Steam Deck 2 and all future handhelds will never get it right.

[Space Lynx]

Hubris: Overbearing pride or presumption

Presumption of everyone wanting a higher resolution display.

Their assumption that you can just upscale content from say 800p to 1200p or higher, and it will still look good is nonsense, nothing looks better than native. I have tried Lossless Scaling, Nvidia drivers, AMD drivers, and just in-game setting resolution to lower but play it borderless windowed, I have tried all the settings in Lossless Scaling. Even if you run a game say at 800p on a 1200p handheld, it won't look as good as native 800p, thus making the experience just bad enough to warrant the claim, yeah this 1200p screen is better...

My personal phenomenological lived experience of the 800p Deck OLED screen proving to me that is all I need or want, combined with the limiting factor of how powerful any APU can or ever will be... I'd rather be able to play games at higher refresh rates and longer battery life, or a steady 60 fps at the very least, rather than have my screen upped to 1200p or beyond like other handhelds do.


Retro Game Corps gaming benchmarks, timestamped,

source ^

Literally no gains in FPS vs original steam deck because native 1200p hinders the gains of the improved APU, as is expected. Deck only has 800p to run games, sure there is 5 fps here or there difference, but that is not enough to warrant a claim the device is superior imo. The main good thing to come out of this video is that running games on SteamOS on the same Z1 Extreme chipset nets many more fps vs using Windows on the same device. So, that is awesome Steam was able to achieve that with SteamOS, however, if Steam Deck 2 has a screen resolution that is higher than the current model OLED Deck, none of those gains on say a Z2 Extreme chipset will be realized fully.

@Nordic Just thought I'd tag you for your thoughts, since you are the Deck Clubhouse starter.

Conclusion: Give me a Steam Deck 2, same form factor, same screen (if possible minimize the bezels, but if that adds too much to the cost nm), just change the APU in it to the Z2 Extreme or a better APU. This would be the optimal handheld experience imo. Or sell two models of the future handhelds, one that uses a native 800p OLED just like Deck OLED uses, and then one that uses 1200p or higher, and let the fools who want to play at 40 fps play at 40 fps, while those of us who want a smoother experience can do the other option.

This will never happen though, sadly, if you look at any other handheld, they all say the Deck OLED screen of 800p has to go, and it absolutely does not, people are just fools. The Deck OLED 800p is probably the only great handheld that will ever exist, because it did not fall into this hubris, but I am guessing the Deck 2 will follow suit with the other companies.

If Valve ever reads this, and I know they won't, but if they did, I would want them to know I will give them my money if they put a Z2 Extreme APU or better chip in the exact same design as the current Deck OLED... my God, I bet I could use the watt slider down to 3 watts or even 2 watts on FFX HD Remaster and have 15+ hr battery life, because Deck OLED allows me to play it at 5 watt cap and get about 10 hrs battery life (eat your heart out Switch 2 battery life)

Sadly, this was the beginning of an era, and most likely the end of an era. STEAM DECK ORIGINAL, THE GOAT! I'm afraid my handheld days are over, because the hubris of man knows no bounds, and the gains will never be realized.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Hubris: Overbearing pride or presumption

While true, I think I like the definition from Ancient Greek a bit better.

Hubris; 'pride, insolence, outrage', is extreme or excessive pride or dangerous overconfidence and complacency, often in combination with (or synonymous with) arrogance.

In other words, hubris is synonymous with "marketing weenie".

handhelds will never get it right due to the hubris of mankind; such is our nature.

So, IMO, they will never get it right due to the hubris of "marketing weenies", such as "their" nature is to assume consumers will automatically accept and completely embrace what they say we will want - without ever asking us what we want.

And of course, what is the primary objective for marketing weenies? Greater profit.

 

[Pets4Ever]

Its pretty similar to the issue with phone manufacturers making phones thinner while the CPUs get more and more power-hungry. The giant camera bump in the back shouldn't exist, everything should be flush allowing for a thicker battery.

 

[LastDudeALive]

Conclusion: Give me a Steam Deck 2, same form factor, same screen (if possible minimize the bezels, but if that adds too much to the cost nm), just change the APU in it to the Z2 Extreme or a better APU.

