Editorial Linux Community Hit by the Blight of Social Justice Warfare, A Great Purge is Coming

[Valantar]

SJWs love vague platitudes like you just said there: define "fair" in the context of the Linux Foundation. Example: a very polite person may submit terrible code. "Fair" does not mean that this person's feelings can't be hurt because the code is rejected. On the other hand, an asshole submits fantastic code. "Fair" does not mean rejecting the code because the coder was an asshole.

a) You accuse me of presenting vague platitudes, and respond with your own vague platitude - that fairness depends on context. Have you really not gotten this from what I've been saying already? Have I been promoting some sort of Platonic ideal of fairness?
b) Your example is entirely too narrow, presents a black-and-white situation in an area where shades of grey dominate, and very conveniently omits the situations in which a code of conduct would be relevant - in fact, you're selectively presenting the few examples in which it wouldn't. Here's a far more relevant example: A coder submits good code, but it has a few flaws. The coder is then hung out to dry by an asshole who isn't capable of giving feedback in a constructive way. Two main outcomes are realistic here: the asshole is confronted and asked to change their behaviour (and hopefully complies), or the code is abandoned as the initial coder seeks out an environment where work is given proper feedback. The former alternative is fair, meritocratic, and conducive to creating a productive work environment for most of those involved. The latter is counterproductive and damaging both to the community and individuals involved.

As said many times before, "fairness" really has no relevance to the field of programming. The goal is to reach the best code humanly possible. That said, everyone should be respectful (not fair) of everyone else which is what the old Code of Conflict meant by "be excellent to each other."

You say "fairness has no relevance", yet keep promoting your own view of what constitutes fairness in this situation. The context-stripped, asocial meritocracy (yes, that's a contradiction, as meritocracy would imply a social context) that you're promoting is nothing more than an attempt at stripping out relevant context that's inconvenient to your views.

The whole situation (and it's cyclic nature) increasingly strikes me as juvenile.

At least we can agree to something. Crying "censorship!" and "thought police!" every time someone wants enforceable rules to ensure productive cooperation is indeed juvenile.

The below piece can quite explain SJW behavior in the U.S. I believe. Numerous liberal bastions of free speech, including the UC at Berkeley have had active successful attempts at silencing speakers and groups that don’t agree with their views. They have even cried about the bad people making them feel unsafe by subscribing to views not their own. Apparently free speech is only available to their SJW leaders who are not trying to make anything better for anyone but them and their offended sheep.

I'm in no way a fan of no-platforming (in fact, I'm quite adamant that it's fundamentally wrong - the effort should be spent convincing people that they shouldn't want to listen to (for example) Nazis, not in denying Nazis the right to speak. Not listening to Nazis ought to be obvious, but sadly it isn't for many people today.). Nor have I said that I am. My impression is that the people promoting no-platforming are a loud and visible but marginal group, but one that often succeeds in riling up tensions and gaining local attention by using some simple and effective tactics.

I disagree with you in my diagnosis of the root of the problem, though: if it wasn't for the rise of political extremism (particularly right-wing, as there are very few actual extremist left-wing organizations active today) over the last decade or two, this would never have happened. And it has nothing to do with coddling; it has to do with people (finally!) feeling safe enough to speak up against mistreatment and abuse, whether it's discrimination, rape, assault, domestic violence, homophobia, racism, or anything else, really. It might seem counter-intuitive that these developments have been parallel, but it's also logical - either can be seen as a reaction to the other. The main difference is that one party wants more liberty, justice and openness, while the other promotes regressive attitudes, hate, discrimination and xenophobia. I know which side I support, but I also have no problem saying when people I agree with in principle make mistakes or promote damaging policies (such as no-platforming). The problem here is that people seem to assume that anyone progressive must agree with all progressives, which is obviously not true. Which is also why I try to focus on the arguments presented by people here and not setting up straw-man arguments painting everyone else as a reactionary old-south racist or some such. I would appreciate if others here would offer the same respect, though.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

A coder submits good code, but it has a few flaws. The coder is then hung out to dry by an asshole who isn't capable of giving feedback in a constructive way. Two main outcomes are realistic here: the asshole is confronted and asked to change their behaviour (and hopefully complies), or the code is abandoned as the initial coder seeks out an environment where work is given proper feedback. The former alternative is fair, meritocratic, and conducive to creating a productive work environment for most of those involved. The latter is counterproductive and damaging both to the community and individuals involved.

