Intel and TSMC Strike 3nm Deal, New Hsinchu Fab to Cater to Intel

[AlwaysHope]

A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?

That was exactly my thoughts when reading this news today....

 

[deadgigabyteboard]

TSMC makes revenue almost at the level of Intel. Intel should have become fab only and sold all its chip IP to pay for new fabs with better capabilities. With no products of their own, fabless companies would have no problem going to them for production.

Instead, they gave too much money to shareholders and lowered R&D budgets. Their fabs sit idle with only a few barely producing enough 10 nm and below chips with horrible yields. They beg for government subsidies to build new crappy fabs. Because of this, they are taking away fab capacity from the competition while sabotaging the region by talking about instabilities between Taiwan and China.

I really really don’t like Intel.

wow what an awful take. Intel has only been printing money with 14nm these past couple of years with their development and fabrication process. For every product line they release, they probably had 8 different similar projects going on at the same time. Which company doesn't accept subsidies when offered to them?

A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?

They probably did and would love to have China as a customer lmao

 

[Aquinus]

So why exactly is my tax payer money going to help Intel build new factories again in the USA if they are just going to outsource the latest and greatest anyway? So much for America being the latest and greatest lol

Because not every IC needs to be on the latest and greatest process. Intel has plenty of fabs that do things on bigger processes that work just fine for their use case.

 

[Daven]

I don't think that going 100% fabless is a good idea for Intel. They have a far more diverse portfolio than AMD and a lot of the tech that Intel produces isn't on bleeding edge nodes. This makes sense for their CPU and GPU development. Probably not for the rest of the portfolio though. Since they have the fabs, it's worth keeping control over that. There is a level of risk going 100% fabless. Diversity is important, but not if it's going to hamstring you.

Again I’m arguing that Intel goes CHIPLESS not fabless. Wow the idea is so far out of the box eh?

Intel should become a company like TSMC is what I’m saying. Make ALL their money fabbing other people’s chips.

 

[WhoDecidedThat]

Intel should become a company like TSMC is what I’m saying. Make ALL their money fabbing other people’s chips.

Why? What would be the benefit?

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Why? What would be the benefit?

Tons of moolah and friends like TSMC I guess

 

[Fluffmeister]

A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?

Technically that would throw a spanner in the works for all their rivals too, and Intel are real men that have fabs they can fall back on.

 

[watzupken]

I for one welcome this. With both AMD and Intel chips being manufactured on the same node by TSMC (albeit different factories) it is truly the case of "let the best architecture win".

Hopefully this finally shuts up those who say that AMD only beat intel because they used TSMC's node that was better. Sure it was and arguably is but AMD themselves needed to come up with a competitive architecture too. And Zen is no slouch being designed by Jim Keller originally and now iterated beyond that.

The only thing AMD really cant compete in is volume. Intel still ships much bigger volume of chips. Tho with using TSMC's node it does equalize things a bit between the two. Mainly because i doubt this one 3nm fab has the volume of all other Intel fabs combined.

AMD's biggest misstep was introducing a radically different architecture in the form of Bulldozer, which see them falling behind Intel significantly. To add on to the insult, I believe all Bulldozer based chips was built on GF's 28nm, while Intel have transitioned to 14nm, where the latter is vastly superior. Fast forward to the release of Zen 2, the move to TSMC's 7nm and Intel getting stuck on 14nm, the reverse happened. The latter run too hot as Intel keeps pushing clock speed increases, and loses quite significantly on multicore performance because of the number of cores disparity.
I agree that AMD can't beat Intel when it comes to volume, but I appreciate that there is a company always hot on the heels of Intel so as to keep both companies on their toes. Intel have slacked too much for a decade or more before AMD hit them hard on the face with the introduction of Ryzen. Also, Intel's main competitor is no longer AMD, but ARM. ARM is the likely the one that is terrorising Intel in the data center sales, and may also hit them in the retail/consumer sales as we see more companies releasing ARM based Windows machine. Apple's success already somewhat pointed to the potential of ARM chips powering a desktop/laptop.

AMD is one of TSMC's top customers. I highly doubt that this will end even if Samsung is cheaper. Sure AMD may move some things to Samsung like APU's and console SoC's but im pretty sure they'll stick with TSMC regardless. Intel may have deep pockets but not enough to outbid everyone else. Apple will stay as TSMC's #1 customer and they have the deepest pockets.

