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To distill or not distill what say ye?

Do you run only distilled water in your loop?

  • Yes, pure H2O or bust!

    Votes: 18 34.6%
  • Of course not, are you kidding me?

    Votes: 17 32.7%
  • The only time I water cool is when I spit on my air cooler.

    Votes: 17 32.7%

  • Total voters
    52
You say that as though there is literally any truth to it...and somehow it's an absolute. The rate at which a pure metal and plastic system oxidizes is functionally zero...because literally any oxidation that is visible is water insoluable. This is why aluminum is insanely reactive...and it's not considered as dangerous as something like sodium. The oxide layer that forms prevents any interaction, cannot be dissolved, and thus is not a problem visible to the naked eye...as anecdotally confirmed here. As a hint, this is not facts...because oxidation also 100% occurs in systems with the additives discussed...because water is water and adding an alcohol to it does virtually nothing to stop chemical processes.

What we see instead is fouling that far exceeds what we should see and would be attributable to water. Read: why I stated that he's selling us the solution he's also selling us that we have. You are welcome to be ignorant, claim that water is a problem...and then use water with a pinch of fairy dust. It doesn't solve to core issue of water creating the demonstrated fouling...which at its core is not a 1:1 "because you used distilled water" as is trying to be sold to us. Heck, it isn't even a 1:1 that his solution (in the chemical sense) will solve the problem...just that he's sure that anyone could demonstrate this failure and thus you take responsibility for any fouling if you don't use something "better than" distilled water. Shameless plug of his product page, and chemistry that isn't exactly on the level.


Oh my god...did I just accuse him of lying? No. Chemistry not on the level is like using the galvanic series of electronegativity to explain things...which many people may see and absolutely thing is proven science. Cool, cool. The thing is that the corrosion that is demonstrated is not necessarily electronegativity. What it is, is reactivity. In an aqueous solutions the electronegativity matters...assuming you've only got galvanic corrosion. The simple answer is battery = dissimilar metals+conductive aqueous environment makes energy and reduction reaction....wooo. Of course, the dissimilar metals are required...so it's a no-go with infinite supplies of the same metal and the minor amount of salt that will be made with the metal combining with ions in the water.

...let me say that one more time. HE HAS USED A GALVANIC SERIES ASSUMING THAT DISSIMILAR METALS WILL BE USED...
I say that in caps because, quite simply, and anecdotally defined, distilled water in systems is not the problem. You setting up a battery is the problem. Isn't it amazing that he'll sell you the solution to having a battery as additives meant to retard, but not prevent, oxidation. Again, RETARD. To slow down. Not prevent. I get to say that with a smile on my face, because the solution being sold isn't even a solution. It's a stop-gap. Amazing work. Slow clap.



Let me put this as a parallel. The US spent one million to develop a space pen, and the soviets used pencils (Space Pen article from Scientific American). The solution to have a weak acid not form a galvanic cell is to not use dissimilar metals...not to spend huge amounts on exotic coolants. I cannot even believe that you want to argue that distilled water is the problem...because it's so face palmingly stupid that I cannot adequately express how infuriating that your callous statement to another is...and I'd like nothing better than to ask why exactly you have the ego to say this. Then again, I also know that the people who are absolutely sure of themselves are either sure to fail or sure to show their clown shoes eventually...so thanks for letting me get frustrated. It's...good to remember how trusting people sucks, and trusting der8aur should be taken with that grain of salt.
Disimilar metals are always used. It is completely unavoidable, and therefore you have to use corrosion inhibitors.
Even if you used all one metal, differences in temper between machined and unmachined surfaces can cause galvanic corrosion.
You're doing a lot of talking, but I'm not sure what you are saying.
 
Disimilar metals are always used. It is completely unavoidable, and therefore you have to use corrosion inhibitors.
Even if you used all one metal, differences in temper between machined and unmachined surfaces can cause galvanic corrosion.
You're doing a lot of talking, but I'm not sure what you are saying.
That leaves me curious.
Has anyone tried to pH balance distilled with simple pool/household chemicals (like, Sodium Bicarbonate, etc)? Or, is adding any sort of 'electrolyte' just going to make the problem worse?
 
That leaves me curious.
Has anyone tried to pH balance distilled with simple pool/household chemicals (like, Sodium Bicarbonate, etc)? Or, is adding any sort of 'electrolyte' just going to make the problem worse?
I thought of that too but I'm afraid to use pool chemicals because I'm not sure they take much into consideration for metals at all. Judging by the corrosion that happened to my copper hose ends I would say don't do it. I used some extra hose to make a poor mans pool water warmer at one point.
 
Disimilar metals are always used. It is completely unavoidable, and therefore you have to use corrosion inhibitors.
Even if you used all one metal, differences in temper between machined and unmachined surfaces can cause galvanic corrosion.
No. Heat tempering a pure metal doesn't change its electronegativity. For a ferrous alloy, tempering can alter it slightly -- but the result would be so close to the original on the Pauling scale that galvanic corrosion is essentially impossible. Tempering is done for (among other reasons) to alter the surface properties to improve passivation and make the surface more resistant to chemical corrosion. ... but that isn't the same thing at all.

That leaves me curious.
Has anyone tried to pH balance distilled with simple pool/household chemicals (like, Sodium Bicarbonate, etc)? Or, is adding any sort of 'electrolyte' just going to make the problem worse?
Distilled, deionized water is perfectly balanced (ph 7.0) -- at least it starts that way. But water is incredibly good at absorbing ions from pretty much anything it's in contact with -- even CO2 from the air itself, to become slightly acidic. Pool chemicals balance ph in an exactly opposite manner -- you add acidic or alkaline compounds to cancel each other. This also "buffers" the water to resist further ph changes (there's so much junk floating around in the water that a small change on one side or the other doesn't have much effect).

The problem is that these chemicals generate salts, making the water conductive. But in a pool setting you're generally more concerned with scaling or chemical corrosion rather than galvanic corrosion, and you can't practically keep the water in a swimming pool deionized anyway.
 
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PC is air cooled.

Vehicle is 60% anti-freeze and 40% distilled water.

