To distill or not distill what say ye?

[ty_ger]

I considered addressing this in my last post, but had hoped my "open air" hint was enough for you to avoid the mistake. CO2's atmospheric concentration is only 400ppm -- a few bubbles or even a small trapped air column doesn't contain enough to appreciably alter the water chemistry. And if the water already contains a large amount of dissolved air , well it's not "distilled water" any longer; the entire point of distillation is to remove such impurities.

Why not learn the science here? Copper has an electronegativity of 1.90, Nickel 1.91. That similarity is why CuNi alloys (like Monel) are so resistant to galvanic corrosion. Maritime applications often have cupronickel parts exposed to water decades -- and not distilled water, but harshly corrosive salt water. And no, the the Atlantic Ocean isn't filled with corrosion inhibitors.


You're using words you don't understand if you believe triboelectric static charging can generate significant corrosion. And if you're running current through your cooling system due to a "grounding issue", you have far bigger problems than corrosion.


It's not his methodology as much as the false conclusions you're drawing from it. You weren't seeing galvanic corrosion, nor should you be surprised that submering any in a mildly acidic bath will cause chemical corrosion. That's why you use distilled water, bleed off any air, and adjust the ph to, if anything slightly alkaline.

Yes, inhibitors are helpful. But they're not the magic bullet believe. If you have a ph imbalance or dissimilar-metal issue, they'll slow the rate of corrosion, but not eliminate the problem. Even worse is the fact that there aretradeoffs involved. An effective passivator for one metal may actually worsen corrosion for another, whereas an inhibitor designed to reduce galvanic corrosion can increase chemical corrosion.

It's the conclusions I am drawing from the conclusions he said? Interesting.

I'm no chemist. I'm saying what he said. And my belief is based on what I know works.

It's clear that you think his testing methodology is wrong for the conclusion he stated.

If you know what works, why continue to defend what you know doesn't?

 

[Endymio]

It's clear that you think his testing methodology is wrong for the conclusion he stated.

If you know what works, why continue to defend what you know doesn't?

I don't know how much clearer we can explain this to you. What you saw in that video was not galvanic corrosion, nor did he claim it was. And yes, if your loop contains a hot acid bath, you'll certainly wish to add some inhibitors to it ... not that they'll do anything but slow the corrosion somewhat.

A better solution is to eliminate the causes of corrosion itself. Or if you prefer, you can be the man who wears a belt and suspenders. No dissimilar metals, distilled, deionized water that's kept at or slightly above neutral -- and add a small amount of inhibitors as cheap insurance.

 

[ty_ger]

I don't know how much clearer we can explain this to you. What you saw in that video was not galvanic corrosion, nor did he claim it was. And yes, if your loop contains a hot acid bath, you'll certainly wish to add some inhibitors to it ... not that they'll do anything but slow the corrosion somewhat.

A better solution is to eliminate the causes of corrosion itself. Or if you prefer, you can be the man who wears a belt and suspenders. No dissimilar metals, distilled, deionized water that's kept at or slightly above neutral -- and add a small amount of inhibitors as cheap insurance.

I suggest that you watch the video again. The whole point of the video is why people need to stop using distilled water, because dissimilar metals are impossible to avoid, because it causes issues (visual at best), because he is selling a product that he does't want people to bash due to old stubborn beliefs and habbits (my words).

And I suggest you look at real-world results again.

 

[Endymio]

I suggest that you watch the video again. The whole point of the video is why people need to stop using distilled water, because dissimilar metals are impossible to avoid

Your statement simply shows you don't understand what you saw. What happened there was not due to "dissimilar metals". It's what one would expect when you electroplate a few atoms atop anything -- a hot acid bath will strip off those atoms rather quickly.

And I suggest you look at real-world results again.

I've given you my real-world results with copper-nickel alloys lasting decades without appreciable corrosion.

 

[A Computer Guy]

So if we step back a bit, when using only distilled water, it can work but we just need to make sure the environment (aka: the loop) meets enough criteria to prevent it from becoming or carrying an effective electrolyte. When the fluid becomes and effective electrolyte that's when galvanic corrosion becomes a problem, correct? In order to prevent chemical corrosion you need to ensure the fluid does not become acidic, correct?

