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Editorial Intel Gives its First Comments on Apple's Departure from x86

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Reply: Apple’s Walled Garden

I wonder what you folks think about Apple opening up the SDK, packaging, and signing of system and kernel level extensions (is drivers for you Windows folks)?

This is a strange departure for Apple, where MacOS has always discouraged installing kernel extensions, even though there is a thriving community of “mods,” driver enhancements, and even custom/ported drivers for MacOS. For example, the github for 64-bit LSI RAID drivers has regular commits and new features for over a decade.

Part of me thinks they have to do this to ease the transition, but in the past they’ve only offered the SDK to licensed partners.

I don’t know anything about RISC vs... TRISK or whatever, and what that means for devices like USB storage devices. What does all of this mean?
 
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"We believe Intel-powered PCs—like those based on our forthcoming Tiger Lake mobile platform—provide global customers the best experience in the areas they value most, as well as the most open platform for developers, both today and into the future."

Why is this kind of grandiose, emotional corporate bullsh** so common nowadays? Why can't they just say "we have many other areas to cover besides Apple"? Nobody cares about best experiences and the exciting future and all that cr@p. :kookoo:
 

bug

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Reply: Apple’s Walled Garden

I wonder what you folks think about Apple opening up the SDK, packaging, and signing of system and kernel level extensions (is drivers for you Windows folks)?

This is a strange departure for Apple, where MacOS has always discouraged installing kernel extensions, even though there is a thriving community of “mods,” driver enhancements, and even custom/ported drivers for MacOS. For example, the github for 64-bit LSI RAID drivers has regular commits and new features for over a decade.

Part of me thinks they have to do this to ease the transition, but in the past they’ve only offered the SDK to licensed partners.

I don’t know anything about RISC vs... TRISK or whatever, and what that means for devices like USB storage devices. What does all of this mean?
They're just giving us a longer leash, that's all.
Apple never had a problem opening up bits and pieces (even their OS kernel is open source) as long as you could only use those bits and pieces to bolster their ecosystem. By buying their hardware, paying a developer subscription to deploy your product or straight up selling it through their store.

"We believe Intel-powered PCs—like those based on our forthcoming Tiger Lake mobile platform—provide global customers the best experience in the areas they value most, as well as the most open platform for developers, both today and into the future."

Why is this kind of grandiose, emotional corporate bullsh** so common nowadays? Why can't they just say "we have many other areas to cover besides Apple"? Nobody cares about best experiences and the exciting future and all that cr@p. :kookoo:
I don't think PR guys can speak plain English. It must be in their job description or something.
 
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Tim Cook said it's all about making the best product they can make with this move. So maybe it's time to see what Apple can make on their own and I have a feeling it might just blow everything else out the water in terms of performance. It doesn't just have to be about control like some people seem to think. Apple always wants to be the best and Intel wasn't supplying that for a verly long time.

If the move to ARM wasn't this reachable to apple, they would have long ago made a deal with AMD for Ryzen based Macs. But there might be a potential to do even better with ARM on Mac, who knows? They could more likely scale those iPad chips to a much more powerful form than even AMD could supply.

They could literally flip the whole damn table with this move and nobody will be able to compete. I think a lot of people should be scared like hell right now. Because if Apple can pull this off, all the Apple haters and people who call other people idiots for buying Apple products will be running to Apple for their performance. Nobody cares about the DIY segment outside of this forum, especially not for notebooks which most people already use as their primary device.

Tim Cook could say the Earth was flat and Apple fans would believe him. The claim that Apple makes the best product is laughable at best - just watch some of Louis Rossman's videos on YouTube to see how deviously engineered MacBooks are. They are literally designed in a way that makes minor, common failures brick the entire system... so I guess if "best product" means "best at separating clueless morons from their money", then yeah, Apple's products are right up there.

Not to mention their so-called Genius Bars, where pretty much every fault is beyond the dollar-store jacka**es Apple calls "technicians" to diagnose let alone fix, so almost every "repair" ends up being "replace the entire mainboard". Since everything in a MacBook is soldered to the mainboard - including your data drive - guess what, a mainboard replacement is horribly expensive! Never mind the pollution that Apple isn't creating because it sources components responsibly - it's creating pollution when it unnecessarily has to manufacture ENTIRE SYSTEMS to replace a single mainboard! Not to mention the millions of discarded Apple mainboards that could be made to work again with the replacement of a single component, but have to be discarded instead - which is the very reason why Apple is against right-to-repair legislation, because it means they wouldn't be able to rip off customers and create as much pollution.

