New Air Cooler for 5800X3D (height constrained, retro chassis)

[LabRat 891]

Currently, I have an HDT-type FSP Windale 6 atop my 5800X3D, and regularly bounce off the CPU's thermal limits.
Yes, I'm aware I can improve the situation, with better (ducted) airflow and a good paste (instead of PTM7950).

Looking for a $30-90, <152mm/6" tall, 'top-tier' air cooler. I have 0 trust in AIO longevity, and the 'new' case has little space for a radiator

Unlike my last HSF purchase, I'd like the MCM layout of the CPU and the heatpipes' layout taken into consideration. (Intel example) for illustration:

FS140*

The Frost Spirit 140 was almost an instant buy but, I'm concerned it's too tall for the case.
(Would replacing the fans w/ (on-hand) AC P12s resolve the height issue?)

Chassis is a Velocity Micro Lian Li PC-60 descendant with approximately 6 inches of clearance from board to side panel.
It will not be windowed, so 'aesthetics' are a non-concern, so long as it fits.

Thanks.

 

[tabascosauz]

Currently, I have an HDT-type FSP Windale 6 atop my 5800X3D, and regularly bounce off the CPU's thermal limits.
Yes, I'm aware I can improve the situation, with better (ducted) airflow and a good paste (instead of PTM7950).

Looking for a $30-90, <152mm/6" tall, 'top-tier' air cooler. I have 0 trust in AIO longevity, and the 'new' case has little space for a radiator

Unlike my last HSF purchase, I'd like the MCM layout of the CPU and the heatpipes' layout taken into consideration. (Intel example) for illustration:
View attachment 339798View attachment 339799
FS140*

The Frost Spirit 140 was almost an instant buy but, I'm concerned it's too tall for the case.
(Would replacing the fans w/ (on-hand) AC P12s resolve the height issue?)

Chassis is a Velocity Micro Lian Li PC-60 descendant with approximately 6 inches of clearance from board to side panel.
It will not be windowed, so 'aesthetics' are a non-concern, so long as it fits.

Thanks.

No, the way to improve 5800X3D thermals is to improve thermal transfer between CPU and heatsink, and use curve optimizer and Vcore offset...there's no point trying to speculate what will work best based on die layout. The Intel pictures have no relevance whatsoever, the orientation is the same but the single Zen 3 CCD is a tiny thing and you will not really find any orientation more satisfactory than another. These aren't direct heatpipe contact coolers so heatpipe orientation is not that big a deal. It might be a more relevant question for a 5900X or 5950X.

If you really want the best still, then pick something with more heatpipes, even if the difference will be negligible. FC140 and FS140 fat heatpipes look like they'd help Ryzen but they really don't.

FC140 and FS140 are 158mm coolers. Any further protrusion from a 140mm fan is in addition to 158mm on the heatsink. PA120/PS120 get a bit closer at about 154-155mm.

There's also the new PA120 mini, which is very similar to the SS135, again 135mm. It has more heatsink mass than the SS135. Also more heatsink mass than the old Silver Arrow 130, so the PA120 mini is probably the best bet.

Height limited coolers are the likes of NH-C14S (~142mm) or SS135 (135mm), and are not "top tier". C14S would need a vented panel, but SS135 doesn't have any special requirements. Either of them will still provide U12S-level cooling under ideal conditions. Which is fine for the 5800X3D, "more" cooling isn't always superior as one would expect. If you have bad luck of the draw and get a 5800X3D that just runs hot or has poor internal IHS contact, then you could waterblock it with a top of the line block and it still wouldn't change anything.

 

[LabRat 891]

No, the way to improve 5800X3D thermals is to improve thermal transfer between CPU and heatsink, and use curve optimizer and Vcore offset...there's no point trying to speculate what will work best based on die layout.

I can't tweak-down more than '10' all core on curve optimizer, and any vcore offset I've applied eventually causes an issue. -based off my last 'tuning session' with it.