Didn't Valve explicitly say it's going to be a while before the Steam Deck 2, because they're waiting for hardware to advance to the point where they can make a truly innovative successor? That's their entire MO, doing a refresh with a newer APU and pushing into the incredibly crowded current market for handhelds (especially with Xbox entering into the field) would be silly.

My guess is that they're waiting for APUs with 2nm Zen 6 or Zen 7 and UDNA, or for Intel to come up with an equivalent on 18A (and it's a longshot, but if x86 to ARM translation layers get as seamless as Proton, I'd be interested in an Nvidia SoC on 2nm as well if they can give Valve a good price and the performance is good as well). They probably also want improvements in battery technology, and to come up with another innovative feature like the touchpads.

All that to say, I think we're at least 2-3 years from the Steam Deck 2.

 

[Space Lynx]

And of course, what is the primary objective for marketing weenies? Greater profit.

This doesn't seem logical, as an 800p OLED screen would likely be more cost-effective to produce at scale. They could still raise the price, and I would be willing to pay for it. Higher resolution screens probably, well I assume, regardless of panel type cost more money.

Regarding the definition, yes, I just used the quick definition from merriam webster or w.e it is called. I also understand the ancient Greek deffintion is used for more severe/critical commentary. However, since is the birth and the death of the GOAT, I thought it a worthwhile term to use.

Its pretty similar to the issue with phone manufacturers making phones thinner while the CPUs get more and more power-hungry. The giant camera bump in the back shouldn't exist, everything should be flush allowing for a thicker battery.

Yeah, I have a Pixel 9a and I like that it has a bigger battery/flush camera bump. I think vast majority of people use phone cases though, so the bump becomes flush with most cases anyway. I have never experienced my 9a "feeling hot" like my old samsung phone did though, so I am also assuming that the 9a has more cooling design features, I am unsure though.

Didn't Valve explicitly say it's going to be a while before the Steam Deck 2, because they're waiting for hardware to advance to the point where they can make a truly innovative successor? That's their entire MO, doing a refresh with a newer APU and pushing into the incredibly crowded current market for handhelds (especially with Xbox entering into the field) would be silly.

My guess is that they're waiting for APUs with 2nm Zen 6 or Zen 7 and UDNA, or for Intel to come up with an equivalent on 18A (and it's a longshot, but if x86 to ARM translation layers get as seamless as Proton, I'd be interested in an Nvidia SoC on 2nm as well if they can give Valve a good price and the performance is good as well). They probably also want improvements in battery technology, and to come up with another innovative feature like the touchpads.

All that to say, I think we're at least 2-3 years from the Steam Deck 2.

You are correct, but it still doesn't change my point. I'd rather have a 800p 120hz+ OLED and increased battery life, and future proof wiggle room on future AAA titles to boot. It will come with a higher resolution screen, I'd bet money on it, that is the only point I am trying to make. Take a really old indie game, now cap its wattage on the future steam deck 2 and lets say this game doesn't benefit from high refresh, cap it at 60 fps, you can expect 20+ hours battery life, because the demand on an advanced APU is so small on this future hypothetical advanced APU they are waiting for.

My point is stop it with the screen resolution bumps, when 800p current form factor is plenty. Give us better battery life at the same weight (Deck OLED is perfect in weight/not hard to hold for long periods of time), and there are are lots of variables that improve by keeping it at 800p, is all I am saying.

 

[Bill_Bright]

This doesn't seem logical, as an 800p OLED screen would likely be more cost-effective to produce at scale.

LOL

Are you really suggesting marketing weenies are logical people?

How much something costs to make is much LESS important than how much profit they can make from it - based also on demand. And sadly, demand is determined, much in part, by how good the marketing weenies are at convincing users they really "need" that product - when they don't.

Who really "needs" a $1400 cell phone? Yet lines form around the block whenever a new one is released. Many claim it is about the camera. I say if you "need" a professional camera, buy a professional camera!

Look at Titanium (and now Ruby!) certified PSUs. NOBODY "needs" a Titanium (or even Platinum, and especially not Ruby) certified PSU. But some are convinced they do, and are willing to plop down lots of extra money just to get them. Why? Because marketing weenies have convinced them they need it. Why? Because there's more profit in them.