Your scenario would imply that someone on the TAB is the asshole. In which case, Code of Conflict/Code of Conduct is the same (it's handed off to another member of the TAB to render judgement).

If a maintainer isn't doing their job then someone on TAB would deal with the situation.

The "fairness" component is opinion derived from the action the TAB member took and highly contextual.

You say "fairness has no relevance", yet keep promoting your own view of what constitutes fairness in this situation. The context-stripped, asocial meritocracy (yes, that's a contradiction, as meritocracy would imply a social context) that you're promoting is nothing more than an attempt at stripping out relevant context that's inconvenient to your views.

The meritocracy isn't going away. How the best code gets determined isn't changing.

Not listening to Nazis ought to be obvious, but sadly it isn't for many people today.).

Freedom of speech goes hand-in-hand with the right to be heard. Why the sudden surge of extreme right activists? Because of the surge in the extreme left activists. One rises in anger to counter the arguments of the other. Listening is the first step to addressing the problem.

if it wasn't for the rise of political extremism (particularly right-wing, as there are very few actual extremist left-wing organizations active today) over the last decade or two, this would never have happened.

Watch the video. They address this very point. TL;DW: you're wrong. The meteoric shift is on the left (especially in schools and campuses). Movement on the right is retaliatory (Trump getting elected is the most visible example). The fanatical population on the right are likely in the 10s of thousands (talking the people brandishing swastikas, KKK, etc.). Fanatical population on the left is in the 100s of thousands or millions (talking SJW, ELF, BLE, Anti-Fa, etc.).

And it has nothing to do with coddling; it has to do with people (finally!) feeling safe enough to speak up against mistreatment and abuse, whether it's discrimination, rape, assault, domestic violence, homophobia, racism, or anything else, really.

Bold go to the police. Underline depends on context but it may be covered under freedom of speech. If you don't feel safe going to the police then that's an institutional problem that need to be addressed (a lot of districts are actively working on it). Underlined could be covered under Department of Labor or consultation with a lawyer. Generally though, it's just humans being humans.

If you really have need of a "safe space," that's what they call a "restraining order." It travels with you. Much better.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I've never had to actively argue for the applicability of Occam's razor this many times in a single debate. It's rather weird.

If you think about it for moment, it is kinda funny.

 

[Aquinus]

A coder submits good code, but it has a few flaws. The coder is then hung out to dry by an asshole who isn't capable of giving feedback in a constructive way. Two main outcomes are realistic here: the asshole is confronted and asked to change their behaviour (and hopefully complies), or the code is abandoned as the initial coder seeks out an environment where work is given proper feedback. The former alternative is fair, meritocratic, and conducive to creating a productive work environment for most of those involved. The latter is counterproductive and damaging both to the community and individuals involved.

I don't accept PRs if I don't feel that it's a good idea and I'm increasingly harsh if brain-dead decisions are made. I have to agree with @FordGT90Concept on this one. If you do something really stupid (like branching off a branch that I actively didn't merge because of the issues, then making a PR for your code off that branch,) then yeah, I'm going to call the dev out on it. Either the dev didn't know what they were doing which is a problem or the dev actively knew what he was doing which is also a problem. Torvalds' is an asshole but, the things he complains about and rants about tend to have merit.

If you do something stupid that's going to impact every user and every contributor, I have no problem saying "what the f**k were you thinking?" In fact, I saw one like that yesterday where if I accepted it, it would have broke the build because the moron merged the wrong branch into their own with a bunch of stuff that's unrelated to their work and is also half broken. Something like that deserves scrutiny and I'm not going to sugarcoat it because, the gravity of the problem needs to be recognized.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Torvalds' is an asshole but, the things he complains about and rants about tend to have merit.