If I had liquid cooled PC it would probably be 10%-20% anti-freeze and 80%-90% distilled water.

edit - wow just skimmed through 3 pages, a few take aways

Distilled & de-ionized water should be fine if it's actually that and not tap water put in a jug with a label on it. Adding anti-freeze would probably help as it has additives for PH, lubrication, etc. I would guess it's probably naturally anti-microbial?

Next I would say thoroughly flush new gear, it could have left over residue cutting fluid from machining operations, or rust inhibiting coatings for long term storage etc. Don't want any of that mixing with your coolant.

For cooling blocks well find me one that comes with an MTR/Mill cert from a reputable/reliable source............I have seen cheap "overseas" copper piping develop pin hole leaks because of impurities in less than 5 years. Brass is another thing this can happen to, on this side of the pond it's typically ASTM specs that call out alloy % tolerances and impurity limits.
For example seamless copper water tube/pipe is ASTM B88, which usually calls out C12000 or C12200 copper alloy https://alloys.copper.org/alloy/C12000
Free machining brass would be copper alloy C36000 and probably fall under ASTM B16 https://www.anchorbronze.com/c36000
So sometimes it's the metals in the alloy and sometimes its the alloy not meeting specifications or too much impurities.

Another thing worth noting is that metals typically stand up better to bases better than acids.

In industry were we used large coolers using water, especially outdoor cooling towers we would have to add anti-microbe additives to the water.
 
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No. Heat tempering a pure metal doesn't change its electronegativity. For a ferrous alloy, tempering can alter it slightly -- but the result would be so close to the original on the Pauling scale that galvanic corrosion is essentially impossible. Tempering is done for (among other reasons) to alter the surface properties to improve passivation and make the surface more resistant to chemical corrosion. ... but that isn't the same thing at all.


Distilled, deionized water is perfectly balanced (ph 7.0) -- at least it starts that way. But water is incredibly good at absorbing ions from pretty much anything it's in contact with -- even CO2 from the air itself, to become slightly acidic. Pool chemicals balance ph in an exactly opposite manner -- you add acidic or alkaline compounds to cancel each other. This also "buffers" the water to resist further ph changes (there's so much junk floating around in the water that a small change on one side or the other doesn't have much effect).

The problem is that these chemicals generate salts, making the water conductive. But in a pool setting you're generally more concerned with scaling or chemical corrosion rather than galvanic corrosion, and you can't practically keep the water in a swimming pool deionized anyway.
I'm not sure about that. Hardened copper is less susceptible to galvanic corrosion than annealed copper. Therefore I believe they are different and would act in an unfavorable way next to eachother in a solution with no protection.
If I am wrong, what does it matter? There is no loop you can buy that is so purely of one metal that anything in my best-case devil's advocate statement matters.
In the real world, we are not worried about differences in hardness of an all-the-same loop, because that is not even an option.

Have anything to add to that?
 
I'm not sure about that. Hardened copper is less susceptible to galvanic corrosion than annealed copper. Therefore I believe they are different and would act in an unfavorable way next to eachother in a solution...
You're conflating a few things here. Firstly, passivation and heat tempering aren't mutually exclusive: metals are often passivated after (or before) tempering. And while you're correct that passivation reduces susceptibility to corrosion, it does so for galvanic and non-galvanic corrosion alike. Nor does it alter copper's electronegativity: place a passivated and non-passivated sample next to each other in an electrolyte, and no electrochemical potential is generated, and thus galvanic corrosion doesn't occur.

If I am wrong, what does it matter? There is no loop you can buy that is so purely of one metal
Really? I honestly have no idea, but I'd be quite surprised if one couldn't purchase an all-copper CPU cooling block and radiator. And regardless, the Pauling differential between copper and, say, nickel is negligible. The real problems come when you try to introduce a metal like aluminum into the mix.
 
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Really? I honestly have no idea, but I'd be quite surprised if one couldn't purchase an all-copper CPU cooling block and radiator. And regardless, the Pauling differential between copper and, say, nickel is negligible. The real problems come when you try to introduce a metal like aluminum into the mix.
Try. Buy an all-copper radiator, block, fittings, and pump.
Let me know how much progress you make.
Nickel plated copper blocks. Brass fittings. Brass being an amalgamation of metals. Brass radiator tanks soldered to copper tubing. Solder being an amalgamation of metals. Stainless steel pump shafts. Good luck finding all-copper. The subject video already covers this.
The subject video shows how the difference between just nickel and copper matters if you don't use corrosion inhibitors; not "negligible" at all. With corrosion inhibitors, negligible. Without corrosion inhibitors, not negligible. Weird, huh? Everything else just makes it worse.
Worse still, some people give no effort to grounding anything; even EMI shielding being tossed away and motherboard standoffs substituted with non-metalic, or non-metalic washers sandwiched on both sides. Differences in grounding, or one component being grounded vs another not, completely obliterates any attempt to control which metals are in the loop.

Use corrosion inhibitors. Don't blame others if you don't.

I believe science. If someone doesn't for their own stubborn reasons, all I can say is that the 'worst' 10-series EK block is perfectly fine after a decade when using proper coolant, while a better (?) 40xx EK block is ugly after just a year using distilled water, and a 10-series EK block using distilled water is involved in some sort of lawsuit or insurance claim. Any person who uses distilled water and has an opinion about the quality of one water block versus another has already proven my point. That doesn't make me 'angry' or 'arrogant'; it's just a logical conclusion that proves itself. There is no product that is identical and cost-cutting will always exist. As I said earlier, sure some blocks are better than others, but that never means that pure distilled water was a good choice to prevent corrosion. If you use a proper coolant, even the worst blocks are excellent.

Like I said earlier:
I suppose it goes like this:
When people were calling out EK for having 'bad nickel plating', when EK turned it on them by showing with science that it was the user's fault, the user rejected science in order to be right. I don't suppose that it matters to anyone that the science was right and that it caused PT to go out of business, as long as the user felt that their opinion was justified. And because of that, we still have holdouts who continue to pass on bad advice.
I suppose Der8auer knows this and that is why he is trying to get ahead of it before releasing their product and facing similar unwarranted product criticism.
 
