• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Framework Laptop 16 Liquid Metal Cooling Solution Explored

T0@st

News Editor
Staff member
Joined
Mar 7, 2023
Messages
2,077 (4.79/day)
Location
South East, UK
The Ryzen 7040 Series processor in Framework Laptop 16 is capable of running at a sustained 45 W TDP (Thermal Design Power) and we put together an excellent thermal solution to ensure it can do that while keeping CPU temperature, touch temperatures, and fan noise to a minimum. That 45 watts of CPU power needs to be efficiently conducted into the vapor chamber, heatpipes, and fins to be carried away through airflow from the fans.

Since neither the CPU die nor the vapor chamber surface are perfectly flat, a thermal interface material is needed to fill in gaps to avoid comparatively insulative air taking up that space. Traditionally, most computers use a thermal grease that has thermally conductive particles suspended in silicone. This works reasonably well, but the silicone itself isn't especially thermally conductive, and the paste can pump out or dry out over time, making it less effective.




Instead, on Framework Laptop 16, we used a liquid metal thermal interface on the CPU. Liquid metal is exactly what it sounds like: a 100% metal sheet made up of indium, tin, and bismuth that turns from solid into liquid at around 58 °C as the CPU heats up, filling any air gaps completely. Being metal, it is extremely thermally conductive, rated at 72 W/mK, substantially better than the 5-10 W/mK that is typical for traditional paste. It also doesn't dry out or pump out over time. We're using Coollaboratory's Liquid MetalPad through their Taiwan-based partner CCHUAN.



You might be thinking, is it safe to have highly electrically conductive liquid inside of a portable device? The answer in this case is yes, as we've designed the thermal system to contain it at multiple levels. First, because AMD's processors have small capacitors directly next to the CPU dies, we dispense an insulative glue layer using a robotic fixture during Mainboard assembly to cover them. Next, an etched pattern in the surface of the vapor chamber holds the liquid metal through tension. Finally, a dual foam barrier around the CPU is squeezed between the processor package and the vapor chamber copper plate, preventing any liquid metal from escaping. All of this results in a very cool thermal solution and great CPU performance.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site | Source
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Messages
20 (0.05/day)
Processor 5700X
Motherboard B550 Tomahawk
Memory 16GB Teamgroup
Video Card(s) 6800XT
Storage WD Blue 1TB
Display(s) Iiyama
Case Define S
Yeah, first?
Jokes aside, nice concept with this laptop but it is expensive when you start adding modules to the base configuration.
I wonder how many people are actually going to upgrade anything else aside from usb ports, keyboard etc.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
4,487 (3.90/day)
Location
Colorado, U.S.A.
System Name HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT
Processor Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Motherboard Hewlett-Packard 3647h
Memory 16GB DDR3
Video Card(s) Asus NVIDIA GeForce GT 1030 2GB GDDR5 (fan-less)
Storage 2TB Micron SATA SSD; 2TB Seagate Firecuda 3.5" HDD
Display(s) Dell P2416D (2560 x 1440)
Power Supply 12V HP proprietary
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
No gallium, so is it aluminum safe?
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
6,455 (1.44/day)
Location
Florida
System Name natr0n-PC
Processor Ryzen 5950x/5600x
Motherboard B450 AORUS M
Cooling EK AIO 360 - 6 fan action
Memory Patriot - Viper Steel DDR4 (B-Die)(4x8GB)
Video Card(s) EVGA 3070ti FTW
Storage Various
Display(s) PIXIO IPS 240Hz 1080P
Case Thermaltake Level 20 VT
Audio Device(s) LOXJIE D10 + Kinter Amp + 6 Bookshelf Speakers Sony+JVC+Sony
Power Supply Super Flower Leadex III ARGB 80+ Gold 650W
Software XP/7/8.1/10
Benchmark Scores http://valid.x86.fr/79kuh6
Bismuth is what is used in pepto bismol fyi.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
5,538 (1.43/day)
Location
Everywhere all the time all at once
System Name The Little One
Processor i5-11320H @4.4GHZ
Motherboard AZW SEI
Cooling Fan w/heat pipes + side & rear vents
Memory 64GB Crucial DDR4-3200 (2x 32GB)
Video Card(s) Iris XE
Storage WD Black SN850X 4TB m.2, Seagate 2TB SSD + SN850 4TB x2 in an external enclosure
Display(s) 2x Samsung 43" & 2x 32"
Case Practically identical to a mac mini, just purrtier in slate blue, & with 3x usb ports on the front !
Audio Device(s) Yamaha ATS-1060 Bluetooth Soundbar & Subwoofer
Power Supply 65w brick
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2
Keyboard Logitech G613 mechanical wireless
Software Windows 10 pro 64 bit, with all the unnecessary background shitzu turned OFF !
Benchmark Scores PDQ
Yeah, first?
Jokes aside, nice concept with this laptop but it is expensive when you start adding modules to the base configuration.
I wonder how many people are actually going to upgrade anything else aside from usb ports, keyboard etc.
Of course it's expensive... the modular design virtually ensures that from the start.... so the old saying "if ya wanna play, ya gotzta pay" applies here: :D
Bismuth is what is used in pepto bismol fyi.
Tru dat, but this just means that your lapper won't barf when the temps start go up, hehehe :) j/k
 