If you do something stupid that's going to impact every user and every contributor, I have no problem saying "what the f**k were you thinking?"

Something like that deserves scrutiny and I'm not going to sugarcoat it because, the gravity of the problem needs to be recognized.

This. Linus doesn't generally open his mouth unless he's got something to say and knows was he's talking about. Bringing glaring problems to light sometimes needs negative response to spotlight the seriousness of the problem. Anyone who thinks Linus is just a loudmouthed a-hole is either an easily offended special-snowflake or is ignorant to what Linus stands for. People who "get it", appreciate his work knowing how difficult it can be to stay on top of such a long term commitment.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Which wraps right back into that video: lack of psychological/sociological resistance training, especially on campuses.
Normal response: Oh, sorry! I didn't realize I messed up that bad. I'll try to fix it.
SJW response: YOU HATE MY CODE BECAUSE I'M A THEY! (identity-based retaliation because of insecurity)

Kind of defines the type: always quick to throw the minority card especially when it is irrelevant.

Even if people lash out inappropriately, it is appropriate to state that they did and ask why. This is the first step to reaching an understanding.

 

[R-T-B]

What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker; always trust your feelings; and life is a battle between good people and evil people.

My college (Which is widely considered the most liberal in America, Evergreen State) taught the opposite. I'm unsure where you got the idea any properly functioning educattional "SJW" institution believes any of this, and challenge it on it's very foundations.

At most, they taught something along the lines of "opression produces angry people," which is probably true. The other two they made an active point to debunk.

This. Linus doesn't generally open his mouth unless he's got something to say and knows was he's talking about. Bringing glaring problems to light sometimes needs negative response to spotlight the seriousness of the problem.

Like his "Fuck you, NVIDIA!" speech complete with dual middle fingers, over NVIDIA not open sourcing their driver stack?

 

[StrayKAT]

My college (Which is widely considered the most liberal in America, Evergreen State) taught the opposite. I'm unsure where you got the idea any properly functioning educattional "SJW" institution believes any of this, and challenge it on it's very foundations.

At most, they taught something along the lines of "opression produces angry people," which is probably true. The other two they made an active point to debunk.



Like his "Fuck you, NVIDIA!" speech complete with dual middle fingers, over NVIDIA not open sourcing their driver stack?

It's funny... I used to be interested in Jungian archetypes (or the simplified version people know it by... MBTI). I AM a "feeling" type... but always felt a bit guilty relying on it. I made an effort to hone more Left brain/critical thinking. But I did this on my own. You'd think college is the perfect place to do this - but I guess not.

edit: Whoa.. you went to Evergreen.

Seriously.. is this the same college?

 

[R-T-B]

It's funny... I used to be interested in Jungian archetypes (or the simplified version people know it by... MBTI). I AM a "feeling" type... but always felt a bit guilty relying on it. I made an effort to hone more Left brain/critical thinking. But I did this on my own. You'd think college is the perfect place to do this - but I guess not.

edit: Whoa.. you went to Evergreen.

Seriously.. is this the same college?

Yep. Don't confuse the wacky student body with the curriculum though. There is a very vocal communist/anarchist group there that they don't kick out but that does a ton of noise, and has no say so in policy. Some of them aren't even students, ironically. Most of the actual people who make it to graduation laugh at them (Ironically, I did not, but I still laugh).

Likewise, there is a vocal conservative group that likes to show us dead fetuses and tell us we are all going to hell every day on the way into class.

It's an interesting place. Granted I went before the contraversey perpetuated in that video, but same place I imagine.