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Distilled and de-ionized H2O will pull some metal off as it disassociates. Distilled water, a metallic base like moly disulfite for ion and its a lubricant and a wetting agent.
 
So this brings up another issue I've often pondered. Regardless if it's prepping a loop for the first time or trying to correct an issue of biological contamination, when needing to sterilize your loop what household agents are generally "safe" to use?
Bleach? I just do not think that you should leave it in the loop for a long time to avoid damage to some plastic or rubber components. I just ran it for 15 minutes and then flushed it away.

Luckily I've only had one issue with biological contamination since I started WC around 2016 and it was because of dumb mistake of using a non-sterilized container for a quick drain and refill on my NR200P build (RIP) and got a white bloom of growth for a short time before it seemed to stop that occurred in a relatively fresh batch of EK Cryofuel.
The source of contamination is unclear in my case, I bought the unit unused but I think it may have been stored for a while and when I drained original liquid from it, it did not appear completely clean.

Also the distilled water was a common "technical water", which is not really distilled and sterile, it is just deionised. It could have been stored in warm enviroment, etc.
 
PC is air cooled.

Vehicle is 60% anti-freeze and 40% distilled water.

If I had liquid cooled PC it would probably be 10%-20% anti-freeze and 80%-90% distilled water.

edit - wow just skimmed through 3 pages, a few take aways

Distilled & de-ionized water should be fine if it's actually that and not tap water put in a jug with a label on it. Adding anti-freeze would probably help as it has additives for PH, lubrication, etc. I would guess it's probably naturally anti-microbial?

Next I would say thoroughly flush new gear, it could have left over residue cutting fluid from machining operations, or rust inhibiting coatings for long term storage etc. Don't want any of that mixing with your coolant.

For cooling blocks well find me one that comes with an MTR/Mill cert from a reputable/reliable source............I have seen cheap "overseas" copper piping develop pin hole leaks because of impurities in less than 5 years. Brass is another thing this can happen to, on this side of the pond it's typically ASTM specs that call out alloy % tolerances and impurity limits.
For example seamless copper water tube/pipe is ASTM B88, which usually calls out C12000 or C12200 copper alloy https://alloys.copper.org/alloy/C12000
Free machining brass would be copper alloy C36000 and probably fall under ASTM B16 https://www.anchorbronze.com/c36000
So sometimes it's the metals in the alloy and sometimes its the alloy not meeting specifications or too much impurities.

Another thing worth noting is that metals typically stand up better to bases better than acids.

In industry were we used large coolers using water, especially outdoor cooling towers we would have to add anti-microbe additives to the water.

You need to have a high enough glycol concentration in the loop to prevent micro-organisms activity building up a biofilm on the heatexchanging surfaces.
One source said glycol concentration between 20% and 25% is known to be effective.
25% seems to be the best starting point , so topping off the loop will not dilute it to much.
Concentrations that fall significantly below 20% get less effective and microbes can even start to use glycol as a nutrient and produce acidic compounds which can cause corrosion.

--> The Biostatic Effect of Glycols in Closed Systems
 
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Bleach? I just do not think that you should leave it in the loop for a long time to avoid damage to some plastic or rubber components. I just ran it for 15 minutes and then flushed it away.


The source of contamination is unclear in my case, I bought the unit unused but I think it may have been stored for a while and when I drained original liquid from it, it did not appear completely clean.

Also the distilled water was a common "technical water", which is not really distilled and sterile, it is just deionised. It could have been stored in warm enviroment, etc.
Bleach!?
We're hopeless.
I wonder where the weird colors are coming from.
 
Disimilar metals are always used. It is completely unavoidable, and therefore you have to use corrosion inhibitors.
Even if you used all one metal, differences in temper between machined and unmachined surfaces can cause galvanic corrosion.
You're doing a lot of talking, but I'm not sure what you are saying.

You....jesus. I can't even accurately describe the levels of WTF.

Dissimilar metals are not required. Copper plate, copper block, copper fittings, copper cooling block. I say this because it's the system I've run for literal years. With distilled water. No visible corrosion similar to what was demonstrated. Likewise, there are self contained aluminum systems. The problems come from things like passivated aluminum fittings, copper blocks with a nickel plated surface, and all of the other shenanigans.

You do not understand metals. Tempering is a process by which you alter the mechanical properties of a metal by adjusting the grain boundary formation. If you let the thing cool really slow it's annealing, where the grain boundaries form roughly of the same size and largely at random. This isn't 100% true depending upon material size, as slower cooling forms much larger grains, but it's largely accurate. If you temper a thing by heating and then rapidly quenching it you get a part with very small outer grains and an internal stress situation. This creates something where the outside is very stable, the inside is a little less stable, but the net is something like a sword, where the hardness change allows the metal to enter certain loads better than would be possible in a homogeneous formation. This also starts a much larger discussion of work hardening, which stretches the grains in the direction of work. That makes the material more resistant to future work that applies work in the same direction. This is why work hardening materials (like some stainless steels or Incolnel) absolutely eat through bits and need annealing processes to bring those grains back to a workable condition.

What you have not seen above is anything about electrochemistry. Dissimilar metals are 100% about electronegativity...which is not a function of working the metal. I don't know what insanity possessed you to claim this it's like claiming that by working copper pipes you can magically prevent rusting...which is just pants on head crazy. Dissimilar metals, like the nickel plated or aluminum item that was shown, in an otherwise copper rich system, is the issue...not the distilled water. I cannot begin to tell you what insanity you are espousing...and I hope to god that you listen.


If you actually want to start educating yourself, I suggest looking up Martensitic steel. Once you understand the crystalline structure, grain boundaries, thermal treating, and everything else you may one day understand that the structure of a metal has nothing to do with CHEMICAL properties, and only its MECHANICAL properties. If you're looking at a claimed reduction reaction in an aqueous solution you'll never see someone factor in work hardening or crystalline structure unless they are crazy enough to try and pull a reaction rate calculation...which also runs based on geometry and not mechanical structure. But, I am reaching to try and give you the benefit of doubt regarding ignorance.

