about the ring and CPU voltage isn't part of the XMP stuff. You're answer was about Patriot and the setting in the XMP profile. This is why I think your super confuse

Edit. Sorry it seems I'm not helping. Disregard all my posts.

I think I see why you think I'm confused. Shrimp also said the timings were wrong in that post, that's what I was referring to in my reply.
Is it possible then patriot has wrong timings? I don't know what's supposed to be a correct timing.
I did notice patriot do have somewhat different timings than other brands.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

So this thread is a mess from the hardware changes.

Apex should have no issues at 8000mhz.

So different memory set as well?

 

[Upgrayedd]

So this thread is a mess from the hardware changes.

Apex should have no issues at 8000mhz.

So different memory set as well?

Hell yeah it's a mess I'll agree.
Some updated context

2x24GB Patriot Extreme 8000. Apex Encore. BIOS 0507. 14700K. Struggled my butt off with a thermal grizzly contact frame trying many different pressures. I'm back to the stock ilm now and it's much much better as far as stability. 7600XMP is the only xmp profile that will pass, anything higher will error using XMP1 or XMP2. Using a noctua d15 with 2x 140mm 3000rpm noctuas. The ram sits behind the first intake fan on the air cooler.

All I've done is disable mce and enable xmp.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

TRC should be 117 not 132. Need to set that up manually in the timings menu. The rest of the secondaries may need to be looked at and adjust also.

The Ring ratio you should manually lower to say x48 multiplier. At 5ghz, it requires additional voltage. If there is not a ring voltage, it runs off the CPU v-core.

 

[ir_cow]

I'm seeing SA 1.25, VDDQ_TX 1.35 and VDD2 at 1.4.

 

[Upgrayedd]

TRC should be 117 not 132. Need to set that up manually in the timings menu. The rest of the secondaries may need to be looked at and adjust also.

The Ring ratio you should manually lower to say x48 multiplier. At 5ghz, it requires additional voltage. If there is not a ring voltage, it runs off the CPU v-core.

Hm what do you think that is about? I mean it says in the bios is supposed to be 117. Why would it be different like that?

I'm seeing SA 1.25, VDDQ_TX 1.35 and VDD2 at 1.4.

TRC should be 117 not 132. Need to set that up manually in the timings menu. The rest of the secondaries may need to be looked at and adjust also.

The Ring ratio you should manually lower to say x48 multiplier. At 5ghz, it requires additional voltage. If there is not a ring voltage, it runs off the CPU v-core.

Would I just be better off getting a different branded kit you think? It's my first patriot kit I've always bought gskill.

 

[ir_cow]

And I'm back... couldn't keep away

TRC on the Apex does whatever it likes. Nothing to do with the brand of memory.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Hm what do you think that is about? I mean it says in the bios is supposed to be 117. Why would it be different like that?



Would I just be better off getting a different branded kit you think? It's my first patriot kit I've always bought gskill.

Like ir_cow says, Asus just seems to set w/e tRC timing. And probably others that are on auto as well.

I don't know alot about the Patriot kit. There could be several factors which would be inhibiting the ability to run its max XMP profile, but these things are never promised.

You could get a different kit.... but performance from 7600 to 8000mt/s is not going to be some night and day thing where you'd throw money at it and get like an extra 100 fps or something.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Here's some pictures from my bios. I set the cache max to 48 after taking these. The only things that changed after that were "Actual VRM Core Voltage" got bumped from 1.350v to 1.394v and under the prediction box Cache V went down from 1.367v to 1.313v

I can't even find tRC and I don't know what to look for if it's called something else here.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Damn nice board.

Turn off fast boot.
Where's the memory training page?
Yeah find that, you want to set early training to enabled.

Voltages look normal for Asus. Always an overshoot on volt readings. Gotta love it, gotta cool it.

Fan on the memory. This will help your torture testing stability.

For past 7600mhz, you'll want the memory training on.

For faster post after a failed OC, reduce the count to like 2.

At the XMP profile, manually increase the memory divider (frequency). Leave XMP enabled.
I'd start with 1:133 opposed to 1:100 at any given speed. So like set 7666mhz for example. Training algorithms on will train your timings left at auto for you. Restart, test.

OCCT linpack. Load at least 80% of available RAM. Time is up to you.

You can increase the memory voltage to 1.5v so long as you have a fan right on them sticks. Temps are important.