The Intel pictures have no relevance whatsoever, the Zen 3 CCD is a tiny thing and you will not really find any orientation more satisfactory than another. These aren't direct heatpipe contact coolers so heatpipe orientation is not that big a deal.

I knew I should've overlaid a nekkid Zen3 They were entirely for illustrating the concern.
However, your point is well-taken.

If you really want the best still, then pick something with more heatpipes, even if the difference will be negligible. FC140 and FS140 fat heatpipes look like they'd help Ryzen but they really don't.

FC140 and FS140 are 158mm coolers. Any further protrusion from a 140mm fan is in addition to 158mm on the heatsink. PA120/PS120 get a bit closer at about 154-155mm.

I see.

There's also the new PA120 mini, which is very similar to the SS135, again 135mm. It has more heatsink mass than the SS135. Also more heatsink mass than the old Silver Arrow 130, so the PA120 mini is probably the best bet.

Height limited coolers are the likes of NH-C14S (~142mm) or SS135 (135mm), and are not "top tier". C14S would need a vented panel, but SS135 doesn't have any special requirements. Either of them will still provide U12S-level cooling under ideal conditions. Which is fine for the 5800X3D, "more" cooling isn't always superior as one would expect.

The TR Silver Soul 135 and Peerless Assassin 120 Mini both look like near-ideals.
(even, in how I think a HSF should be built)

If you have bad luck of the draw and get a 5800X3D that just runs hot or has poor internal IHS contact, then you could waterblock it with a top of the line block and it still wouldn't change anything.

The Windale 6 (w/o ducting/fans strapped on) was at its limits w/ my R5 5600.
@TM, It's absolutely overwhelmed by the 5800X3D. Not to mention, it's too dang tall

I'll be finding out how good/bad my particular 5800X3D example is, after getting it under sufficient cooling and moved into its 'new' home.

Is there anything 'better' than the new PA120m and under 152mm tall?

JIUSHARK JF13K?

 

[tabascosauz]

I can't tweak-down more than '10' all core on curve optimizer, and any vcore offset I've applied eventually causes an issue. -based off my last 'tuning session' with it.

I knew I should've overlaid a nekkid Zen3 They were entirely for illustrating the concern.
However, your point is well-taken.

It is more a concern for your current cooler because it's HDT. But even then, you really can't win, so the moral of the story is to stay away from HDT

I'll be finding out how good/bad my particular 5800X3D example is, after getting it under sufficient cooling and moved into its 'new' home.

Is there anything 'better' than the new PA120m and under 152mm tall?

It might be gamersnexus but this graph literally is of no value. 200W 3950X is putting out a heck ton of heat spread across two CCDs, it's about as close to Intel cooling (more cooler more better) as Ryzen can get. The thermal density issue is not of the same severity nor of the same nature as it is with 5800X3D. The only thing that really makes sense is the Vetroo at the bottom, for being HDT and a narrow single tower.

JIUSHARK JF13K?

Interesting design, but it's still a downdraft cooler. If you don't go out of your way to accommodate them with airflow, it's going to suck every bit as badly as a suffocated C14S.

It also suffers from C14S syndrome in that you can add more/beefier fans to it, but performance will not change.

Without active side airflow, that accommodation will be on the same level of say, an NCASE or NR200P vented side panel. If you can't offer that kind of ventilation, best to forget about downdraft coolers.

For reference, I have a decent 5800X3D (-28) that has bad thermals. C14S performs similarly to a U12A (~78C), and FC140/PA120 only best them by 2-3C degrees. 5800X3D is not the same as the rest; not in any other scenario could a C14S dream of offering U12A performance.

 

[LabRat 891]

It is more a concern for your current cooler because it's HDT. But even then, you really can't win, so the moral of the story is to stay away from HDT

Yup!