Unfortunately, it is all about the money. If Intel is contributing materially to TSMC's revenue and profit, they will also be counted as their top customer. And since Intel is willing to throw money at TSMC with the intention to depriving competition to the fab, TSMC likely know it but is unlikely to be bothered as soon as the money keeps coming in. They will only play favouritism when fab businesses are not doing well.

 

[Space Lynx]

A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?

if this happens, the world will have much more to worry about than chips, I expect it will cause world war 3 in all honesty... and probably mass famine/death as a result of that.

 

[TechLurker]

I see this more like a calculated gamble for Intel and to some extent TSMC. TSMC is willing to build the new fab for Intel, but Intel likely had to pay out the nose for it. The new fab is likely to be split between supporting Intel's GPUs and their CPUs, and is as much of a high risk for Intel in that this also puts them further behind on their own stateside Fab R&D (which it seems like they're giving up on if they're choosing to head to a competitor for both CPU and GPU). TSMC is also probably avoiding sharing too many node secrets (or so specula went, where supposedly TSMC won't share the full capabilities of their bleeding edge nodes), given that Intel is still a rival foundry, so the Intel-oriented foundry is likely to be heavily subsidized by Intel, for Intel-only products, using a 3nm branch that may or may not be as leading edge as whatever Apple is paying for and what other competitors may use (Nvidia and AMD).

That said, given that it's a leading edge node regardless, I expect that Intel's E-Cores and GPUs will be made there, while they manufacture their P-cores on an Intel fab. That way, their E-cores would be even more energy efficient while they further ramp up power to the P-cores for chasing synthetic top scores.

 

[ratirt]

ERR-There is not enough capacity to buy--->The world-leading Taiwanese fab is setting up a new facility exclusively to cater to Intel

Yes and that is expansion but not getting current capacity. TSMC is smart and is investing more to cater all customers cause they know, all they have will be bought no problem.
It is not to specifically cater to Intel because they are so nice. It's just good business. They have already allocated the capacity for new Fabs to a customer. You plan ahead, expand and what you have build already has a job to do in form of a customer that will be using it. Congratulations should go to TSMC for flawless business approach and marketing.

 

[JAB Creations]

The whole point is to drive up prices for AMD who, while having increased revenue, it's sitting on mountains of fiat currency. No one needs a 3nm Celeron and Intel is no less anti-capitalist now then when it was giving billions a quarter to Dell alone to not use AMD processors.

Intel needs to keep their foundries up to date as only having TSMC provide competitive facilities in the shadow of marxist occupied China with it's eyes on consuming anything not yielding to their fascist criminal organization only creates further pointless instability in the markets. An 8GB AMD video card says someone will get upset about me pointing out the truth.

 

[stimpy88]

Not good for anyone.

Is Intel gonna get out of the leading edge fab business soon?

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Not good for anyone.

Is Intel gonna get out of the leading edge fab business soon?

They already did 5 years ago, that's their problem, they need to get back into it.

 

[stimpy88]

They already did 5 years ago, that's their problem, they need to get back into it.

Not all the time TSMC are building fabs for them they wont. Meantime they are going to start shutting out other companies from the fabs. Old Intel seems to be back.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Not all the time TSMC are building fabs for them they wont. Meantime they are going to start shutting out other companies from the fabs. Old Intel seems to be back.

I would argue old Intel died over 10 years ago, innovation got trampled competition got trampled then the money men got hold of it and eventually we got to here, where deals are what floats Intel's boat, deals at least half about f#@#£g over fair competition and now they think plan A + a little innovation can drag plan A back on track.

 

[ratirt]

Not all the time TSMC are building fabs for them they wont. Meantime they are going to start shutting out other companies from the fabs. Old Intel seems to be back.