Once you've trained up the memory to a speed you're comfy with, then you manually tweak the timings for additional performance.

 

[nomdeplume]

Getting a lot of ancillary information out of this for when I decide to move to a less pedestrian build!

 

[ir_cow]

Well I'm going to be even less helpful than I was. For me up to 8400, I don't touch anything besides the voltages. I'll change the sub-timings I want to adjust (post stability check). Also will only force enable MCH Full Check when overclocking really far like 6000 DIMMs to 8000 or something. I usually just leave it on auto. The APEX is amazing compared to 4-slot MBs where I have to basically set everything under the sun in hopes of stabilizing 7600+.

Also my Ring Cache is 49X because I locked it down for reviews. On Auto my CPU goes from 46x- 50x randomly.

System Agent Voltage = SA
IVR Transmitter VDDQ Voltage = CPU VDDQ_TX
Memory Controller Voltage = VDD2

Up to 8000 SA- 1.15V, TX 1.25, VDD2, 1.25
8200: SA 1.275, TX 1.35, VDD2 1.35
8400: SA 1.3-1.35, TX 1.35-1.4, VDD2 1.35

So far that is the highest I can go for long term stability. I can boot two DIMMS at 8600 from a cold boot and 1 DIMM at 9000. Just the limit of my IMC without going stupid on the voltages or sub-ambient cooling.

These screenshots are just with the APEX, not Encore. I have both and besides new FLEX power options, they both seem reach the same limits for me. Of course I am just an amateur that doesn't go below ambient...so Encore could be better, but I'll never be able to test it to the limits.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Damn nice board.

Turn off fast boot.
Where's the memory training page?
Yeah find that, you want to set early training to enabled.

Voltages look normal for Asus. Always an overshoot on volt readings. Gotta love it, gotta cool it.

Fan on the memory. This will help your torture testing stability.

For past 7600mhz, you'll want the memory training on.

For faster post after a failed OC, reduce the count to like 2.

At the XMP profile, manually increase the memory divider (frequency). Leave XMP enabled.
I'd start with 1:133 opposed to 1:100 at any given speed. So like set 7666mhz for example. Training algorithms on will train your timings left at auto for you. Restart, test.

OCCT linpack. Load at least 80% of available RAM. Time is up to you.

You can increase the memory voltage to 1.5v so long as you have a fan right on them sticks. Temps are important.

Once you've trained up the memory to a speed you're comfy with, then you manually tweak the timings for additional performance.

Could you tell me why to turn off fast boot? And why are you guys lowering your cache ratios from stock? Thanks everyone who posted here, it all helps even the jokes haha

Edit: everything in the training page is auto

 

[ir_cow]

Fast boot can skip some memory training and if you are having troubles, that might help. Same goes with lower the cache ratio.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Fast boot can skip some memory training and if you are having troubles, that might help. Same goes with lower the cache ratio.

So I was able to pass xmp 7800 after setting the cache 48 and fast boot off. I tried 8000 and it just a had a single error where before it would've just threw errors constantly. I haven't tried putting the cache to 49 yet to see if it will pass still.

Damn nice board.

Turn off fast boot.
Where's the memory training page?
Yeah find that, you want to set early training to enabled.

Voltages look normal for Asus. Always an overshoot on volt readings. Gotta love it, gotta cool it.

Fan on the memory. This will help your torture testing stability.

For past 7600mhz, you'll want the memory training on.

For faster post after a failed OC, reduce the count to like 2.

At the XMP profile, manually increase the memory divider (frequency). Leave XMP enabled.
I'd start with 1:133 opposed to 1:100 at any given speed. So like set 7666mhz for example. Training algorithms on will train your timings left at auto for you. Restart, test.

OCCT linpack. Load at least 80% of available RAM. Time is up to you.

You can increase the memory voltage to 1.5v so long as you have a fan right on them sticks. Temps are important.

Once you've trained up the memory to a speed you're comfy with, then you manually tweak the timings for additional performance.

Here's some pics of my training page. I see a few with the mention of "early" in therm. Which ones are you saying to enable? And which one for reducing the boot count of failed OC?

Edit: tried 7600xmp manually raised to 7800 and just had boot loops.

 

[ir_cow]

Why aren't you using the XMP profiles?

 

[Upgrayedd]

Why aren't you using the XMP profiles?