That leaves me curious.
Has anyone tried to pH balance distilled with simple pool/household chemicals (like, Sodium Bicarbonate, etc)? Or, is adding any sort of 'electrolyte' just going to make the problem worse?

Two words. Buffer solution.

This, for me at least, was high school chemistry. Let me explain this to you really simply, but please don't take offense if it's obvious to you.

If you take sugar, it dissolves in water. Add more, and more, and eventually it starts falling out of solution. It doesn't stay out of solution, it is in fact swapping some in solution for some out of solution, but this swap rate is very low. Now try it with salt. Salt, the table kind, is sodium chloride. In water it dissolves into sodium+ and chlorine- ions. Keep adding salt, and eventually the same thing happens. The capacity for Na+ and Cl- ions is reached. What if you then added a bunch of some other type of salt? This is the fun bit. You now have magnesium chloride (MgCl2) What starts falling out of solution?
That's right, table salt.

What?

Yes, the water now has Na+, Cl-, and Mg2+ ions. The Cl- ions are at their peak, so what happens? Well, there are already ions in the solution, right? Those H+ and OH- ions in the water aren't just for show. The salt actually stabilizes the pH of the solution, such that if you were to suddenly add a bit of acid to said solution (like carbonic acid formed when carbon dioxide dissolves in water) it would resist changing the ion balance, and thus resist changing pH.


Likewise, your pool uses the same stuff that bleach is made out of. Sodium hypochlorite. The point of this chemical is to change the pH...and it's why even people using salt pools can see value from adding bleach. Ironically enough, the goal of bleach is to kill stuff. Specifically plant life, pond scum, and other critters that would foul the water. By introducing a bunch of extra Na+, OCl- ions into the system you screw with the balance of H+ and OH- ions...and if you then add Na+ and CL- ions you can create a solution that balances the pH outside of the range stuff needs to live, and thus create crystal clear water in your pool.


So you are aware, there are several commercial solutions that already do this. A literal pinch of salt (electrolyte), and a minor lean towards being basic, and you've got a growth inhibitor. It's funny that once you understand the chemistry behind things you suddenly start understanding how they sell using snake oil because people just don't have the background to understand this...because high school might have been a long time ago and they probably didn't care a bunch about it when they were there anyways. pH boosters, stabilizers, anti-corrosion agents...these are shiny new ways of selling water+salt+acid or base.

Try. Buy an all-copper radiator, block, fittings, and pump.
Let me know how much progress you make.
Nickel plated copper blocks. Brass fittings. Brass being an amalgamation of metals. Brass radiator tanks soldered to copper tubing. Solder being an amalgamation of metals. Stainless steel pump shafts. Good luck finding all-copper. The subject video already covers this.
The subject video shows how the difference between just nickel and copper matters if you don't use corrosion inhibitors; not "negligible" at all. With corrosion inhibitors, negligible. Without corrosion inhibitors, not negligible. Weird, huh? Everything else just makes it worse.
Worse still, some people give no effort to grounding anything; even EMI shielding being tossed away and motherboard standoffs substituted with non-metalic, or non-metalic washers sandwiched on both sides. Differences in grounding, or one component being grounded vs another not, completely obliterates any attempt to control which metals are in the loop.

Use corrosion inhibitors. Don't blame others if you don't.

I believe science. If someone doesn't for their own stubborn reasons, all I can say is that the 'worst' 10-series EK block is perfectly fine after a decade when using proper coolant, while a better (?) 40xx EK block is ugly after just a year using distilled water, and a 10-series EK block using distilled water is involved in some sort of lawsuit or insurance claim. Any person who uses distilled water and has an opinion about the quality of one water block versus another has already proven my point. That doesn't make me 'angry' or 'arrogant'; it's just a logical conclusion that proves itself. There is no product that is identical and cost-cutting will always exist. As I said earlier, sure some blocks are better than others, but that never means that pure distilled water was a good choice to prevent corrosion. If you use a proper coolant, even the worst blocks are excellent.

Like I said earlier:
I suppose it goes like this:
When people were calling out EK for having 'bad nickel plating', when EK turned it on them by showing with science that it was the user's fault, the user rejected science in order to be right. I don't suppose that it matters to anyone that the science was right and that it caused PT to go out of business, as long as the user felt that their opinion was justified. And because of that, we still have holdouts who continue to pass on bad advice.
I suppose Der8auer knows this and that is why he is trying to get ahead of it before releasing their product and facing similar unwarranted product criticism.

Brass is tin+copper. Copper is copper. Brass does not fall apart...because the crystal structure allows for replacement in similar metals. Jesus, this has been known since the literal bronze age, which is an alloy of copper and zinc. Also something fundamentally stable when produced.

Solder is not generally used in pressure fittings...which are machined copper and plastic tubing. Copper is not preferred for machining given that it is expensive, gummy when worked, and did I mention pretty unforgiving? Not favored is different from not made, because $10 for a fitting definitely motivates niche production of these. Again, I know because I've bought them.

System in question ran weekly from 2011 to 2021 (only monthly now). Three total water changes. Distilled water and a small shot of vinegar to initially condition and test the system. Drained, then filled with pure distilled water from the gallon jug. The rest gets added to my clothing iron, so when it evaporates my clothes aren't mineral rich and crunchy.


How about another reality? How about cars? How about them literally being able to run with water more efficiently than with anti-freeze...which is still mostly water with glycols? Most cars utilize an aluminum motor block, an aluminum radiator, and can run for literal decades without the system completely falling apart. Historically of course the inclusion of glycol was made to retard the reaction of iron blocks and aluminum radiators, because in the 1950s they were aware of the galvanic decay. I mean, they also generally utilize a set of block soldered together as their radiator to dramatically decrease the cost of manufacture, and the very low glycol amount in the radiator is generally viewed as better given that the water flowing around in it is often well past the point where regular water boils (thus being necessary to add something to push that boiling point to prevent a runaway thermal event given cavitation of the fluid along the metal surface functionally prevents any thermal transfer via the fun of the Leidenfrost effect. But that's another entire ball of concentrated crazy.