It might be gamersnexus but this graph literally is of no value. 200W 3950X is putting out a heck ton of heat spread across two CCDs, it's about as close to Intel cooling (more cooler more better) as Ryzen can get. The thermal density issue is not of the same severity nor of the same nature as it is with 5800X3D. The only thing that really makes sense is the Vetroo at the bottom, for being HDT and a narrow single tower.

Interesting. I was aware the X3D was a bit 'unique', wasn't realizing just how 'till now.

Interesting design, but it's still a downdraft cooler. If you don't go out of your way to accommodate them with airflow, it's going to suck every bit as badly as a suffocated C14S.

It also suffers from C14S syndrome in that you can add more/beefier fans to it, but performance will not change.

Without active side airflow, that accommodation will be on the same level of say, an NCASE or NR200P vented side panel. If you can't offer that kind of ventilation, best to forget about downdraft coolers.

The difficulty to install, and impossibility of access to RAM, kinda makes it a non-option too (after thinking about it more).

For reference, I have a decent 5800X3D (-28) that has bad thermals. C14S performs similarly to a U12A (~78C), and FC140/PA120 only best them by 2-3C degrees. 5800X3D is not the same as the rest; not in any other scenario could a C14S dream of offering U12A performance.

Guess I'll be ordering a PA120mini

Now... What the heck is the difference between these 2 listings?!

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-Peerless-Assassin-Cooler-TL-D12B/dp/B0CQQYJC5M/

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-Peerless-Assassin-Technology-1500RPM/dp/B0CQQ4RWDF/

Edit: Apparently, there's >155mm of clearance. the 155m, 157mm and 158mm tall PA120, PS120, and FC140 will fit. My current 165mm tall cooler, will not.

Apologies. I just re-remeasured and it maxes out my calipers + some.

 

[tabascosauz]

Now... What the heck is the difference between these 2 listings?!

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-Peerless-Assassin-Cooler-TL-D12B/dp/B0CQQYJC5M/

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-Peerless-Assassin-Technology-1500RPM/dp/B0CQQ4RWDF/

Welcome to amazon, lol

When buying thermalright on amazon, there will always be 5000 listings for 1 product. As long as they're all Thermalright distributor #x, just pick the cheapest and/or fastest one.

 

[LabRat 891]

Welcome to amazon, lol

When buying thermalright on amazon, there will always be 5000 listings for 1 product. As long as they're all Thermalright distributor #x, just pick the cheapest and/or fastest one.

In looking through all of TR's options, I'm seeing that.


After some re-measuring, it appears the <159mm full-size dual-tower TR coolers will all fit.
Now, I'm just dizzingly confused by the options.

A. $34.59 Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE, 7x6mm Heat pipes

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-Phantom-Spirit-Cooler-Heatpipes/dp/B0BNGVWL98/

B. $35.39 Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120, 7x6mm Heat pipes

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-Phantom-TL-C12B-Cooling-Heatsink/dp/B0C4JH24WW/

C. $30.59 Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE, 6x6mm Heat Pipes

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09SD44SL1/

D. $34.59 Thermalright FC140 (would need to sub-out TL-D14X for an on-hand 12cm)

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-FC140-Cooler-Towers-Bearing/dp/B09Z8456H9/

All are 155-158mm dual-tower heatsinks. All are very attractively priced.

 

[tabascosauz]

@LabRat 891 out of caution I would still opt for PA120 or PS120 due to the slightly lower height. As long as your DIMMs aren't too tall, the fans can basically be flush with the top. Thermalright quality control is not the greatest and every dual tower I've gotten from them is physically "off" in some way or another (fortunately usually an easy fix with a bit of gentle force).

Also remember that the middle 140mm will stick out a bit no matter what fan you use, so 158mm FC140/FS140 will probably not fit 159mm so well.

The only one I haven't used is PS120 as it doesn't come in white, but @freeagent is the expert there. It is supposed to be their newest and best (especially the new EVO version with their GT-esque B/K12(?) fan).

 

[LabRat 891]

@LabRat 891 out of caution I would still opt for PA120 or PS120 due to the slightly lower height. As long as your DIMMs aren't too tall, the fans can basically be flush with the top.