Go geoducks go...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

TL;DW version (beware of language):

Model school, no doubt, for "Setting Up a Generation for Failure"


Of course the academics are largely divorced from the social environment of the institution. Thing is, and what the book/video stress, is that the divorce needs to end. Kids are coming into these schools wholly unprepared to deal with the real world. Colleges need to step up to counter it. If they don't (which none are right now), their students take these fringe ideas to the workplace and suddenly it becomes the employer's problem. What can the employer reasonably do? Not much because of anti-discrimination law. Employers are forced to bend over backwards for these people. *cough*Linux Foundation*cough*

 

[StrayKAT]

Yep. Don't confuse the wacky student body with the curriculum though. There is a very vocal communist/anarchist group there that they don't kick out but that does a ton of noise, and has no say so in policy. Some of them aren't even students, ironically. Most of the actual people who make it to graduation laugh at them (Ironically, I did not, but I still laugh).

Likewise, there is a vocal conservative group that likes to show us dead fetuses and tell us we are all going to hell every day on the way into class.

It's an interesting place. Granted I went before the contraversey perpetuated in that video, but same place I imagine.

Go geoducks go...

Heh. I had no idea about that mascot. Had to Google it. My dad was from Seattle and I went there a few times.. never even heard of a geoduck.

 

[R-T-B]

Model school, no doubt, for "Setting Up a Generation for Failure"

It actually has pretty damn good performance metrics in terms of graduate success. Don't let that stop you though.

social environment of the institution.

No, they are very aware it's just a vocal few who stand in red square. Evergreen's' Red square is like fight club for political nutjobs. And it's also where next to all these videos are from, Red Square or the buildings around it. Partially because non-students are allowed there, so everyone uses it, including crazy external groups.

As for your video, I refuse to watch anything with Grimace in it. Old rule sorry... but that's possible the most disturbing thing ever to come out of McDonalds.

 

[StrayKAT]

It actually has pretty damn good performance metrics in terms of graduate success. Don't let that stop you though.



No, they are very aware it's just a vocal few who stand in red square. Evergreen's' Red square is like fight club for political nutjobs. And it's also where next to all these videos are from, Red Square or the buildings around it. Partially because non-students are allowed there, so everyone uses it, including crazy external groups.

Whatever their academic record, their attendance has dropped dramatically. Get woke, go broke.

https://www.theolympian.com/opinion/editorials/article212226769.html

 

[FordGT90Concept]

No, they are very aware it's just a vocal few who stand in red square. Evergreen's' Red square is like fight club for political nutjobs. And it's also where next to all these videos are from, Red Square or the buildings around it. Partially because non-students are allowed there, so everyone uses it, including crazy external groups.

I edited.

Yes, it's a minority but that minority is growing every year because of the quality (or lack thereof) of students coming in keeps declining. The iPhone debuted in 2007--11 years ago. The generation that was born with a phone in their hand hasn't reached college age yet. We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg now.

As for your video, I refuse to watch anything with Grimace in it. Old rule sorry... but that's possible the most disturbing thing ever to come out of McDonalds.

It's a joke that only appears once towards the end of it. TL;DW: the school promoted segregation and the events hosted during the segregation were...well...basically the list in the preamble of the new Code of Conduct.

 

[R-T-B]

Whatever their academic record, their attendance has dropped dramatically. Get woke, go broke.

https://www.theolympian.com/opinion/editorials/article212226769.html

My attendance is from 2010-2012ish. Things have gone downhill since then I heard, so you are possibly more on target than I want to admit. Just going on memory. The fact that they do not kick people off campus until they do something violent (even screaming doesn't count) has led to uncomfortable walks to class. Heck, it was uncomfortable when I was there with the freaky anti-abortion "YOU ARE KILLING CHILDREN" types, complete with very graphic posters and a tendency to spit if you looked at them wrong. Unfortunately, it's an example of why extreme freedom of speech can lead to extremely afraid people.

The iPhone debuted in 2007--11 years ago. The generation that grew was born with a phone in their hand hasn't reached college age yet.

I'm unusre how that has anythngto do with what we are arguing, but yeah, overly young access to electronics is probably a bad thing?

It's a joke that only appears once towards the end of it. TL;DW: the school promoted segregation and the events hosted during the segregation were...well...basically the list in the preamble of the new Code of Conduct.