Man, you really seem like you "know" what is going on, but have PHB syndrome. That is to say Pointy Haired Boss syndrome. A condition characterized by the absolute knowledge of a thing because you know science, but whenever that core science is demonstrated wrong you cannot admit that you're ignorant and thus have to shout louder that you know what you are talking about because the science doesn't lie.

Let me leave you with an example of what I'm talking through...and let me explain why "proper coolant" is not an answer. Amazon link, water cooler starter kit. It starts out good...and then gets stupid. Aluminum fittings...fine. Aluminum radiator...fine. Plastic reservoir...also fine. Aluminum plugs. Good. Copper CPU block...WTF. They are selling you a solution that is 80% good, and then it fails on step one with a copper block that will rapidly accumulate issues if anything is used inside of it. For about double the cost, you can go entirely copper (Alphacool starter kit). Note it uses a ton of copper, and nickel plated copper. The Nickel isn't ideal...but it is also a plating over the copper. Based on the fact that it isn't falling apart, these metals are more than similar enough to coexist without galvanic reductions. It's almost like when "professional" solutions can't even understand what dissimilar metals will create...so it's entirely reasonable for somebody like der8auer to put out a video saying that you NEED their fluid, and claim that distilled water is the problem. It's 100% crap, but it's the very simple answer that makes stupid people feel like they're smart enough to solve a problem...even if they never really had the problem...because you are solving a discrepancy in chemistry and not a problem magically inherent specifically and only to distilled water.

I'll finish by stating the painfully obvious. The galvanic reaction is what is assumed to be happening. Rusting is not only galvanic reactions...so the old friend GIGO makes an appearance. Garbage in, garbage out. Trying to retroactively be great because you knew that glycol was required, and anybody not using it is stupid, is showing that you can buy into the BS. Congrats. The now 13 and change year old system that I've got, with distilled water, isn't fouled. Either that means my distilled water had magic pixie dust, or you've got a problem with your rant that can be summed into a single word. Reality.
 
You....jesus. I can't even accurately describe the levels of WTF.

Dissimilar metals are not required. Copper plate, copper block, copper fittings, copper cooling block. I say this because it's the system I've run for literal years. With distilled water. No visible corrosion similar to what was demonstrated. Likewise, there are self contained aluminum systems. The problems come from things like passivated aluminum fittings, copper blocks with a nickel plated surface, and all of the other shenanigans.

You do not understand metals. Tempering is a process by which you alter the mechanical properties of a metal by adjusting the grain boundary formation. If you let the thing cool really slow it's annealing, where the grain boundaries form roughly of the same size and largely at random. This isn't 100% true depending upon material size, as slower cooling forms much larger grains, but it's largely accurate. If you temper a thing by heating and then rapidly quenching it you get a part with very small outer grains and an internal stress situation. This creates something where the outside is very stable, the inside is a little less stable, but the net is something like a sword, where the hardness change allows the metal to enter certain loads better than would be possible in a homogeneous formation. This also starts a much larger discussion of work hardening, which stretches the grains in the direction of work. That makes the material more resistant to future work that applies work in the same direction. This is why work hardening materials (like some stainless steels or Incolnel) absolutely eat through bits and need annealing processes to bring those grains back to a workable condition.

What you have not seen above is anything about electrochemistry. Dissimilar metals are 100% about electronegativity...which is not a function of working the metal. I don't know what insanity possessed you to claim this it's like claiming that by working copper pipes you can magically prevent rusting...which is just pants on head crazy. Dissimilar metals, like the nickel plated or aluminum item that was shown, in an otherwise copper rich system, is the issue...not the distilled water. I cannot begin to tell you what insanity you are espousing...and I hope to god that you listen.


If you actually want to start educating yourself, I suggest looking up Martensitic steel. Once you understand the crystalline structure, grain boundaries, thermal treating, and everything else you may one day understand that the structure of a metal has nothing to do with CHEMICAL properties, and only its MECHANICAL properties. If you're looking at a claimed reduction reaction in an aqueous solution you'll never see someone factor in work hardening or crystalline structure unless they are crazy enough to try and pull a reaction rate calculation...which also runs based on geometry and not mechanical structure. But, I am reaching to try and give you the benefit of doubt regarding ignorance.



Two words. Buffer solution.

This, for me at least, was high school chemistry. Let me explain this to you really simply, but please don't take offense if it's obvious to you.

If you take sugar, it dissolves in water. Add more, and more, and eventually it starts falling out of solution. It doesn't stay out of solution, it is in fact swapping some in solution for some out of solution, but this swap rate is very low. Now try it with salt. Salt, the table kind, is sodium chloride. In water it dissolves into sodium+ and chlorine- ions. Keep adding salt, and eventually the same thing happens. The capacity for Na+ and Cl- ions is reached. What if you then added a bunch of some other type of salt? This is the fun bit. You now have magnesium chloride (MgCl2) What starts falling out of solution?
That's right, table salt.

What?

Yes, the water now has Na+, Cl-, and Mg2+ ions. The Cl- ions are at their peak, so what happens? Well, there are already ions in the solution, right? Those H+ and OH- ions in the water aren't just for show. The salt actually stabilizes the pH of the solution, such that if you were to suddenly add a bit of acid to said solution (like carbonic acid formed when carbon dioxide dissolves in water) it would resist changing the ion balance, and thus resist changing pH.


Likewise, your pool uses the same stuff that bleach is made out of. Sodium hypochlorite. The point of this chemical is to change the pH...and it's why even people using salt pools can see value from adding bleach. Ironically enough, the goal of bleach is to kill stuff. Specifically plant life, pond scum, and other critters that would foul the water. By introducing a bunch of extra Na+, OCl- ions into the system you screw with the balance of H+ and OH- ions...and if you then add Na+ and CL- ions you can create a solution that balances the pH outside of the range stuff needs to live, and thus create crystal clear water in your pool.


So you are aware, there are several commercial solutions that already do this. A literal pinch of salt (electrolyte), and a minor lean towards being basic, and you've got a growth inhibitor. It's funny that once you understand the chemistry behind things you suddenly start understanding how they sell using snake oil because people just don't have the background to understand this...because high school might have been a long time ago and they probably didn't care a bunch about it when they were there anyways. pH boosters, stabilizers, anti-corrosion agents...these are shiny new ways of selling water+salt+acid or base.