Agreed.

Thermalright quality control is not the greatest and every dual tower I've gotten from them is physically "off" in some way or another (fortunately usually an easy fix with a bit of gentle force).

I've come to assume that from all HSF manus. TBQH, I have a 'nostalgic softspot' for TR.

Also remember that the middle 140mm will stick out a bit no matter what fan you use, so 158mm FC140/FS140 will probably not fit 159mm so well.

I'd have to replace the 14cm fan w/ a 12cm.
You're right though, it's 'pushing it' on height.

The only one I haven't used is PS120 as it doesn't come in white, but @freeagent is the expert there. It is supposed to be their newest and best (especially the new EVO version with their GT-esque B/K12(?) fan).

His recc. would probably be the PS120Evo

I have one running under a PS120 EVO. It handles my 58X3D with no trouble at all.

Just my opinion here, but I think old cooler designs cannot handle modern CPUs.

I have pretty much all of the upper end Thermalright coolers, they are impressive.

I also have some old ones that were impressive.. not so much anymore

Edit:

I also use SYY-157, it is cheap, and it is the bestest.. or up there with them.

I didn't think it was worth the few $ more but, after looking @ the fans' specs, it looks worth it

Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 EVO Review: This isn’t a competition. This is a massacre.

As long as it will fit in your case, this is the air cooler you should probably buy.

www.tomshardware.com

 

[Pictus]

A test made with the 5800X, not with the 5800X3D.

 

[LabRat 891]

A test made with the 5800X, not with the 5800X3D.

Review: Phantom Spirit 120 SE vs Phantom Spirit 120 Evo CPU Coolers

Compares Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE to the Thermalright using the Phantom Spirit 120 Evo . Tests are done across different CPU loads and fan speeds and machine learning is used to help break down the performance.

pcanalytics.com

Just was going through his vids, and THG's review.

I think the PS120Evo will be the choice.
Anything bigger, is also taller (and not necessarily a better performer).

 

[tabascosauz]

Review: Phantom Spirit 120 SE vs Phantom Spirit 120 Evo CPU Coolers

Compares Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE to the Thermalright using the Phantom Spirit 120 Evo . Tests are done across different CPU loads and fan speeds and machine learning is used to help break down the performance.

pcanalytics.com

Just was going through his vids, and THG's review.

I think the PS120Evo will be the choice.
Anything bigger, is also taller (and not necessarily a better performer).

The K12 seems to be TR's second attempt at a conventional A12x25 clone with regular materials. Seems to push lots of air but so did its predecessor (B12). Looks like the B12 (especially B12 Extreme)'s major noise problem remains, also rated out to 2150rpm.

All in all, if it's not too expensive, I think it's an attractive-looking upgrade to the PS120. Again, while it is perfectly valid (and probably only right) to test coolers on Intel, keep in mind that any gains basically will not translate to X3D at all, starting at say, the Fuma 3 onwards in the chart.

 

[dgianstefani]

Doing a fan swap on an cheap cooler will most likely get you 95% of the way as a much more expensive cooler. NF-A12x25 or Phanteks T30 come to mind.

If you're serious about X3D temps, there's no way around using liquid metal, and/or delidding. The bottleneck is the heat transfer from the chiplet to the cooler, not the cooler, which is borderline irrelevant with X3D as long as you have something past a bundled stock cooler, less so for the higher wattage dual CCD non X3D parts.

Crazy I know delidding Zen, but you actually get significant benefits even reusing the stock IHS (but with liquid metal on both sides) With Zen 4 you can also get something like AM5 Upgrade Heatspreader from Thermal Grizzly, but that's not relevant to AM4.

I've had 3700X, 3900X, 5800X3D, 5950X, 7800X3D, coolers have been the least of my cooling concerns, mitigating AMD's chiplet/IHS design has been priority #1. Although, there is something to be said for watercooling as the rapid water flow keeps the delta between coldplate and IHS higher, which helps even the IHS bottleneck slightly.