Apple is a scam, and people who use its products should be ashamed of themselves.

Reply: Apple’s Walled Garden

I wonder what you folks think about Apple opening up the SDK, packaging, and signing of system and kernel level extensions (is drivers for you Windows folks)?

This is a strange departure for Apple, where MacOS has always discouraged installing kernel extensions, even though there is a thriving community of “mods,” driver enhancements, and even custom/ported drivers for MacOS. For example, the github for 64-bit LSI RAID drivers has regular commits and new features for over a decade.

Part of me thinks they have to do this to ease the transition, but in the past they’ve only offered the SDK to licensed partners.

I don’t know anything about RISC vs... TRISK or whatever, and what that means for devices like USB storage devices. What does all of this mean?

Because Apple has figured out that if you make your system open, someone who needs drivers for it will eventually write those drivers for free. Then Apple can claim their system supports SO MANY DEVICES, except of course that unless you are using official Apple drivers any problems you have are yours, not theirs. In fact, I'm willing to go further and say that if at any point you install a non-official driver on your system, Apple will declare any and all warranties null and void.

It's probably also an attempt to deflect from the numerous looming antitrust investigations around the App Store.
 
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Tim Cook could say the Earth was flat and Apple fans would believe him. The claim that Apple makes the best product is laughable at best - just watch some of Louis Rossman's videos on YouTube to see how deviously engineered MacBooks are. They are literally designed in a way that makes minor, common failures brick the entire system... so I guess if "best product" means "best at separating clueless morons from their money", then yeah, Apple's products are right up there.

Not to mention their so-called Genius Bars, where pretty much every fault is beyond the dollar-store jacka**es Apple calls "technicians" to diagnose let alone fix, so almost every "repair" ends up being "replace the entire mainboard". Since everything in a MacBook is soldered to the mainboard - including your data drive - guess what, a mainboard replacement is horribly expensive! Never mind the pollution that Apple isn't creating because it sources components responsibly - it's creating pollution when it unnecessarily has to manufacture ENTIRE SYSTEMS to replace a single mainboard! Not to mention the millions of discarded Apple mainboards that could be made to work again with the replacement of a single component, but have to be discarded instead - which is the very reason why Apple is against right-to-repair legislation, because it means they wouldn't be able to rip off customers and create as much pollution.

Apple is a scam, and people who use its products should be ashamed of themselves.

lol, Louis Rossman's videos on YouTube make him money as well, so his job is to find flaws in Apple products and all the Apple haters will gladly watch them. I don't see him searching for the same kinds of flaws in 99% of all other notebooks, not to mention phones and tablets in the market. Right to repair is dead, no, it never actually existed. If you want something to look seamless and sleek your goal is not to put a bunch of screws and seams in it so people can open and tinker with it. And people think they need RTR but they don't actually need it. They really need things to look and feel good and seamless and not have rattly parts inside when they carry it around. That's why they buy things that don't have RTR, not because RTR is somehow being suppressed by Apple.

That's why all phones and tablets switched to built-in, non-replaceable batteries and nobody batted an eye. Our phones work just great, maybe exactly because everything is seamless and soldered together and you can't just open it and move s**t around to break it.

Why don't you go cry that your Intel CPU's don't have right to repair, why don't you have the right to repair your own transistors if something happens with them. It's called a black box. Some things can actually be built so well and reliable that you really shouldn't have the need to ever open and tinker with them. Millions of products are like that. Electronics in general aren't that prone to just breaking, if you have a good quality control in their production. Apple also coincidentally has an amazing quality control for all their products and uses highly binned parts.