You simply think that is an Intel's achievement to have a TSMC build a Fab to supply Intel with nodes? You dont see a bigger picture here. The achievement is on the TSMC's side. They got it right with investment and Intel has to pay upfront for that Investment. Sure they will secure the supply for Intel but we dont know what the supply is and if you think that will be exclusive fab for Intel, then you are mistaken. I would not be surprised if TSMC still produced other chips there ramping up production. Kudos to TSMC with a great business plan securing the expansions, getting paid for the Fab upfront and increasing revenue and profit. Especially in an age of tremendous chip demand. There is no risk and if there is a slight one. They already have customer for the future chips that will be produced when the Fab is up and running.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

You simply think that is an Intel's achievement to have a TSMC build a Fab to supply Intel with nodes? You dont see a bigger picture here. The achievement is on the TSMC's side. They got it right with investment and Intel has to pay upfront for that Investment. Sure they will secure the supply for Intel but we dont know what the supply is and if you think that will be exclusive fab for Intel, then you are mistaken. I would not be surprised if TSMC still produced other chips there ramping up production. Kudos to TSMC with a great business plan securing the expansions, getting paid for the Fab upfront and increasing revenue and profit. Especially in an age of tremendous chip demand. There is no risk and if there is a slight one. They already have customer for the future chips that will be produced when the Fab is up and running.

Well it does say The world-leading Taiwanese fab is setting up a new facility exclusively to cater to Intel. I am pretty sure exclusively means only for. Maybe they have paid a lot for it.

A report from DigiTimes reveals the true nature of Intel and TSMC’s relationship. Although the latter demanded an advance payment to secure the latter’s 3nm wafer supply, it has invested a great deal to increase production capacity and ensure sufficient supply for the former’s leading chip families. In fact, TSMC has converted two factories (P8/P9) at Baoshan to fulfill Intel’s 3nm wafer needs. Each of these factories will produce 20K wafers per month in the first run of production with 40K slated for the second. These fabs will reportedly manufacture an important CPU family on TSMC’s 3nm node for Intel.

As reported earlier, Intel is likely to partner with TSMC to leverage its 2nm GAA process node as well. This technology will be used to manufacture its GPUs as well as certain CPUs in 2025. The 3nm Intel CPUs and GPUs are expected to hit retail towards the end of 2023, with 2nm coming sometime in 2025.

Intel coming in and suddenly splitting the most advanced wafers with Apple sounds rather far-fetched. But, this wouldn’t be the first time a major chipmaker got priority access to advanced technology using financial means. Gaining process leadership over AMD and NVIDIA may seem like a big win for Intel, but it’s worth noting that this will ensure sufficient supply for both without straining supply lines. AMD has been using TSMC’s 7nm node since 2020, and yet despite sticking to the same process technology has managed to bring significant improvements to IPC and boost clocks.

I think Intel are paying someone else to do it till they have updated their own fabs to be able to do it themselves. And why not if you have the cash and want to make sure you don't let the competitor get ahead again.

 

[r9]

TSMC makes revenue almost at the level of Intel. Intel should have become fab only and sold all its chip IP to pay for new fabs with better capabilities. With no products of their own, fabless companies would have no problem going to them for production.

Instead, they gave too much money to shareholders and lowered R&D budgets. Their fabs sit idle with only a few barely producing enough 10 nm and below chips with horrible yields. They beg for government subsidies to build new crappy fabs. Because of this, they are taking away fab capacity from the competition while sabotaging the region by talking about instabilities between Taiwan and China.

I really really don’t like Intel.

You proved me wrong ... one can talk from their butt after all.

 

[Turmania]

What is this with Intel hate? They are customers just like Apple and AMD. Get over it. really disturbing to see, unrational minds speak.

The whole point is to drive up prices for AMD who, while having increased revenue, it's sitting on mountains of fiat currency. No one needs a 3nm Celeron and Intel is no less anti-capitalist now then when it was giving billions a quarter to Dell alone to not use AMD processors.

Intel needs to keep their foundries up to date as only having TSMC provide competitive facilities in the shadow of marxist occupied China with it's eyes on consuming anything not yielding to their fascist criminal organization only creates further pointless instability in the markets. An 8GB AMD video card says someone will get upset about me pointing out the truth.

Do not worry about competitors raising prices, when AMD have done exactly just that and showed the middle finger to the base that made them stay a float. There is a reason why they opted not to sell ryzen3 cpu from start and anything belowe 300 USD from start. But as always with AMD they get away with everything just like Steve from GN said.

 

[Easo]

A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?