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
1,084 (0.20/day)
Location
SCOTLAND!
System Name Machine XV
Processor Dual Xeon E5 2670 V3 Turbo unlocked
Motherboard Kllisre X99 Dual
Cooling 120mm heatsink
Memory 64gb DDR4 ECC
Video Card(s) RX 480 4Gb
Storage 1Tb NVME SSD
Display(s) 19" + 23" + 17"
Case ATX
Audio Device(s) XFi xtreme USB
Power Supply 800W
Software Windows 10
Yeah, first?
Jokes aside, nice concept with this laptop but it is expensive when you start adding modules to the base configuration.
I wonder how many people are actually going to upgrade anything else aside from usb ports, keyboard etc.
that's always the price early adopters pay.

can other companies produce modules or is it only framework?
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2021
Messages
395 (0.34/day)
Processor AMD 7600x
Motherboard Asrock x670e Steel Legend
Cooling Silver Arrow Extreme IBe Rev B with 2x 120 Gentle Typhoons
Memory 4x16Gb Patriot Viper Non RGB @ 6000 30-36-36-36-40
Video Card(s) XFX 6950XT MERC 319
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 1Tb NVME
Display(s) 3x Dell Ultrasharp U2414h
Case Coolermaster Stacker 832
Power Supply Thermaltake Toughpower PF3 850 watt
Mouse Logitech G502 (OG)
Keyboard Logitech G512

loki_toki

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2023
Messages
4 (0.01/day)
Cool idea but.. no choice on ram speed, display, GPU,battery size. And the price is already higher than all the competitors..
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2021
Messages
395 (0.34/day)
Processor AMD 7600x
Motherboard Asrock x670e Steel Legend
Cooling Silver Arrow Extreme IBe Rev B with 2x 120 Gentle Typhoons
Memory 4x16Gb Patriot Viper Non RGB @ 6000 30-36-36-36-40
Video Card(s) XFX 6950XT MERC 319
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 1Tb NVME
Display(s) 3x Dell Ultrasharp U2414h
Case Coolermaster Stacker 832
Power Supply Thermaltake Toughpower PF3 850 watt
Mouse Logitech G502 (OG)
Keyboard Logitech G512
Cool idea but.. no choice on ram speed, display, GPU,battery size. And the price is already higher than all the competitors..
Agree on the price, but this isnt a laptop mainly aimed at general consumers. Its designed for peope who want to tinker/want to have the ability to easily repair/upgrade in the future.
 

Some French Guy

New Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Messages
2 (0.01/day)
Cool idea but.. no choice on ram speed, display, GPU,battery size. And the price is already higher than all the competitors..
  • You can choose your RAM speed, especially if you choose the DIY version where you bring your own RAM, storage, and OS. It supports up to 5600MT/s SODIMMs, which is the fastest you can get for replacable RAM. Faster speeds are only supported on soldered LPDDR5(X) RAM.
  • I get you can't choose different display specs, but barely any other company out there offers an identical laptop with different display options. And usually those that do, one display is a straight upgrade from the other, which is usually <100% sRGB trash. Framework have gone on record to say that since it's not economically possible to offer multiple display options, they decided to choose a model that should fit as many uses as possible: it is 16:10 1600p, 165Hz, has 100% DCI-P3 coverage, and was testing for minimal input lag and ghosting. It's therefore good for productivity, gaming, and colour work, all at the same time. They have confirmed they have designed the motherboard for touchscreen compatibility down the line. The things I can blame it for, is not being OLED (which some don't like for battery life and burn in) and supporting HDR, and being only matte (which some also don't like). You can't complain about not having display options, which almost no manufacturer does, and then complain about the price being high.
  • Nvidia is notoriously a bitch to work with, and since they had to custom design GPU interfaces with the hot-swap connector, AMD was the only company willing to get on board with the project. In the meantime you get to choose between the best integrated GPU out there (780M), or a decent dGPU that fits the screen its paired with and the thermal and electrical constraints of the expansion slot system.
  • No Intel option yet because 1. Intel's current offering is not competitive for mobile (Meteor Lake just launched this week), especially in battery life and 2. AMD offered to help. Framework 13 started with Intel, and AMD came later. Intel will most likely come down the line too, and Nvidia might too if Framework continues to grow.
  • The 85Wh battery is a limitation of the repairability of the laptop. There just isn't enough space for more, at a fair price for Framework's order sizes, right now. Framework have upgraded the battery on the Framework 13 when higher density cells became available.
  • Of course the price is higher than its competitors, since Framework is still operating at a tiny scale compared to them, and it offers features that no other computer on the market does. If you don't care about upgradeability (which Framework has delivered on from 3 CPU generations for the Framework 13 now, 4 including AMD), buy a different laptop that fits your needs better.