No, the way to improve 5800X3D thermals is to improve thermal transfer between CPU and heatsink, and use curve optimizer and Vcore offset...there's no point trying to speculate what will work best based on die layout. The Intel pictures have no relevance whatsoever, the orientation is the same but the single Zen 3 CCD is a tiny thing and you will not really find any orientation more satisfactory than another. These aren't direct heatpipe contact coolers so heatpipe orientation is not that big a deal. It might be a more relevant question for a 5900X or 5950X.

If you really want the best still, then pick something with more heatpipes, even if the difference will be negligible. FC140 and FS140 fat heatpipes look like they'd help Ryzen but they really don't.

FC140 and FS140 are 158mm coolers. Any further protrusion from a 140mm fan is in addition to 158mm on the heatsink. PA120/PS120 get a bit closer at about 154-155mm.

There's also the new PA120 mini, which is very similar to the SS135, again 135mm. It has more heatsink mass than the SS135. Also more heatsink mass than the old Silver Arrow 130, so the PA120 mini is probably the best bet.

Height limited coolers are the likes of NH-C14S (~142mm) or SS135 (135mm), and are not "top tier". C14S would need a vented panel, but SS135 doesn't have any special requirements. Either of them will still provide U12S-level cooling under ideal conditions. Which is fine for the 5800X3D, "more" cooling isn't always superior as one would expect. If you have bad luck of the draw and get a 5800X3D that just runs hot or has poor internal IHS contact, then you could waterblock it with a top of the line block and it still wouldn't change anything.

I agree with everything you said except this, waterblocking with a good loop does improve even these scenarios.

I've got pix of the delidding process, it's only scary when you think about it. Doing it is rather straightforward.

 

[Melvis]

I got mine running on a U9S from Noctua with 2 fans and I just put a -30 offset and it maxes out now at 80c with a 4.4+ GHz all core, the -30 offset is the way to go honestly.

 

[GerKNG]

well X3Ds run Hot.
nothing wrong with it, it'll run at 90°C today and in 10 years.

 

[freeagent]

Mine barely hits 80 with Linpack..

Edit:

Phantom Spirit is a bit stronger than FC140.

 

[LabRat 891]

Mine barely hits 80 with Linpack..

Edit:

Phantom Spirit is a bit stronger than FC140.

Doing a fan swap on an cheap cooler will most likely get you 95% of the way as a much more expensive cooler. NF-A12x25 or Phanteks T30 come to mind.

I'd considered the TR PS120(vanilla) at ~$35 but, for ~$7 more I got the PS120Evo with 'better fans'.
At least for the initial 'rebuild' I'm not much caring about silence, more about tolerability.
Ex. I've got a 'stack' of old SanAce 12x3.8cm blowers. Since they're less than an amp apiece, my X570's mobo DC-controls them fine. Those blowers, will be main case ventilation. 2x Intake 1x Exhaust.
Even @ 100% the frequency range of the noise they make, is very tolerable. (sounds like a 'running system' of old, not 'whiney' or 'annoying'.)

If you're serious about X3D temps, there's no way around using liquid metal, and/or delidding. The bottleneck is the heat transfer from the chiplet to the cooler, not the cooler, which is borderline irrelevant with X3D as long as you have something past a bundled stock cooler, less so for the higher wattage dual CCD non X3D parts.

Crazy I know delidding Zen, but you actually get significant benefits even reusing the stock IHS (but with liquid metal on both sides) With Zen 4 you can also get something like AM5 Upgrade Heatspreader from Thermal Grizzly, but that's not relevant to AM4.

I've had 3700X, 3900X, 5800X3D, 5950X, 7800X3D, coolers have been the least of my cooling concerns, mitigating AMD's chiplet/IHS design has been priority #1. Although, there is something to be said for watercooling as the rapid water flow keeps the delta between coldplate and IHS higher, which helps even the IHS bottleneck slightly.