If (when) that happens you will have far bigger problems than Intel loosing something. Market for basically all electronic devices will explode, and everything connected to it will slow down to a crawl. Current shortages will seem like a paradise.

 

[Caring1]

If (when) that happens you will have far bigger problems than Intel loosing something. Market for basically all electronic devices will explode, and everything connected to it will slow down to a crawl. Current shortages will seem like a paradise.

Start hoarding now, prices will skyrocket.

 

[ratirt]

Well it does say The world-leading Taiwanese fab is setting up a new facility exclusively to cater to Intel. I am pretty sure exclusively means only for. Maybe they have paid a lot for it.

A report from DigiTimes reveals the true nature of Intel and TSMC’s relationship. Although the latter demanded an advance payment to secure the latter’s 3nm wafer supply, it has invested a great deal to increase production capacity and ensure sufficient supply for the former’s leading chip families. In fact, TSMC has converted two factories (P8/P9) at Baoshan to fulfill Intel’s 3nm wafer needs. Each of these factories will produce 20K wafers per month in the first run of production with 40K slated for the second. These fabs will reportedly manufacture an important CPU family on TSMC’s 3nm node for Intel.

As reported earlier, Intel is likely to partner with TSMC to leverage its 2nm GAA process node as well. This technology will be used to manufacture its GPUs as well as certain CPUs in 2025. The 3nm Intel CPUs and GPUs are expected to hit retail towards the end of 2023, with 2nm coming sometime in 2025.

Intel coming in and suddenly splitting the most advanced wafers with Apple sounds rather far-fetched. But, this wouldn’t be the first time a major chipmaker got priority access to advanced technology using financial means. Gaining process leadership over AMD and NVIDIA may seem like a big win for Intel, but it’s worth noting that this will ensure sufficient supply for both without straining supply lines. AMD has been using TSMC’s 7nm node since 2020, and yet despite sticking to the same process technology has managed to bring significant improvements to IPC and boost clocks.

I think Intel are paying someone else to do it till they have updated their own fabs to be able to do it themselves. And why not if you have the cash and want to make sure you don't let the competitor get ahead again.

I really doubt it is exclusive per se and as you have mentioned at the bottom, Intel is doing this only to update their own Fabs. Not sure if that statement is your conclusion or an actual fact.
I'm not saying it is a bad idea for the TSMC to make wafers for Intel. To know exactly how many wafers are going to be Intel's secured wafers is hard to say because we dont know the contract deals here. If Intel is doing this just to get their Fabs upgraded and running, they would have not invest in TSMC's production line literally, sponsoring their technology. Intel still can use their Fabs for producing other nodes for older CPUs. When TSMC is going to ramp up the production not all of them will go to Intel. It is still TSMC's Fab and they need to make sure whatever is in the agreement is being delivered. Just because media make it sound like that may be far fetched. It is still TSMC's Fab. I think, TSMC would have not built a Fab for Intel just to find out they would leave in a few years time to make their own chips. How I see it, TSMC is building a Fab and Intel is securing some of the wafers for future and has to pay upfront for it. Like I said before. Flawless move from TSMC's side.
About NV and AMD. We don't know what these will plan in a near future. Maybe Intel want's to compete better in the GPU market and as we know they still have some catching up to do.

Do not worry about competitors raising prices, when AMD have done exactly just that and showed the middle finger to the base that made them stay a float. There is a reason why they opted not to sell ryzen3 cpu from start and anything belowe 300 USD from start. But as always with AMD they get away with everything just like Steve from GN said.

the market nowadays is a bit different with all the chip shortages. You should take this into account as well. The pandemic has made a huge impact in economy everywhere.
even though the Fabs were working at 100%, TSMC still managed to ramp up the production by 25% and it was not enough anyway. Chip shortages are still present and the prices are extremely high in general.

 

[Pilgrim]

- Outside some small and quite separate things foundry business is a new thing for Intel that has not really started yet, you make it seem like they have done that for long time.

What are you smoking? Intel has been leading the semiconductor fabrication industry for decades before their current debacle with the 10nm node.

 

[londiste]

What are you smoking? Intel has been leading the semiconductor fabrication industry for decades before their current debacle with the 10nm node.

Foundry business = manufacturing chips for clients/customers.
Intel has been building stuff for themselves in their fabs, with a few minor exceptions.