• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

TSMC Announces the N4X Silicon Fabrication Process

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
46,283 (7.69/day)
Location
Hyderabad, India
System Name RBMK-1000
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5700G
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix B450-E Gaming
Cooling DeepCool Gammax L240 V2
Memory 2x 8GB G.Skill Sniper X
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER GameRock
Storage Western Digital Black NVMe 512GB
Display(s) BenQ 1440p 60 Hz 27-inch
Case Corsair Carbide 100R
Audio Device(s) ASUS SupremeFX S1220A
Power Supply Cooler Master MWE Gold 650W
Mouse ASUS ROG Strix Impact
Keyboard Gamdias Hermes E2
Software Windows 11 Pro
TSMC today introduced its N4X process technology, tailored for the demanding workloads of high performance computing (HPC) products. N4X is the first of TSMC's HPC-focused technology offerings, representing ultimate performance and maximum clock frequencies in the 5-nanometer family. The "X" designation is reserved for TSMC technologies that are developed specifically for HPC products.

"HPC is now TSMC's fastest-growing business segment and we are proud to introduce N4X, the first in the 'X' lineage of our extreme performance semiconductor technologies," said Dr. Kevin Zhang, senior vice president of Business Development at TSMC. "The demands of the HPC segment are unrelenting, and TSMC has not only tailored our 'X' semiconductor technologies to unleash ultimate performance but has also combined it with our 3DFabric advanced packaging technologies to offer the best HPC platform."



Leveraging its experience in 5 nm volume production, TSMC further enhanced its technology with features ideal for high performance computing products to create N4X. These features include:
  • Device design and structures optimized for high drive current and maximum frequency
  • Back-end metal stack optimization for high-performance designs
  • Super high density metal-insulator-metal capacitors for robust power delivery under extreme performance loads
  • These HPC features will enable N4X to offer a performance boost of up to 15% over N5, or up to 4% over the even faster N4P at 1.2 volt. N4X can achieve drive voltages beyond 1.2 volt and deliver additional performance. Customers can also draw on the common design rules of the N5 process to accelerate the development of their N4X products. TSMC expects N4X to enter risk production by the first half of 2023.
TSMC's HPC platform not only offers performance-optimized silicon with N4X technology, but also provides the greatest design flexibility with its comprehensive 3DFabric advanced packaging technologies and a broad design enablement platform with our ecosystem partners through the TSMC Open Innovation Platform.

For more information, visit this page.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
So AMD is using TSMC's 3DFabric for their CPU, and i thought it was AMD's idea.
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
2,648 (0.56/day)
Location
Greece
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 5600@80W
Motherboard MSI B550 Tomahawk
Cooling ZALMAN CNPS9X OPTIMA
Memory 2*8GB PATRIOT PVS416G400C9K@3733MT_C16
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 6750 XT Pulse 12GB
Storage Sandisk SSD 128GB, Kingston A2000 NVMe 1TB, Samsung F1 1TB, WD Black 10TB
Display(s) AOC 27G2U/BK IPS 144Hz
Case SHARKOON M25-W 7.1 BLACK
Audio Device(s) Realtek 7.1 onboard
Power Supply Seasonic Core GC 500W
Mouse Sharkoon SHARK Force Black
Keyboard Trust GXT280
Software Win 7 Ultimate 64bit/Win 10 pro 64bit/Manjaro Linux
So AMD is using TSMC's 3DFabric for their CPU, and i thought it was AMD's idea.
Maybe you have misunderstood something. It is one thing the way of making a thing or the design of it and it is another thing who makes it happen in the end. AMD designed the way the cache connects to the chip below it and TSMC designed the machines to make it happen.
 
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
Maybe you have misunderstood something. It is one thing the way of making a thing or the design of it and it is another thing who makes it happen in the end. AMD designed the way the cache connects to the chip below it and TSMC designed the machines to make it happen.

So who came up with 3Dfabric, TSMC or AMD?
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
2,594 (2.20/day)
Location
Slovenia
Processor i5-6600K
Motherboard Asus Z170A
Cooling some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar
Memory 16GB DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) IGP
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250GB
Display(s) 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200
Case Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh
Audio Device(s) E-mu 1212m PCI
Power Supply Seasonic G-360
Mouse Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse
Keyboard Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994
Software Oldwin
So AMD is using TSMC's 3DFabric for their CPU, and i thought it was AMD's idea.
Analysis at Anandtech shows that AMD took TSMC's technology. AMD seems to have confirmed that.
this is clearly TSMC’s SoIC Chip-on-Wafer in action, albeit with only two layers.
In a call with AMD, we have confirmed the following: ... ... AMD knows that TSMC can do multiple stacked dies, however AMD is only talking about a 1-High stack at this time which it will bring to market.


With that said, these are leading-edge packaging technologies, they've been developed with specific customers in mind and may include know-how from those customers. It's not like AMD's purchase manager called TSMC's sales manager and said, hey, we heard you have that, can we have some of it.
 