Same with "pure sinewave" UPS. NOBODY "needs" a pure sinewave UPS for their computers but the marketing weenies for those pure sinewave UPS have convinced people they do. They don't! Today's PSUs work just fine with approximated sinewave outputs - and have for decades.

Marketing weenies have convinced some people they are low-life scumbags if they don't have the "latest and greatest". And marketing weenies are trained to capitalize on [back to your point] the "hubris of mankind" seeking, and willing to pay a pretty penny for, "bragging rights".

 

[oxrufiioxo]

LOL

Are you really suggesting marketing weenies are logical people?

How much something costs to make is much LESS important than how much profit they can make from it - based also on demand. And sadly, demand is determined, much in part, by how good the marketing weenies are at convincing users they really "need" that product - when they don't.

Who really "needs" a $1400 cell phone? Yet lines form around the block whenever a new one is released. Many claim it is about the camera. I say if you "need" a professional camera, buy a professional camera!

Look at Titanium (and now Ruby!) certified PSUs. NOBODY "needs" a Titanium (or even Platinum, and especially not Ruby) certified PSU. But some are convinced they do, and are willing to plop down lots of extra money just to get them. Why? Because marketing weenies have convinced them they need it. Why? Because there's more profit in them.

Same with "pure sinewave" UPS. NOBODY "needs" a pure sinewave UPS for their computers but the marketing weenies for those pure sinewave UPS have convinced people they do. They don't! Today's PSUs work just fine with approximated sinewave outputs - and have for decades.

Marketing weenies have convinced some people they are low-life scumbags if they don't have the "latest and greatest". And marketing weenies are trained to capitalize on [back to your point] the "hubris of mankind" seeking, and willing to pay a pretty penny for, "bragging rights".

Plus this is a very niche market outside of the switch 1/2 so the average consumer is going to see a higher number ie 1080p and think it must be better. Switch 2 has one of the most trash screens I've even seen and it'll still sell 10x-20x any windows/Linux based handheld and then Nintendo will refresh it and a bunch of people will buy it again.

Valve will likely do the same with steamdeck 2 come out with a meh lcd model and act like it was the only way to hit a reasonable 500 ish launch price and then 1-2 years later come out with a steamdeck 2 fomo edition.

These companies priority list.

1. Money
2. Money
3. Money
4. Money
5. Money
.
.
.
9999. Consumer.

 

[Pets4Ever]

Yeah, I have a Pixel 9a and I like that it has a bigger battery/flush camera bump. I think vast majority of people use phone cases though, so the bump becomes flush with most cases anyway. I have never experienced my 9a "feeling hot" like my old samsung phone did though, so I am also assuming that the 9a has more cooling design features, I am unsure though.

Well that's nice that someone did it finally! I know cases cover the bumps, but they do it by adding more material when that space could just as well be full of battery.

Regarding the hot phone thing, there are a lot of different reasons a phone can get hot and not all of them are the fault of the phone's overall hardware and design.

- Poor cell signal (phone boots transmission power generating more heat)
- Aging battery
- Operating System bug
- Background app activity
- gps usage by some apps
- malware
- misbehaving webpages in browser

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I generally agree with OP's premise from a 10,000ft level.

Keeping the display the same res while upping processing power would be more useful than upping screen res and processing power, which would result in minimal visual improvements while simultaneously limiting performance improvements.

That said, I think a 1080p handheld is likely the sweet spot that balances low performance overhead, a standard commonly used resolution (that looks great on a 5-7" screen), low cost, and plenty of room for performance improvements.

I do think the marketing numbers stuff does get a little goofy unless you're primarily working with text on your handheld (phones primarily). A gaming handheld does not need a 1440P or 2160P screen.

 

[Bill_Bright]

For the record, I too totally agree with Space Lynx when it comes to the technical points.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I generally agree with OP's premise from a 10,000ft level.

Keeping the display the same res while upping processing power would be more useful than upping screen res and processing power, which would result in minimal visual improvements while simultaneously limiting performance improvements.

That said, I think a 1080p handheld is likely the sweet spot that balances low performance overhead, a standard commonly used resolution (that looks great on a 5-7" screen), low cost, and plenty of room for performance improvements.