The only reason electronics really EVER break is from water getting into them (or sometimes a much more serious design flaw). Not from dropping, not from heat or cold, not even from high pressure. Yea, if that's the only reason, maybe you should just try not to spill your drink on to them or throw your Mac into the bathtub, then it should theoretically work for decades. Only thing that should get a replacement every 10 years or so it the battery, and Apple coincidentally has an incredibly cheap battery replacement and recycling program where it costs just 125$ to replace and recycle your old battery outside of any warranty and they send it back to you. That's pretty good if you ask me.

Here's the point: you can cry all you want about right to repair, but people don't actually need it in most cases, unless it's something like a Mac Pro or a powerful desktop machine (which has replaceable parts). You don't need it for a laptop or anything below, those things should just work unless you do something really stupid. If you buy a 3000$ MacBook and spill coffee on it you are the jacka**s, I'm sorry. You should literally be a minimalist hipster at that point who has a completely clear desk with only the MacBook, it's your responsibility if it breaks at that point. Unless it's a faulty unit and fails inside warranty, but outside it's all on you. Something doesn't just become a faulty unit after two years of working perfectly.
 
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DIY segment is severely overrated, it represents a fraction of sales.
This for sure will hurt Intel unless other big customers absorb the now available quantity.
MacOS is a minority in desktop and laptop PC sales.
 

iO

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lol, Louis Rossman's videos on YouTube make him money as well, so his job is to find flaws in Apple products and all the Apple haters will gladly watch them. I don't see him searching for the same kinds of flaws in 99% of all other notebooks, not to mention phones and tablets in the market. Right to repair is dead, no, it never actually existed. If you want something to look seamless and sleek your goal is not to put a bunch of screws and seams in it so people can open and tinker with it. And people think they need RTR but they don't actually need it. They really need things to look and feel good and seamless and not have rattly parts inside when they carry it around. That's why they buy things that don't have RTR, not because RTR is somehow being suppressed by Apple.

That's why all phones and tablets switched to built-in, non-replaceable batteries and nobody batted an eye. Our phones work just great, maybe exactly because everything is seamless and soldered together and you can't just open it and move s**t around to break it.

Why don't you go cry that your Intel CPU's don't have right to repair, why don't you have the right to repair your own transistors if something happens with them. It's called a black box. Some things can actually be built so well and reliable that you really shouldn't have the need to ever open and tinker with them. Millions of products are like that. Electronics in general aren't that prone to just breaking, if you have a good quality control in their production. Apple also coincidentally has an amazing quality control for all their products and uses highly binned parts.

The only reason electronics really EVER break is from water getting into them (or sometimes a much more serious design flaw). Not from dropping, not from heat or cold, not even from high pressure. Yea, if that's the only reason, maybe you should just try not to spill your drink on to them or throw your Mac into the bathtub, then it should theoretically work for decades. Only thing that should get a replacement every 10 years or so it the battery, and Apple coincidentally has an incredibly cheap battery replacement and recycling program where it costs just 125$ to replace and recycle your old battery outside of any warranty and they send it back to you. That's pretty good if you ask me.

Here's the point: you can cry all you want about right to repair, but people don't actually need it in most cases, unless it's something like a Mac Pro or a powerful desktop machine (which has replaceable parts). You don't need it for a laptop or anything below, those things should just work unless you do something really stupid. If you buy a 3000$ MacBook and spill coffee on it you are the jacka**s, I'm sorry. You should literally be a minimalist hipster at that point who has a completely clear desk with only the MacBook, it's your responsibility if it breaks at that point. Unless it's a faulty unit and fails inside warranty, but outside it's all on you. Something doesn't just become a faulty unit after two years of working perfectly.

Oh lord, you're one of those.

Why don't you go cry that your Intel CPU's don't have right to repair, why don't you have the right to repair your own transistors if something happens with them.

Because that argument is stupid.

Apple also coincidentally has an amazing quality control for all their products and uses highly binned parts.

I can post a dozen of Louis's videos that prove otherwise. Here's one where a MacBook mainboard component literally caught fire for no good reason:


The only reason electronics really EVER break is from water getting into them (or sometimes a much more serious design flaw).

Wrong, see previous video. Or this one:


Or this:


If you buy a 3000$ MacBook and spill coffee on it you are the jacka**s, I'm sorry.

So being a jack**s means you don't have the right to repair it yourself; or have someone repair it for you, who won't charge you a ridiculous amount of money?