I've got pix of the delidding process, it's only scary when you think about it. Doing it is rather straightforward.

Makes sense. IIRC, one of the 'issues' that arose w/ X3D was uneven chiplet height (probably) 'leveled out' using fill.
Also, similar issue to the Ivy Bridge CPUs that, I have de-lidded and LM'd before.

However, I am neither lapping nor de-lidding my 5800X3D until warranty has expired. I had to use AMD's warranty on my 5600, and am quite 'shy' about (openly) invalidating it.

I'd be willing to mount the new cooler to the X3D's IHS w/ LM TIM(on-hand), but that's about it. (leaving the MCM-IHS interface un-touched)
Even that, is likely to (eventually) damage the markings in the nickel-plated IHS (voiding warranty).

 

[tabascosauz]

I agree with everything you said except this, waterblocking with a good loop does improve even these scenarios.

I've got pix of the delidding process, it's only scary when you think about it. Doing it is rather straightforward.

I said, for individual samples. We all know some 5800X3Ds run significantly hotter than others. If you want to add in delidding, then sure, delidding solves the problem at its source, but that's a separate idea altogether.

I'd considered the TR PS120(vanilla) at ~$35 but, for ~$7 more I got the PS120Evo with 'better fans'.
At least for the initial 'rebuild' I'm not much caring about silence, more about tolerability.
Ex. I've got a 'stack' of old SanAce 12x3.8cm blowers. Since they're less than an amp apiece, my X570's mobo DC-controls them fine. Those blowers, will be main case ventilation. 2x Intake 1x Exhaust.
Even @ 100% the frequency range of the noise they make, is very tolerable. (sounds like a 'running system' of old, not 'whiney' or 'annoying'.)

Makes sense. IIRC, one of the 'issues' that arose w/ X3D was uneven chiplet height (probably) 'leveled out' using fill.
Also, similar issue to the Ivy Bridge CPUs that, I have de-lidded and LM'd before.

However, I am neither lapping nor de-lidding my 5800X3D until warranty has expired. I had to use AMD's warranty on my 5600, and am quite 'shy' about (openly) invalidating it.

I'd be willing to mount the new cooler to the X3D's IHS w/ LM TIM(on-hand), but that's about it. (leaving the MCM-IHS interface un-touched)
Even that, is likely to (eventually) damage the markings in the nickel-plated IHS (voiding warranty).

Could give Kryosheet a try if you want to burn some money. Supposed to be pretty close to LM.

Mine barely hits 80 with Linpack..

Yeah but like, you're cheating with a good CPU and the weather

 

[LabRat 891]

I said, for individual samples. We all know some 5800X3Ds run significantly hotter than others. If you want to add in delidding, then sure, delidding solves the problem at its source, but that's a separate idea altogether.

I was taken aback by just how much hotter. My long time friend w/ an OC'd 5800X has a lot easier of a time.

Could give Kryosheet a try if you want to burn some money. Supposed to be pretty close to LM.

Considering, (before knowing the height issue) the prospect of spending $15 for fresh TIM pushed me towards a new $30+ cooler, instead...
I'll re-research how to properly apply Galinstan; I have a small vial and a tube of it on-hand still.
(stopped using it after spilling it on RAM, and watching it get 'pulled' under the RAM chips into the BGAs | RIP DDR3 SODIMM)

Yeah but like, you're cheating with a good CPU and the weather

Personally, I love cheating. Turn the A/C on in my little ~10'x10' room, and my system temps plummet.

 

[freeagent]

I said, for individual samples. We all know some 5800X3Ds run significantly hotter than others. If you want to add in delidding, then sure, delidding solves the problem at its source, but that's a separate idea altogether.



Could give Kryosheet a try if you want to burn some money. Supposed to be pretty close to LM.



Yeah but like, you're cheating with a good CPU and the weather

Lol maybe

Ambient was 19 or 20c

Edit:

18c.. so yeah maybe.. but I also have a Torrent..