I do think the marketing numbers stuff does get a little goofy unless you're primarily working with text on your handheld (phones primarily). A gaming handheld does not need a 1440P or 2160P screen.

100% agree as well, I would take a quality screen over higher resolution but I would prefer to have both some 2d games what I'd likely play most on an underpowered handheld look fantastic at 1080p on a small screen.

Honestly if not for the terrible screen I'd rather have a switch 2 than a pc handheld though.

 

[Space Lynx]

That said, I think a 1080p handheld is likely the sweet spot that balances low performance overhead, a standard commonly used resolution (that looks great on a 5-7" screen), low cost, and plenty of room for performance improvements.

Only reason I didn't say 1080p, is because 800p is 16:10 format, and it really enhances a handheld. I don't know why this is the case, but it does seem like 16:10 format on laptops and handhelds is very common here lately for many brands. Also, since SteamOS has to be so highly optimized, it means things like EMUDECK, and other software options would be an easier transition for a new powerful device (again I am assuming, I am not a coder), but SteamOS has a lot compatibility across the board, and I imagine that would be easier to transfer over to the exact same screen size. Another bonus I have not thought of until now.

100% agree as well, I would take a quality screen over higher resolution but I would prefer to have both some 2d games what I'd likely play most on an underpowered handheld look fantastic at 1080p on a small screen.

Honestly if not for the terrible screen I'd rather have a switch 2 than a pc handheld though.

Switch 2 OLED might be worth it a few years from now, but the fact Nintendo games never seem to go on sale means I probably still will never get one. I have like 500 games on my Steam backlog still compatible with SteamOS, so the value just favors a PC handheld. Especially since Humble Bundle each month I get for $9, epic games store free weekly games, amazon prime free weekly games, and all my gog games can be played through Heroic Launcher on SteamOS easily as well, that doubles my backlog to like 1100+

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Only reason I didn't say 1080p, is because 800p is 16:10 format, and it really enhances a handheld. I don't know why this is the case, but it does seem like 16:10 format on laptops and handhelds is very common here lately for many brands. Also, since SteamOS has to be so highly optimized, it means things like EMUDECK, and other software options would be an easier transition for a new powerful device (again I am assuming, I am not a coder), but SteamOS has a lot compatibility across the board, and I imagine that would be easier to transfer over to the exact same screen size. Another bonus I have not thought of until now.



Switch 2 OLED might be worth it a few years from now, but the fact Nintendo games never seem to go on sale means I probably still will never get one. I have like 500 games on my Steam backlog still compatible with SteamOS, so the value just favors a PC handheld. Especially since Humble Bundle each month I get for $9, epic games store free weekly games, amazon prime free weekly games, and all my gog games can be played through Heroic Launcher on SteamOS easily as well, that doubles my backlog to like 1100+

Yeah I prefer 16:10 on a small screen as well my ROG flow laptop is 1200p and I doubt I would want to switch to 16:9 on somthing I use for browsing the web/work etc, but for gaming specifically I'm ok with 16:9 as long as the screen is high quality.

 

[Space Lynx]

Yeah I prefer 16:10 on a small screen as well my ROG flow laptop is 1200p and I doubt I would want to switch to 16:9 on somthing I use for browsing the web/work etc, but for gaming specifically I'm ok with 16:9 as long as the screen is high quality.

Depending how big the APU update will be, I am not opposed to maybe 1080p... I am hesitant though, because then its like well 1200p isn't much more... but then we are getting into all the variables I don't really want to compromise on all over again.

One thing that does intrigue me though is that monitors desktop and laptop (high end ones) offer physical switches on the screen itself, where you can turn an OLED native resolution into 4k or 1080p, or 1440p, etc. While these are not perfect on desktops, the ultra high end Razer laptop that switches between Native resolutions is apparently just as good as 1:1 native...

Not sure how much it would add to the cost, but this might be an answer for future handhelds, people can pick and choose which native resolution they want (I think this is limited to OLED screens, I am not sure though).