Got it - it's about control. About removing user choice.
 
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They're just giving us a longer leash, that's all.
Apple never had a problem opening up bits and pieces (even their OS kernel is open source) as long as you could only use those bits and pieces to bolster their ecosystem. By buying their hardware, paying a developer subscription to deploy your product or straight up selling it through their store.
That doesn’t seem to add up... LSI didn’t stop updating drivers for their controllers because of a lack of interest (they are simply a port of their Linux drivers, which still receive updates), but a lack of support. Why did nvidia suddenly drop support for MacOS (hint: it wasn’t because nvidia couldn’t make a driver)? The last Mac Pro couldn’t take add-in cards, the new Mac Pro can.

Because Apple has figured out that if you make your system open, someone who needs drivers for it will eventually write those drivers for free. Then Apple can claim their system supports SO MANY DEVICES, except of course that unless you are using official Apple drivers any problems you have are yours, not theirs. In fact, I'm willing to go further and say that if at any point you install a non-official driver on your system, Apple will declare any and all warranties null and void.

It's probably also an attempt to deflect from the numerous looming antitrust investigations around the App Store.
Ah yes like the astounding driver support Windows is famed for
 
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Right to repair is dead, no, it never actually existed. If you want something to look seamless and sleek your goal is not to put a bunch of screws and seams in it so people can open and tinker with it. And people think they need RTR but they don't actually need it.
Fanboyness is very very strong on you! Such stupid, no-brainer, arrogant and autistic argument - Sound narcissistic. You're not the World!

The only reason electronics really EVER break is from water getting into them (or sometimes a much more serious design flaw). Not from dropping, not from heat or cold, not even from high pressure. Yea, if that's the only reason, maybe you should just try not to spill your drink on to them or throw your Mac into the bathtub, then it should theoretically work for decades. Only thing that should get a replacement every 10 years or so it the battery, and Apple coincidentally has an incredibly cheap battery replacement and recycling program where it costs just 125$ to replace and recycle your old battery outside of any warranty and they send it back to you. That's pretty good if you ask me.
CHEAP? Where? Real world send HELLO iSlave!
Probably, battery cost is around $30-40 for macbook pro 15 and less than $30 for macbook air - based on teardown/production cost websites.

Here's the point: you can cry all you want about right to repair, but people don't actually need it in most cases, unless it's something like a Mac Pro or a powerful desktop machine (which has replaceable parts). You don't need it for a laptop or anything below, those things should just work unless you do something really stupid. If you buy a 3000$ MacBook and spill coffee on it you are the jacka**s, I'm sorry. You should literally be a minimalist hipster at that point who has a completely clear desk with only the MacBook, it's your responsibility if it breaks at that point. Unless it's a faulty unit and fails inside warranty, but outside it's all on you. Something doesn't just become a faulty unit after two years of working perfectly.
Broken wall? buy a new home! Broken car? buy a new one! Broken TV controller? BUY a NEW TV! Nice logic, for real!
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The cry is not free, pay me!
 
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It's cheaper and easier for Apple to go this way. They control the software, why not also the hardware? They have been doing it with iphones for ages. If you control both it's easy to make everything work.
 
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Didn't dell and a couple other server hardware manfacturers bail on xeon and switch to AMD EPYC?? I remember dell said intel couldn't deliver on xeon tdp or 5/7nm or by volume production....
 

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It's cheaper and easier for Apple to go this way. They control the software, why not also the hardware? They have been doing it with iphones for ages. If you control both it's easy to make everything work.
Not to mention having to target (roughly) the same architecture across the board, makes development easier and simplifies tooling.

Oh lord, you're one of those.
My thoughts exactly.
 
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Nothing would stop Apple from selling their CPUs to other players in the mobile/tablet/laptop/server market, which could threaten Intel as a whole
I just don’t see Apple doing this unless it was their product from start to finish. They’ve never showed an interest in a market where it’s not hardware + software.
 
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Fanboyness is very very strong on you! Such stupid, no-brainer, arrogant and autistic argument - Sound narcissistic. You're not the World!
Way to ignore all my arguments and just call me autistic. Real mature.