Oh yeah, that professor moron who went on Fox News and basically stirred up a shit storm over the Day of Abscence.

The "Day of Absence" was a longstanding evergreen tradation, a day designed to show what the world would be like without a certain group. Used to just be minorities, one day some clever PR person thought it'd be interesting to invert it and do it for white people. It was designed to highlight how bad the world would be without the missing group. Obviously it backfired completely and frankly, the whole idea was always rather silly. It needed to die long ago in my view but was really a harmless thing blown out of proportion.

It was also optional, and no classwork was to be assigned that day IIRC.

 

[StrayKAT]

My attendance is from 2012ish. Things have gone downhill since then I heard, so you are possibly more on target than I want to admit. Just going on memory. The fact that they do not kick people off campus has led to uncomfortable walks to class. Heck, it was uncomfortable when I was there with the freaky anti-abortion "YOU ARE KILLING CHILDREN" types, complete with very graphic posters and a tendency to spit if you looked at them wrong.

Did you simply go to college late or are you really that young? Just curious.. I'm an old fart, I hate to admit. I never finished college, but technically would have before 2000 if I stayed.

That they made a target out of "Bret Weinstein" is telling (the professor they attacked the most in some vids.. for saying segregation was a bad idea). He's a Leftist himself.. of the hippy variety. Yet it shows how close to the edge they've gone, when a Leftist, Jewish hippy professor is the "oppressive white patriarchy" to these students.

Here he is being interviewed by David Rubin.. another supposed "Nazi" now. Even though he's a gay Jewish guy who used to work at the Young Turks.

 

[R-T-B]

Did you simply go to college late or are you really that young?

I'm 31. I had trouble securing funding for college so it was 2 years at a community college (South Puget Sound Community College) followed by two years at evergreen (which I may SOME DAY finish if the money fairy visists me, but probably not). These years were fairly far apart as I could pay.

I refuse to take out a student loan. Not a type to be indebted to that level.

That they made a target out of "Bret Weinstein" is telling (the professor they attacked the most in some vids.. for saying segregation was a bad idea). He's a Leftist himself.. of the hippy variety. Yet it shows how close to the edge they've gone, when a Leftist, Jewish hippy professor is the "oppressive white patriarchy" to these students.

As much as I hate Bret, because he DID stir up a shitstorm for no good reason and deserved his consqeuences IMO, what they did to smearmonger him was fucking unfair. He's about as much a nazi as I am a hippopotamus.

for saying segregation was a bad idea

It wasn't really segeregation, it was a badly planned purely optional event based in a longstanding college tradition that the media got wind of via Bret and blew up like a hydrogen bomb. It was actually designed to recognize and praise the group being asked to leave.

Ironic to a degree it was never an issue when the various minority groups left campus, which went on for almost a decade (at least?)

PS: My chief reason for not going back is... complicated. The professor I was last studying with and really engaged with, whom I can only remember as "Rob" now (it's been a while) died of brain cancer (second bout with it, no less. Tough dude). He taught a Russia and Eurasia history program. Unfortunately I can't find him now as his last name escapes memory and he is no longer in the staff directory well, being dead.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

My attendance is from 2010-2012ish.

Shows how much worse it has gotten in just 5 years. What's it going to be like in another 5? I perish the thought. It's also not isolated to that campus. It's almost everywhere in the USA.

I'm unusre how that has anythngto do with what we are arguing, but yeah, overly young access to electronics is probably a bad thing?

Fundamentally, yes. Details are in the "The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure" book/video. TL;DW: because they mostly socialize via digital platforms, they don't know how to handle communication in the real world. It's massively contributing to the SJW behavior in high school and college.

 

[StrayKAT]

I'm 31. I had trouble securing funding for college so it was 2 years at a community college (South Puget Sound Community College) followed by two years at evergreen (which I may SOME DAY finish if the money fairy visists me, but probably not). These years were fairly far apart as I could pay.

I refuse to take out a student loan. Not a type to be indebted to that level.