 

[oxrufiioxo]

One thing that does intrigue me though is that monitors desktop and laptop (high end ones) offer physical switches on the screen itself, where you can turn an OLED native resolution into 4k or 1080p, or 1440p, etc. While these are not perfect on desktops, the ultra high end Razer laptop that switches between Native resolutions is apparently just as good as 1:1 native...

Not sure how much it would add to the cost, but this might be an answer for future handhelds, people can pick and choose which native resolution they want (I think this is limited to OLED screens, I am not sure though).

Unless these explode into the mainstream I don't see that happening these are already pricey with way outdated hardware and at least from what we are seeing on both the console and pc front things are getting more expensive not cheaper like in the past when we would drop a node. Expect a 2nm APU to cost 2x-3x what a 5-6nm one would it's why we still haven't seen a big APU in the desktop space the cost on top of it not really being upgradable has made manufacturers find it unappealing. Strix Halo is the first but that is hard to find outside of a laptop and is expensive and uses older GPU technology on top of all that and would be terrible for a handheld.

The partnership with both M$/Sony if they decide to do handhelds will help it means AMD will invest more heavily into this sort of technology but outside of Nintendo and their strong for kids branding I don't see either finding all that much success, Most who portable game would rather just use their phone and I think that is going to be a hard thing for any of these companies to convince enough people otherwise.

The biggest hurdle is people don't want to be stuck near an outlet so these devices need to use less than 20w and closer to 10w really and to make huge gains at that power level and also make it somewhat affordable I don't see happening.

 

[freeagent]

The problem is tech keeps advancing.

When tech cant advance anymore, and we are all using the same hardware, then it will be better..

But until then, you just gotta make due with what you will let yourself spend.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

The problem is tech keeps advancing.

I don't think it will stop advancing I think people will be priced out of any advancement we got 1 card that is faster than everything else from the previous generation and it cost an arm and a leg everything below it is meh AF.

We got cpus from intel that went backwards at gaming

and we got Zen5% lmao

Gamers are just racking up the L's thankfully 9000X3D was ok if not we would be 0 for 4 but 1 for 4 still sucks lol.

 

[JustBenching]

Hubris: Overbearing pride or presumption

Presumption of everyone wanting a higher resolution display.

Their assumption that you can just upscale content from say 800p to 1200p or higher, and it will still look good is nonsense, nothing looks better than native. I have tried Lossless Scaling, Nvidia drivers, AMD drivers, and just in-game setting resolution to lower but play it borderless windowed, I have tried all the settings in Lossless Scaling. Even if you run a game say at 800p on a 1200p handheld, it won't look as good as native 800p, thus making the experience just bad enough to warrant the claim, yeah this 1200p screen is better...

My personal phenomenological lived experience of the 800p Deck OLED screen proving to me that is all I need or want, combined with the limiting factor of how powerful any APU can or ever will be... I'd rather be able to play games at higher refresh rates and longer battery life, or a steady 60 fps at the very least, rather than have my screen upped to 1200p or beyond like other handhelds do.


Retro Game Corps gaming benchmarks, timestamped,

source ^
View attachment 405387

Literally no gains in FPS vs original steam deck because native 1200p hinders the gains of the improved APU, as is expected. Deck only has 800p to run games, sure there is 5 fps here or there difference, but that is not enough to warrant a claim the device is superior imo. The main good thing to come out of this video is that running games on SteamOS on the same Z1 Extreme chipset nets many more fps vs using Windows on the same device. So, that is awesome Steam was able to achieve that with SteamOS, however, if Steam Deck 2 has a screen resolution that is higher than the current model OLED Deck, none of those gains on say a Z2 Extreme chipset will be realized fully.

@Nordic Just thought I'd tag you for your thoughts, since you are the Deck Clubhouse starter.

Conclusion: Give me a Steam Deck 2, same form factor, same screen (if possible minimize the bezels, but if that adds too much to the cost nm), just change the APU in it to the Z2 Extreme or a better APU. This would be the optimal handheld experience imo. Or sell two models of the future handhelds, one that uses a native 800p OLED just like Deck OLED uses, and then one that uses 1200p or higher, and let the fools who want to play at 40 fps play at 40 fps, while those of us who want a smoother experience can do the other option.