Because that argument is stupid.
Again, just call something stupid without explaining it. That's really smart.
The reason it's not stupid is that you have a lot or non-reparable things in your household. And some things are just better that way. If you could open everything up and tinker with it, all these modern designs wouldn't exist that you like so much. You have no idea how much tech is stuffed in a modern MacBook Pro in such a small space. If you would just use screws for everything instead of glue and solder, you'd have a much thicker and uglier machine. And for what? There's literally no sense in being paranoid that your phone will go off in flames for no good reason. How many people with modern electronics like phones experience that? You're not actually saving the planet with your paranoia.

I can post a dozen of Louis's videos that prove otherwise. Here's one where a MacBook mainboard component literally caught fire for no good reason
That doesn't prove anything. His videos are clickbait trash for people like you who hate anything with an Apple logo. Every video starts with some edgy joke about how you should never buy Apple although like 99.9% of his viewers probably never even owned an Apple product. Like I said in the argument that just got ignored by most here, electronics don't just break for no reason, they're HIGHLY reliable in the grand scheme of things. You post three broken Mac examples from some guy who repairs them and call this proof against what I say? NASA's Opportunity rover was expected by NASA to last 90 days on Mars but it exceeded that prediction by 16 years, 57 days and was fully functional up until that point, surviving countless sandstorms and radiation. That's the kind of toughness you expect from electronics. It's not a mechanical watch with moving and fragile parts, it's just not even the same species..

And that is exactly my own experience. I never had a phone just die for no reason, I dropped and crashed my phones on the ground. I dropped laptops to the ground and they worked fine. The worst than can happen are scuffs and scratches or a screen replacement. But really, if you're worried about cosmetics, just don't drop it. I used to lose my hats all the time as a kid but then I just learned not to lose them and now I haven't lost one in over 20 years. And you can learn not to drop s**t if you don't want scratches or broken glass, it's that easy.

So being a jack**s means you don't have the right to repair it yourself; or have someone repair it for you, who won't charge you a ridiculous amount of money?

Got it - it's about control. About removing user choice.
Right to repair is the stupidest name for it. Of course you have the right to repair yourself. You bought it! You can go out and become an expert and literally repair everything yourself. Louis can do it, so why can't you? I don't get that whining. You mean you don't get to keep your warranty, if you tinker with it yourself? That's a whole different argument and it's still silly to expect. But they can't literally stop you from repairing anything yourself, so have the right to repair, there you go! I just gave it to you. Maybe ask for something more specific next time or maybe tell Louis Rossmann who seems to be at the forefront of this argument. But then again, how would he make his money?

CHEAP? Where? Real world send HELLO iSlave!
Probably, battery cost is around $30-40 for macbook pro 15 and less than $30 for macbook air - based on teardown/production cost websites.
This is your first post, so I'll give you a pass. Here's the real world: you only need to replace a battery on your laptop maybe once in its lifetime. 100$ where the manufacturer does it for you properly and sends it back and recycles your old battery is chump change compared to the cost of some of those MacBooks. That's really cheap actually and only has to be done once. Yea, real world my ass.

Broken wall? buy a new home! Broken car? buy a new one! Broken TV controller? BUY a NEW TV! Nice logic, for real!
Laptop stand for UPGRADABLE RAM & STORAGE!
The cry is not free, pay me!
I already made the argument for some things like PCs for editing and servers being repairable. Obviously cars too. But once cars become electric I don't see much of a reason. Like I don't see a reason for making it easy to replace the LED light bulbs in my desk lamp that's rated at 20 years lifespan! I know those thing will never go out after 3 months like old incandescent light bulbs, can you just except that at least? Now I can also just enjoy the thin, minimalist design. Because you know what, I know I won't need to replace that light bulb, so I don't care about it being non-replaceable. These light bulbs won't even exist in 20 years... They could make it replaceable and add a different cover and more screws and some more materials to make it safe to stick your hands in there, but that would be just a waste of those materials you're so afraid of wasting. Yea, I don't get how people can be so paranoid about their electronics. Maybe Louis Rossmann has something to say about it.