Brass is tin+copper. Copper is copper. Brass does not fall apart...because the crystal structure allows for replacement in similar metals. Jesus, this has been known since the literal bronze age, which is an alloy of copper and zinc. Also something fundamentally stable when produced.

Solder is not generally used in pressure fittings...which are machined copper and plastic tubing. Copper is not preferred for machining given that it is expensive, gummy when worked, and did I mention pretty unforgiving? Not favored is different from not made, because $10 for a fitting definitely motivates niche production of these. Again, I know because I've bought them.

System in question ran weekly from 2011 to 2021 (only monthly now). Three total water changes. Distilled water and a small shot of vinegar to initially condition and test the system. Drained, then filled with pure distilled water from the gallon jug. The rest gets added to my clothing iron, so when it evaporates my clothes aren't mineral rich and crunchy.


How about another reality? How about cars? How about them literally being able to run with water more efficiently than with anti-freeze...which is still mostly water with glycols? Most cars utilize an aluminum motor block, an aluminum radiator, and can run for literal decades without the system completely falling apart. Historically of course the inclusion of glycol was made to retard the reaction of iron blocks and aluminum radiators, because in the 1950s they were aware of the galvanic decay. I mean, they also generally utilize a set of block soldered together as their radiator to dramatically decrease the cost of manufacture, and the very low glycol amount in the radiator is generally viewed as better given that the water flowing around in it is often well past the point where regular water boils (thus being necessary to add something to push that boiling point to prevent a runaway thermal event given cavitation of the fluid along the metal surface functionally prevents any thermal transfer via the fun of the Leidenfrost effect. But that's another entire ball of concentrated crazy.



Man, you really seem like you "know" what is going on, but have PHB syndrome. That is to say Pointy Haired Boss syndrome. A condition characterized by the absolute knowledge of a thing because you know science, but whenever that core science is demonstrated wrong you cannot admit that you're ignorant and thus have to shout louder that you know what you are talking about because the science doesn't lie.

Let me leave you with an example of what I'm talking through...and let me explain why "proper coolant" is not an answer. Amazon link, water cooler starter kit. It starts out good...and then gets stupid. Aluminum fittings...fine. Aluminum radiator...fine. Plastic reservoir...also fine. Aluminum plugs. Good. Copper CPU block...WTF. They are selling you a solution that is 80% good, and then it fails on step one with a copper block that will rapidly accumulate issues if anything is used inside of it. For about double the cost, you can go entirely copper (Alphacool starter kit). Note it uses a ton of copper, and nickel plated copper. The Nickel isn't ideal...but it is also a plating over the copper. Based on the fact that it isn't falling apart, these metals are more than similar enough to coexist without galvanic reductions. It's almost like when "professional" solutions can't even understand what dissimilar metals will create...so it's entirely reasonable for somebody like der8auer to put out a video saying that you NEED their fluid, and claim that distilled water is the problem. It's 100% crap, but it's the very simple answer that makes stupid people feel like they're smart enough to solve a problem...even if they never really had the problem...because you are solving a discrepancy in chemistry and not a problem magically inherent specifically and only to distilled water.

I'll finish by stating the painfully obvious. The galvanic reaction is what is assumed to be happening. Rusting is not only galvanic reactions...so the old friend GIGO makes an appearance. Garbage in, garbage out. Trying to retroactively be great because you knew that glycol was required, and anybody not using it is stupid, is showing that you can buy into the BS. Congrats. The now 13 and change year old system that I've got, with distilled water, isn't fouled. Either that means my distilled water had magic pixie dust, or you've got a problem with your rant that can be summed into a single word. Reality.
Are you feeling okay?

I'm not sure why you have such a strong opinion about theoreticals and why you don't think one thing or another thing matters, when this is all already conclusively proven time and time again; in the lab and in the real world.

You tell me that an all-copper loop is possible, but it doesn't exist.
 
Are you feeling okay?

I'm not sure why you have such a strong opinion about theoreticals and why you don't think one thing or another thing matters, when this is all already conclusively proven time and time again; in the lab and in the real world.

You tell me that an all-copper loop is possible, but it doesn't exist.

READ YOU ............................................

I realize that you are ignorant.
I realize you don't understand chemistry.
I realize you don't understand metallurgy
I realize that you may not even understand the English language at this point.

All of that said...I demonstrated a pure metal loop. It was the linked Alphacool one. I realize you may not understand the words...but similar metals, which are plated onto one another, do not produce a galvanic reaction. The fouling demonstrated is a galvanic reduction, based upon the evidence provided by THE VIDEO IN THE OP. I cannot tell if you're an idiot, a troll, or someone who genuinely cannot see there's a difference between nickel plated copper and aluminum being mixed. Being infinitely frank at this point, you either don't want to understand or would give a black hole a real run for its money in a competition of density.


Whatever. You want to be right, so go be right in idiot land. While you're there I suggest that you not drink the tap water, because it's making the frogs gay. You can also take the super vitamin pills just chock full of vitamin C, because that'll prevent you from ever getting sick. Round it out with a collection of tinctures to cure everything. Remember, a substance that is diluted 100:1 100 times is 0.01^100 or 1 part in 1*10^200. The Earth contains 1.33*10^50 atoms. For a better grasp on that stupidly huge number, the amount of atoms estimated in the universe is 10^80....so you need more atoms of the thing added to water than exist if you had a number of universes equivalent to the amount of atoms in our universe...and that's only be 10^160...or 10^40 more times. This is why a tincture of arsenic doesn't kill you...not because the water "has a memory of the arsenic that is in fact healing." Yes, I'm aware of BS science that is fun to quote back at people because it really should make them wonder if they're stupid...because "I know science" is the justification for something fun like a single drop of water in the ocean contains the memory of all human feces and urination if you believe in tinctures...and at that point I just need to stop because if you don't understand your fundamental stupidity you never will.