As much as I hate Bret, because he DID stir up a shitstorm for no good reason and deserved his consqeuences IMO, what they did to smearmonger him was fucking unfair. He's about as much a nazi as I am a hippopotamus.



It wasn't really segeregation, it was a badly planned purely optional event based in a longstanding college tradition that the media got wind of via Bret and blew up like a hydrogen bomb. It was actually designed to recognize and praise the group being asked to leave.

Ironic to a degree it was never an issue when the various minority groups left campus, which went on for almost a decade (at least?)

Well, listening to that vid again, indeed, it does sound like it was deliberate, since he's been thinking about these issues well before this happened... and professors like him didn't have a voice with the faculty no longer. So he did the next best thing and got the media involved. I can't blame him for his shrewdness here. He deserved a voice either way. He speaks for many more professors, who often are afraid or get roasted for saying just a little.

 

[R-T-B]

Shows how much worse it has gotten in just 5 years. What's it going to be like in another 5? I perish the thought. It's also not isolated to that campus. It's almost everywhere in the USA.

It speaks to what a climate of anger produces I think, more than anything. This goes for both sides.

It's massively contributing to the SJW behavior in high school and college.

Maybe. Maybe not. You have me.

And I'd still argue a lot of the principles aren't wrong.

Well, listening to that vid again, indeed, it does sound like it was deliberate, since he's been thinking about these issues well before this happened... and professors like him didn't have a voice with the faculty no longer. So he did the next best thing and got the media involved. I can't blame him for his shrewdness here. He deserved a voice either way.

He does. But you have to understand. At evergreen, going to fox news is about the same as going to make a message for ISIS. He was trying to stir up shit just by that alone. There is no way another media outlet wouldn't have taken that story, especially the way he spun it. He went for the most proactive one. This to me, speaks miles to his intentions.

 

[Aquinus]

Like his "Fuck you, NVIDIA!" speech complete with dual middle fingers, over NVIDIA not open sourcing their driver stack?

That was in response to a question from a student regarding Optimus. Linus' response was, "nVidia has been the single most problematic company they've had to deal with," and that they're "the exception, not the rule." It goes a bit further beyond not having open source drivers.

 

[GoldenX]

USA members, you realise the sh*tstorm this is turning to be in your country, right? From outside, it looks so stupid, it's barely believable.
Also, third world country with free health and education, f*ck yeah.

 

[StrayKAT]

USA members, you realise the sh*tstorm this is turning to be in your country, right? From outside, it looks so stupid, it's barely believable.
Also, third world country with free health and education, f*ck yeah.

Oh, I do. Because I love history and try to learn from it. But a lot don't... they love reinventing the wheel instead (and rolling off the cliff).

edit: Free Healthcare is something I'd get behind though if Americans were as healthy as Europeans.

Which isn't happening, of course.

 

[Aquinus]

USA members, you realise the sh*tstorm this is turning to be in your country, right? From outside, it looks so stupid, it's barely believable.
Also, third world country with free health and education, f*ck yeah.

You say that like we're not aware of it.

 

[R-T-B]

That was in response to a question from a student regarding Optimus. Linus' response was, "nVidia has been the single most problematic company they've had to deal with," and that they're "the exception, not the rule." It goes a bit further beyond not having open source drivers.

Ah thanks for the reminder. It's been a while.

USA members, you realise the sh*tstorm this is turning to be in your country, right? From outside, it looks so stupid, it's barely believable.

Having studied Russia and such, I'd argue Russia (or Putin, rather) is very much looking to weaken us through a social campaign designed to divide us along ideological lines. They look at it like "you can only eat a whale one bite at a time." That's why they wanted Trump to win, regardless of "collusion" (let's assume even there was none) he was still the best man to stir the pot. They want us to be "brother against brother" and they'll root for anyone who can stir those party lines. And Trump? Just look at his twitter feed. It's all he does.

But then that'd be political.

You say that like we're not aware of it.

I'm totally aware of it. Sometimes it's pretty big on my worry list, truth be told. But... I hope for things to get better. We can't be this gullible, I hope.