I am. I passed 7600xmp2 without those changes you guys suggested by just switching back to stock ILM. Then made the cache and fast boot changes and passed 7800 xmp2 which I've never passed yet. Then I only had 1 error on 8000xmp with those changes. So I went to try a manual speed bump from 7600xmp to 7800 but started looping in training I think.

 

[ir_cow]

. So I went to try a manual speed bump from 7600xmp to 7800 but started looping in training I think.

Exactly. Why are you not using the included XMP profiles the Patriot Memory has?

Also what program are using for memory stability testing?

 

[Upgrayedd]

Exactly. Why are you not using the included XMP profiles the Patriot Memory has?

Also what program are using for memory stability testing?

Memtest 10.6
Once I get back to back passes I'll try stability programs in windows.

Is that not how people have always done basic RAM OCing?
Bump up speeds from xmp until instability?
I've tried every profile. 7600 profile works at 50 cache ratio and 7800 profile works when at 48 for Cache ratio. But 8000 is still not going to happen so I thought I'd try an OC from a passing XMP profile.

I mean I'm certain 7600 and 7800 xmp are going to work now. Right now I'm trying cache49 and xmp7800. I kinda think it's just the limit of the cpu and 8000 won't happen. That's fine really. I knew it wasn't guaranteed but 7600 should've been achievable and it wasn't happening until I took that contact frame out. So now I'm trying to find the fastest it will pass. Which seems to xmp2 7800.
Now that I've found my contact frame was my biggest culprit of instability, you think I should try and use Asus enhanced XMP1? Is there any advantage to it? I just don't want to leave anything on the table if I can help it.

Edit: cache49 @ 7800xmp2 has errors. Cache48 passed. I tried cache47 and 8000xmp2, still gives an error.
So 7600xmp2 cache50 passes with fast boot off.
7800xmp2 needs cache 48 to pass.

I seem to be at the limits unless I'm missing something in the memory training page I should enable from auto that might help.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I'd like to edit the 1st post but this will have to do.

This is for anyone having stability problems using a Thermal Grizzly contact frame on Z790.

tldr : Thermal Grizzly contact frame was my issue. Doesn't list any specific torquing instructions, says just put it on and go. You have to search the internet for der8auer and TG saying its some specific torque setting of like .06Nm, unreasonable, no normal people have a torque driver that tiny.
If you're having issues, throw it out and put the stock ILM back on, or I've heard others say the thermalright CF is alright but even then the stock ILM is fine, temps were VERY even across all the cores with NH-D15 and the stock ILM.

quote from first paragrapgh on TG website

"With the Intel 13th Gen CPU Contact Frame by der8auer we have updated the well-known mounting aid for Intel mainboards with socket LGA1700. Compared to its predecessor, the assembly of the frame has been significantly simplified by utilising a revised inner contour. For example, there is no longer any need to use a specific torque during Assembly."

Blatant lie.. I'll never buy anything TG again. I'll find a different paste, I used to tell people it works well for me. der8auer full of it. "German Engineered Perfection" ... GTFO .. if it has a problem with certain boards, tell people. wtf.

 

[ir_cow]

I don't have the TG one, but the Thermalright and bitspower one doesn't have a "torque" problem. Just evenly tighten it down until the screws don't move. Easy

Can't confirm TG is the same. Not going to spend $40 to find out.

 

[Deleted member 223428]

I don't have the TG one, but the Thermalright and bitspower one doesn't have a "torque" problem. Just evenly tighten it down until the screws don't move. Easy

Yep. I have two cheapo junk thermalrights and haven't experienced any issues on either board/cpu combo.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I don't have the TG one, but the Thermalright and bitspower one doesn't have a "torque" problem. Just evenly tighten it down until the screws don't move. Easy

Can't confirm TG is the same. Not going to spend $40 to find out.

Hell I paid it and paid for it over and over in time lost and headaches.

I was going to look at ordering a different one but the temps were great with the stock ILM. There's only one core, like core 5 or 6 that ran a little hotter. Every other core was either dead even with each other or within 1-2C at most. The hotter core was a decent bit hotter, maybe 6C or so, but it wasn't throttling from it even during stability testing so gaming is definitely fine without a CF at least with my convex air cooler, NH-D15. Don't know how AIOs got as popular as they have really lol

Here's some finished pics. Some showing the RAM clearance and the fan asus provided with the board. Photos taken looking down from the top of the ram.

 

[ir_cow]

If stock ILM on works for you and the temps are decent, I wouldn't suggest you try to use a contact frame again.