Let me suggest some things to...make you less ignorant.
Annealing
Work hardening
Crystalline Structure
Grain boundaries
Electronegativity
Reduction reaction
Galvanic reduction reaction
And let me close with a 3rd grader being able to beat your level of competence to explain things. A potato, zinc, and copper creation that you can watch produce a galvanic reduction reaction. The potato clock.

I lied. pH, buffer solutions, and atomic packing. If you went to school in the US in the last 4 decades we call this at worst high school level chemistry, and at best college level engineering and materials science. You'll blow your mind with alloys, and how many different types of steel there are...and the hint here is that if you ever actually decide to think things through you could actually be educated enough to question when a youtube personality known for cooling suddenly comes out against distilled water...when he has a new product...and then explains the wrong chemistry to describe a failure. Like a certain individual telling the world building an air hockey table inside of a giant metal vacuum tube is "not that complicated."
 
READ YOU ............................................

I realize that you are ignorant.
I realize you don't understand chemistry.
I realize you don't understand metallurgy
I realize that you may not even understand the English language at this point.

All of that said...I demonstrated a pure metal loop. It was the linked Alphacool one. I realize you may not understand the words...but similar metals, which are plated onto one another, do not produce a galvanic reaction. The fouling demonstrated is a galvanic reduction, based upon the evidence provided by THE VIDEO IN THE OP. I cannot tell if you're an idiot, a troll, or someone who genuinely cannot see there's a difference between nickel plated copper and aluminum being mixed. Being infinitely frank at this point, you either don't want to understand or would give a black hole a real run for its money in a competition of density.


Whatever. You want to be right, so go be right in idiot land. While you're there I suggest that you not drink the tap water, because it's making the frogs gay. You can also take the super vitamin pills just chock full of vitamin C, because that'll prevent you from ever getting sick. Round it out with a collection of tinctures to cure everything. Remember, a substance that is diluted 100:1 100 times is 0.01^100 or 1 part in 1*10^200. The Earth contains 1.33*10^50 atoms. For a better grasp on that stupidly huge number, the amount of atoms estimated in the universe is 10^80....so you need more atoms of the thing added to water than exist if you had a number of universes equivalent to the amount of atoms in our universe...and that's only be 10^160...or 10^40 more times. This is why a tincture of arsenic doesn't kill you...not because the water "has a memory of the arsenic that is in fact healing." Yes, I'm aware of BS science that is fun to quote back at people because it really should make them wonder if they're stupid...because "I know science" is the justification for something fun like a single drop of water in the ocean contains the memory of all human feces and urination if you believe in tinctures...and at that point I just need to stop because if you don't understand your fundamental stupidity you never will.


Let me suggest some things to...make you less ignorant.
Annealing
Work hardening
Crystalline Structure
Grain boundaries
Electronegativity
Reduction reaction
Galvanic reduction reaction
And let me close with a 3rd grader being able to beat your level of competence to explain things. A potato, zinc, and copper creation that you can watch produce a galvanic reduction reaction. The potato clock.

I lied. pH, buffer solutions, and atomic packing. If you went to school in the US in the last 4 decades we call this at worst high school level chemistry, and at best college level engineering and materials science. You'll blow your mind with alloys, and how many different types of steel there are...and the hint here is that if you ever actually decide to think things through you could actually be educated enough to question when a youtube personality known for cooling suddenly comes out against distilled water...when he has a new product...and then explains the wrong chemistry to describe a failure. Like a certain individual telling the world building an air hockey table inside of a giant metal vacuum tube is "not that complicated."
Where in the OP video was aluminum used?
He stuck a nickel plated copper block into distilled water in a glass container.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Or what you think the point of this thread is. I'm not sure what you are arguing.

There is no all-copper loop. I guarantee it.

There is overwhelming evidence that anyone who has a distilled water loop realizes the consequences. There is plenty in this thread already. Even the people who are pro distilled water observe the results.

I have a 10-year old EK 1080 block -- the worst blocks EK made when it comes to this subject -- and guess what?

You can't argue with evidence.

Just to emphasize...
The fouling demonstrated is a galvanic reduction, based upon the evidence provided by THE VIDEO IN THE OP. I cannot tell if you're an idiot, a troll, or someone who genuinely cannot see there's a difference between nickel plated copper and aluminum being mixed. Being infinitely frank at this point, you either don't want to understand or would give a black hole a real run for its money in a competition of density.
What video did you watch? What's the subject of this thread?
 
Where in the OP video was aluminum used?
He stuck a nickel plated copper block into distilled water in a glass container ...
Good lord, this is getting ridiculous. He poured water on nickel-plated copper and heated it for an extended period -- in an open container. Do you know what hot distilled water does in contact with the air? It rapidly absorbs CO2, forming large amounts of carbonic acid. The "corrosion" you saw in that video wasn't galvanic corrosion -- it was the chemical corrosion of that acid eating away the nickel. Nickel electroplating is generally only a few microns thick ... chemical corrosion will eat that away quickly.

When I was in graduate school, one of the labs held a very large heat exchanger, cast out of Monel sometime in the 1940s. It had been in constant use since then, continually submerged -- with zero visible corrosion. Know what Monel is? An alloy of copper and -- wait for it -- nickel.
 
You....jesus. I can't even accurately describe the levels of WTF.

Dissimilar metals are not required. Copper plate, copper block, copper fittings, copper cooling block.

No one sells all copper parts anymore, it's virtually impossible to get a pure copper loop.
Even De8auer wont' sell an all copper blocks, because he mentions that people get their fingerprints all over the outside. (sandpaper is perfectly fine for removing those oils, like people can't buy gloves.) It's all nickel plated, or nothing.
 
Have you considered flushing your loop with regular unfiltered tap water? It has drinkably safe levels of anti corrosion agents and hard water build up shouldn't be a concern with the quantity of water used for flushing the loop.
 
Copper naturally coats it's self to prevent decay. That's why the most expensive and longest lasting roof are made of copper....

So not always is discoloration on copper a bad thing. It may look bad, but it's what copper does.

@lilhasselhoffer ,please look up engine coolants and their chemistry.