TL;DR: Is the Framework 16 the perfect laptop? No. Does it have severe compromises? Yes. Should it be criticised for its real issues (like the battery life and speaker issues the 13 has)? Yes. Is it also being unfairly bashed online? Also yes. Like, holy shit guys: Framework is a TINY COMPANY revolutionising (and DELIVERING on) the laptop market in a way that's benefitting the environment and consumers, and people are criticising their newest offering for not being as broad as what megacorporations with decades of market presence can offer. Again, holy shit guys, ever heard of economies of scale? I get it, not everyone can afford to vote with their wallet and support new projects, but at least criticise stuff that's relevant/realistic, or at the very least factual (like the RAM, when 60s of Google-Fu shows you can actually slap whatever DDR5 SODIMM you want in there)...
 
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
5,739 (1.12/day)
System Name RemixedBeast-NX
Processor Intel Xeon E5-2690 @ 2.9Ghz (8C/16T)
Motherboard Dell Inc. 08HPGT (CPU 1)
Cooling Dell Standard
Memory 24GB ECC
Video Card(s) Gigabyte Nvidia RTX2060 6GB
Storage 2TB Samsung 860 EVO SSD//2TB WD Black HDD
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster P2350 23in @ 1920x1080 + Dell E2013H 20 in @1600x900
Case Dell Precision T3600 Chassis
Audio Device(s) Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 // Fiio E7 Amp/DAC
Power Supply 630w Dell T3600 PSU
Mouse Logitech G700s/G502
Keyboard Logitech K740
Software Linux Mint 20
Benchmark Scores Network: APs: Cisco Meraki MR32, Ubiquiti Unifi AP-AC-LR and Lite Router/Sw:Meraki MX64 MS220-8P
Yeah, first?
Jokes aside, nice concept with this laptop but it is expensive when you start adding modules to the base configuration.
I wonder how many people are actually going to upgrade anything else aside from usb ports, keyboard etc.
it was 1800USD to match the specs of my current laptop :(

Sorta want a FW as my next laptop but it would take me a year or more to save up enough for even a base model :(

The most I'm willing to ever pay for a laptop is 800 tops... I would get too much anxiety w something more pricey....
 

isocuda

New Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2023
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
Yeah, first?
Jokes aside, nice concept with this laptop but it is expensive when you start adding modules to the base configuration.
I wonder how many people are actually going to upgrade anything else aside from usb ports, keyboard etc.
Let me explain this from a Fleet Asset Management perspective:

A Framework 13 (7840u) is a bit more expensive than a Lenovo T14s Gen 4 (7840u).

Yes the T14s has the faster ram that's also low power spec, is slightly lighter/thinner, and has significantly longer battery life if you get the low power 16:10 FHD screen.

BUT, Thinkpad has been downhill since the selloff, the ram is soldered, the WiFi card on the Gen 4 has a terrible reputation, the screen is glued in place, and getting technical information or even looking up parts for stuff is cumbersome at best with Lenovo.

(Plus how many people have a 2.Xk screen in 3:2? Hell, I'm glad LG made the DualUp in a sea of 21:9)

What are the odds that in general the 2027 T14s is better than the 2024 model? Well you gotta buy that.

Well whatever improvements Framework develop in that time, in addition to new Intel/AMD chips/chipsets, etc in 2027 can effectively drop into my current chassis. It's more akin to a desktop, but way more straight forward andhas factory supported documentation for that. Plus there is the public repo with all the 3d printer designs, library files, and documentation for all sorts of oddball things if you like to tinker.


The primary ROI here is the fact that for anywhere from 50-85% of the cost of a new purchase, I can get another lifecycle on an already purchased asset. That alone is huge, not even factoring in that I can buy a factory supported aftermarket case (Cooler Masters) and recycle the main board to make a PC for my mother or my neighbor down the street.

That and they have an outlet for refurbished or B-Stock items. So you can get a pre-built or outlet item for now, then upgrade later.
 
Top