And the upgradability argument... Upgrade your RAM, updgrade your Storage on a laptop. Sure, OR just buy what you NEED in the first place. It's a laptop! Like if you're buying an i3 then you probably will never need 32GB or 8TB or storage. It's a laptop! Just buy a balanced system in the first place. Simply don't buy a 10-core processor in your laptop and only 8GB of RAM. It's a laptop! If you really need 64GB RAM, you're not the type of user who asks "do I need this upfront"? It's a laptop! Maybe kind of get what I'm saying here? Please, do your research up front before buying a $ 3k+ machine. And keep in mind, it's still just a laptop!
 
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bug

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Way to ignore all my arguments and just call me autistic. Real mature.


Again, just call something stupid without explaining it. That's really smart.
...


That doesn't prove anything. His videos are clickbait trash for people like you who hate anything with an Apple logo.
You sure showed us all :rolleyes:
 
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You sure showed us all :rolleyes:
Because I'm not allowed to defend myself? If you can attack someone, you better be able to take some punches.

Your passive aggressive comments also show me that you're really itching to get in the ring. I'm waiting for your arguments.
 
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Because I'm not allowed to defend myself? If you can attack someone, you better be able to take some punches.
You shouldn't take exception to being called autistic, the majority of people here are on varying levels, even if they aren't aware of it.
It's not like being intelligent is a bad thing. ;)
 
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There is a slow-but-steady transition from x86 to ARM in a number of sectors.

This is no different and certainly not a surprise given how good Apple's in-house SOCs are.
 
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You shouldn't take exception to being called autistic, the majority of people here are on varying levels, even if they aren't aware of it.
It's not like being intelligent is a bad thing. ;)
I guess you're right. :) Autistic isn't an insult. He should have probably left out stupid, no-brainer, and arrogant though.
 
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I guess you're right. :) Autistic isn't an insult. He should have probably left out stupid, no-brainer, and arrogant though.
Dude, we live on a planet with finite resources. If we waste them by creating throwaway products all the damn time it makes us highly inefficient and wasteful and destructive. The less we waste the better. That's the summary for the "right to repair".
 
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DIY segment is severely overrated, it represents a fraction of sales.
This for sure will hurt Intel unless other big customers absorb the now available quantity.

I agree. And it is not just losing Apple, Intel have been progressively losing customers to both ARM and Intel. Amazon was one of the recent customer that they are losing (though not entirely), due to switch to their own in house ARM based processor and also some to AMD.

Nothing would stop Apple from selling their CPUs to other players in the mobile/tablet/laptop/server market, which could threaten Intel as a whole
This is not Apple's style of doing business. Everything they create, they keep it to themselves basically. Considering that their A series SOC have always been the most powerful mobile SOCs consistently, they did not bother to sell it to other phone makers. Likewise, I don't think they will too in this case.

Intel knows that they are being threatened in the CPU space, and thus, you see them starting to acquire other companies to diversify their portfolio. Their main competition from my perspective is actually ARM, and less of AMD for now. Bigger companies like Amazon and Apple, have been building their in house chip based off ARM processors. I am not surprise that Google is doing so as well. And as more starts transitioning to ARM based chips, Intel has got a lot to lose. In fact, I feel Intel's failure to transition to 10nm timely have cost them dearly because this basically acted as a catalyst for more companies to move away from Intel due to high cost, high power consumption (high heat), stagnant performance, over the last few years. To add on to the insult, the number of severe security flaws over the last 2 years is probably the last straw.
 
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95Viper

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If anyone else insults another member... you will be dealt with.
Play nice and be civil.

Have a nice evening and follow the Guidelines.
 
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The increasing use of GPU and other accelerators and decreased the role of the CPU. Increasing the complexity of CPU cores has diminishing returns. Why not halve the complexity but double the number of cores per sq.mm as ARM can do? Once you can reach embarrassingly parallel solutions you don't need high clock speeds, just more cores. Intel once used their FAB advantage to pay for the power, size & latency of the x86 to micro/macro-ops frontend (x86 to RISC). Now ARM are using same or better FAB they meet or exceed x86 in several use cases (but not yet all). It's very hard to keep x86 ahead of the performance per watt curves but they will die trying. Room enough for all at the moment.
 
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I guess you're right. :) Autistic isn't an insult. He should have probably left out stupid, no-brainer, and arrogant though.

It was used as an insult though.
 
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