This will never happen though, sadly, if you look at any other handheld, they all say the Deck OLED screen of 800p has to go, and it absolutely does not, people are just fools. The Deck OLED 800p is probably the only great handheld that will ever exist, because it did not fall into this hubris, but I am guessing the Deck 2 will follow suit with the other companies.

If Valve ever reads this, and I know they won't, but if they did, I would want them to know I will give them my money if they put a Z2 Extreme APU or better chip in the exact same design as the current Deck OLED... my God, I bet I could use the watt slider down to 3 watts or even 2 watts on FFX HD Remaster and have 15+ hr battery life, because Deck OLED allows me to play it at 5 watt cap and get about 10 hrs battery life (eat your heart out Switch 2 battery life)

Sadly, this was the beginning of an era, and most likely the end of an era. STEAM DECK ORIGINAL, THE GOAT! I'm afraid my handheld days are over, because the hubris of man knows no bounds, and the gains will never be realized.

1200p with dlss looks way better (its nowhere near) than 800p native with similar performance so your whole argument is based on flawed assumptions.

 

[freeagent]

I don't think it will stop advancing I think people will be priced out of any advancement we got 1 card that is faster than everything else from the previous generation and it cost an arm and a leg everything below it is meh AF.

We got cpus from intel that went backwards at gaming

and we got Zen5% lmao

Gamers are just racking up the L's thankfully 9000X3D was ok if not we would be 0 for 4 but 1 for 4 still sucks lol.

I was thinking like after we bomb ourselves to the stone age and start over again.. like some kinda utopia tech that does not exist.. Jetsons type stuff.. or maybe like from that movie Gamer haha..

 

[oxrufiioxo]

1200p with dlss looks way better (its nowhere near) than 800p native with similar performance so your whole argument is based on flawed assumptions.

That's the other thing I believe when I handheld get's either DLSS or FSR4 it will be just fine at 1080p/1200p, That's likely the only way we will see meaningful gains in the handheld market the problem is no handhelds support either other than Switch and even it uses some trash version of DLSS it seems.

I was thinking like after we bomb ourselves to the stone age and start over again.. like some kinda utopia tech that does not exist.. Jetsons type stuff.. or maybe like from that movie Gamer haha..

We don't even have to nuke ourselves just Nuke AI and I bet we would see much better gaming products lmao.

 

[JustBenching]

That's the other thing I believe when I handheld get's either DLSS or FSR4 it will be just fine at 1080p/1200p

Id be willing to bet that even fsr3 at 1200p would walk all over 800p native. Its almost if not always better to go for a higher resolution screen and use upscaling than go for a lower one and play natively

 

[Space Lynx]

1200p with dlss looks way better (its nowhere near) than 800p native with similar performance so your whole argument is based on flawed assumptions.

yeah and how does that impact battery life? nvidia is in a handheld besides the switch 2 which gets 2 hrs battery life? dlss applies to all games? no, you have not proven wrong any of my points. Also, nvidia is not supported in SteamOS, which is the only OS that I care about in a handheld. 4k at 8 inches would also look better, but it doesn't prove wrong any of my points I made.

 

[freeagent]

We don't even have to nuke ourselves just Nuke AI and I bet we would see much better gaming products lmao.

If you haven't seen the movie you should check it out. It is old.. like 2012 but its still pretty good.

/ramble

 

[Space Lynx]

Id be willing to bet that even fsr3 at 1200p would walk all over 800p native. Its almost if not always better to go for a higher resolution screen and use upscaling than go for a lower one and play natively

FSR is a blurry mess and does not interest me. Most of the games I want to play on handheld are backlog games that do not support FSR or DLSS anyway, I just want a nicer handheld to play them at higher refresh rate and higher battery life, none of you seem to understand that though.

 

[JustBenching]

yeah and how does that impact battery life? nvidia is in a handheld besides the switch 2 which gets 2 hrs battery life? dlss applies to all games? no, you have not proven wrong any of my points. Also, nvidia is not supported in SteamOS, which is the only OS that I care about in a handheld. 4k at 8 inches would also look better, but it doesn't prove wrong any of my points I made.

It doesnt affect baterry life. Dlss was just an example to counteract your thesis that handhelds shouldnt have higher res and that upscalers dont look better than native
Thats absolutely wrong.