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
So if there is any advantage to 3Dfabric for AMD it is thanks to TSMC.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
2,519 (1.76/day)
So if there is any advantage to 3Dfabric for AMD it is thanks to TSMC.

AMD's innovation was moving to chiplets like 5 years ago, in preparation for this tech to be ready. TSMC is the actual manufacturer though. So of course its TSMC's innovation to actually be able to stich chips together like this. AMD + GloFo were working on this though even as early as Zen1.

Other companies are getting on the chiplet train later than AMD. IBM seems to have been ready for it, NVidia has a bit of usage but not as much as I thought they'd have by now. AMD really went all in on chiplet designs: Zen1, Zen2, Zen3, MI200, etc. etc.

AMD didn't make the physical connections. They just rewrote their protocols to use such connections (aka: Infinity Fabric), which is still a major step forward... albeit a temporary one. (Now that chiplets are proven, everyone else is moving into the space, such as Intel)
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
6,728 (1.68/day)
So if there is any advantage to 3Dfabric for AMD it is thanks to TSMC.
Not sure what your point is? You know who's making the physicals chips, the exotic interconnects or the package right?
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,642 (0.49/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
AMD is just using some TSMC packaging technology that allows stacking of chips. It's not an AMD technology.

They are using it to stack some cache. My thought is that this will be expensive, but we'll see.


And this concept isn't new (2010) :

 
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
My point is, the way everyone goes on about this 3D stuff as if AMD came up with it, but they never, it seems it was TSMC. Will they get a TM on the box re 3D stacking or just a fat % off AMD for using it.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,642 (0.49/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
My point is, the way everyone goes on about this 3D stuff as if AMD came up with it, but they never, it seems it was TSMC. Will they get a TM on the box re 3D stacking or just a fat % off AMD for using it.

AMD has a superb marketing department.

It's probably worth mentioning that the first 3D Stack product was 3D HBM on the Fury GPU. That was 6 years ago IIRC.

Also Intel Lakefield was a Foveros 3D chip.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
Suppose in the same vein, Intel never actually came up with Big/Little, just their take on it. Is AMD's 3D stack as designed by TSMC or have AMD tweaked it?
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,642 (0.49/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
Suppose in the same vein, Intel never actually came up with Big/Little, just their take on it. Is AMD's 3D stack as designed by TSMC or have AMD tweaked it?

I would imagine that TSMC gave AMD a tool kit for their process node and packaging tech, and AMD used that. I seriously doubt AMD has anything to do with packaging, at least to any large degree - that's the foundry's job. There's an article on AT somewhere that talks about this, but TSMC would literally give like a portfolio or tool kit and from that companies like AMD design their chips. The 'electronics design' of this is ofc on AMD using those tools, but the physics of making the package and the chip is on TSMC. Even the technology that enables 'chiplets' is not AMDs.

So as far as 3D stacking, that's not new. Heat is the main problem, which is why you only see it on something like Lakefield or memory modules so far. Will be interesting to see if / how they solved that.
 
D

Deleted member 24505

Guest
I would imagine that TSMC gave AMD a tool kit for their process node and packaging tech, and AMD used that. I seriously doubt AMD has anything to do with packaging, at least to any large degree - that's the foundry's job. There's an article on AT somewhere that talks about this, but TSMC would literally give like a portfolio or tool kit and from that companies like AMD design their chips. The 'electronics design' of this is ofc on AMD using those tools, but the physics of making the package and the chip is on TSMC. Even the technology that enables 'chiplets' is not AMDs.

So as far as 3D stacking, that's not new. Heat is the main problem, which is why you only see it on something like Lakefield or memory modules so far. Will be interesting to see if / how they solved that.

Heat is the main problem indeed, as the heat from the bottom die has only 1 place to go and that is through the one on top.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
6,457 (1.41/day)
Processor Intel® Core™ i7-13700K
Motherboard Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15
Memory 32GB(2x16) DDR5@6600MHz G-Skill Trident Z5
Video Card(s) ZOTAC GAMING GeForce RTX 3080 AMP Holo
Storage 2TB SK Platinum P41 SSD + 4TB SanDisk Ultra SSD + 500GB Samsung 840 EVO SSD
Display(s) Acer Predator X34 3440x1440@100Hz G-Sync
Case NZXT PHANTOM410-BK
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe
Power Supply Corsair 850W
Mouse Logitech Hero G502 SE
Software Windows 11 Pro - 64bit
Benchmark Scores 30FPS in NFS:Rivals
Anyone knows, what is the EXACT ACTUAL dimension of the transistors and transistor gates? For Intel, TSMC and Samsung's?
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
2,594 (2.20/day)
Location
Slovenia
Processor i5-6600K
Motherboard Asus Z170A
Cooling some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar
Memory 16GB DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) IGP
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250GB
Display(s) 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200
Case Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh
Audio Device(s) E-mu 1212m PCI
Power Supply Seasonic G-360
Mouse Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse
Keyboard Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994
Software Oldwin
Anyone knows, what is the EXACT ACTUAL dimension of the transistors and transistor gates? For Intel, TSMC and Samsung's?
You'll get at least a part of the answer here
 
Top