Please keep in mind, aluminum block also has plastic, rubber, and several different types of metals in the cooling system or touching the cooling system. Most freeze plugs are stamped steel. Coolant inlet and outlet barbs can be a variety of metals. Copper and brass are very common in engine cooling systems as well. Not always high content, never the less present there. And the boiling point of an engine cooling system relies on the pressure cap. Most common is between 10 and 20psi systems. The coolant is also designed for around -35 to -45°F for those winter months. Back in the day, service shops existed because Propylene Glycol was a yearly interval. Ethylene Glycol, more commonly used today still requires service, just less often (example OAT extended life coolant), but of course you knew that because you studied the owners manual of that new 35k dollar car you bought new (or whatever, I'm guessing).

But do get back to me on the coolant chemistry, I'd like to hear your thoughts about it strictly speaking by any specification facts. Because there's always a why to what a chemist does. You may want to concentrate on a single engine and the type of coolant and why they might recommend that over a different coolant for a different engine. I'm sure the science is actually pretty deep.
 
Lessons learned, Nickel plating is not a solution to corrosion. Building every component out of copper or aluminum would mean functionally no losses over years of exposure. People are stupid, because we want to combine metals and think that the chemistry is simple. The morale of the story is use the same material through the entire process, or include some antifreeze to stabilize the solution. Our German source here is not telling us the full truth because he's got a product to sell. That doesn't make him wrong, but it does mean a creative interpretation of reality to try and sell you his solution to your problems needs to be addressed and weighed. In this case, weighed against the bunk he's touting which anecdotally is the same silliness that people have been spouting for years because trying to explain chemistry is an uphill battle.
This is what I learnt 10 years ago when I started water cooling, don't mix metals because galvanic corrosion. 10 years of plain distilled with a silver kill coil, all copper. The silvers an extra metal but so far it's been fine.
 
Good lord, this is getting ridiculous. He poured water on nickel-plated copper and heated it for an extended period -- in an open container. Do you know what hot distilled water does in contact with the air? It rapidly absorbs CO2, forming large amounts of carbonic acid. The "corrosion" you saw in that video wasn't galvanic corrosion -- it was the chemical corrosion of that acid eating away the nickel. Nickel electroplating is generally only a few microns thick ... chemical corrosion will eat that away quickly.

When I was in graduate school, one of the labs held a very large heat exchanger, cast out of Monel sometime in the 1940s. It had been in constant use since then, continually submerged -- with zero visible corrosion. Know what Monel is? An alloy of copper and -- wait for it -- nickel.
Sweet. There is heat in a loop and air in a loop. In the form of bubbles, in the head of the reservoir, permeating through the tubing, or dissolved in the fluid. There are pH issues. There are galvanic issues. There are grounding issues causing electrolytic issues. There are triboelectric issues. There are issues on issues.

I show you everyone who uses distilled water in their loops, discolored, plugged up, corroded, eroded, or any in-between state. And your response is what?

I'm not sure what either one of you are arguing. Have you not seen the result? It is common. It is a trend. It is just what it is. It exists.

Are you two living in some alternate reality that has caused you not to see it?

Ones with distilled water in all sorts of states of degredation. Ones with coolant, not.

Edit: If you think his testing methodology is wrong, tell him, not me. If he used the wrong test and came to that conclusion for the wrong reasons, tell him. He is a reasonable person. That doesn't change the fact that people who use distilled water have more problems than people who use coolants with anti-corrosive additives. Galvanic issues (among others) definitely exist, but according to you he tested that one thing wrong. Maybe him failing to do the test in the way you wished he did somehow makes you reject his end result. How you reject everyone else's end result, I don't know. I think his testing is valid, does test one issue that actually does exist, and proves that one behaves worse than the other. Me with the pristine EK 10-series block after a decade of use is the ultimate proof.
 
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Just to throw something new into the mix (pun intended) what do you think about additional grounding connected to the loop such as with a wire from a fitting to the PC chassis?
Or somehow the incorporation of sacrificial metals to the water cooling system such as used on boats and hot water heaters?
 
This is what I learnt 10 years ago when I started water cooling, don't mix metals because galvanic corrosion. 10 years of plain distilled with a silver kill coil, all copper. The silvers an extra metal but so far it's been fine.
Oof. Gross.
Good luck to you!

Your loop is not all-copper. Copper, nickel, zinc, tin, and stainless steel at the bare minimum.
 
Sweet. There is heat in a loop and air in a loop. In form of bubbles, or dissolved.
I considered addressing this in my last post, but had hoped my "open air" hint was enough for you to avoid the mistake. CO2's atmospheric concentration is only 400ppm -- a few bubbles or even a small trapped air column doesn't contain enough to appreciably alter the water chemistry. And if the water already contains a large amount of dissolved air , well it's not "distilled water" any longer; the entire point of distillation is to remove such impurities.

Why not learn the science here? Copper has an electronegativity of 1.90, Nickel 1.91. That similarity is why CuNi alloys (like Monel) are so resistant to galvanic corrosion. Maritime applications often have cupronickel parts exposed to water decades -- and not distilled water, but harshly corrosive salt water. And no, the the Atlantic Ocean isn't filled with corrosion inhibitors.

. There are pH issues. There are galvanic issues. There are grounding issues causing electrolytic issues. There are triboelectric issues.
You're using words you don't understand if you believe triboelectric static charging can generate significant corrosion. And if you're running current through your cooling system due to a "grounding issue", you have far bigger problems than corrosion.

If you think his testing methodology is wrong, tell him, not me.
It's not his methodology as much as the false conclusions you're drawing from it. You weren't seeing galvanic corrosion, nor should you be surprised that submering any in a mildly acidic bath will cause chemical corrosion. That's why you use distilled water, bleed off any air, and adjust the ph to, if anything slightly alkaline.

Yes, inhibitors are helpful. But they're not the magic bullet believe. If you have a ph imbalance or dissimilar-metal issue, they'll slow the rate of corrosion, but not eliminate the problem. Even worse is the fact that there aretradeoffs involved. An effective passivator for one metal may actually worsen corrosion for another, whereas an inhibitor designed to reduce galvanic corrosion can increase chemical corrosion.
 
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