 

[Jacky_BEL]

If you want your investment of a watercooling setup to last a long time , you can not just fill it with distilled water and hope the condition of the coolant stays good.
You can start to add all kinds of conditioning and buffering chemicals , and regularly check your loop.
Or you can fill the loop with distilled water and a high enough concentration of automotive engine coolant and be done with it.

 

[ty_ger]

Your statement simply shows you don't understand what you saw. What happened there was not due to "dissimilar metals". It's what one would expect when you electroplate a few atoms atop anything -- a hot acid bath will strip off those atoms rather quickly.


I've given you my real-world results with copper-nickel alloys lasting decades without appreciable corrosion.

Cool. You're saying that he didn't understand what he saw either. Tell him that.

Look at his conclusion. Look at his motivation. Look at his message.

Tell him why he used the wrong testing methodology to illustrate his message.

Does your real-world result include copper, nickel, tin, zinc, and stainless steel? Does it include high-powered components, unequal grounding, equal grounding that is impossible to achieve even in the best circumstances, and thus electrolysis? Does it show that everyone who does have corroded blocks are lying?

According to you, at worst, Roman (der8auer) illustrated that one coolant is better than the other, even if you disagree with his methodology.

 

[Endymio]

So if we step back a bit, when using only distilled water, it can work but we just need to make sure the environment (aka: the loop) meets enough criteria to prevent it from becoming or carrying an effective electrolyte. When the fluid becomes and effective electrolyte that's when galvanic corrosion becomes a problem, correct? In order to prevent chemical corrosion you need to ensure the fluid does not become acidic, correct?

Yes. Though keeping water from having at least a few stray ions is nearly impossible, which is why highly dissimilar metals are usually problematic.

Tell him why he used the wrong testing methodology to illustrate his message.

He knows why already. He's a snake oil salesman with product to push.

And while corrosion inhibitors aren't strictly "snake oil", the tactics used to sell them can rival any mountebank's. Vitamin C is an essential compound ... but it doesn't cure cancer.

Does [your real world example] include high-powered components, unequal grounding, equal grounding that is impossible to achieve even in the best circumstances, and thus electrolysis?

My example includes far higher-powered components than a personal PC, yes. And if you're running significant current through your cooling loop, then you have much bigger problems than corrosion, "unequal grounding" or no.

Does it show that everyone who does have corroded blocks are lying?

You're not being accused of lying, just of a failure to understand the root causes of corrosion. Calm down drama queen.

 

[A Computer Guy]

And while corrosion inhibitors aren't strictly "snake oil", the tactics used to sell them can rival any mountebank's. Vitamin C is an essential compound ... but it doesn't cure cancer.

EK is kind of in the same boat. "Do not rinse the entire loop with distilled water. Instead, use the EK-Cryofuel Superflush solution.". Nevermind distilled water is a key ingredient prior to additives being introduced. I suppose if one's distilled water source is really bad an issue might occur for a quick rinse or flush.

On the other hand I think Superflush is most likely to be used for dissolving and flushing out dyes and impurities such as during first time loop prep or when changing colors. They of course wouldn't mind for $27 a bottle if you used it every year (maybe 2) you changed your fluid.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

EK is kind of in the same boat. "Do not rinse the entire loop with distilled water. Instead, use the EK-Cryofuel Superflush solution.". Nevermind distilled water is a key ingredient prior to additives being introduced. I suppose if one's distilled water source is really bad an issue might occur.

As soon as distilled water hits atmosphere, it's no longer going to remain neutral. It doesnt matter who knows what, that's an introduction to elements. Once it touches anything metal related, the water absorbs minerals. I believe the term is leaching.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

I do not think that all soldering chemical residues in rads are easy to clean with pure water. I encountered depositing some sticky stuff from a new rad in a plastic pump/res combo and then damaging the plastic reservoir when I used pure technical alcohol to clean it.

So some specialised chemicals to clean new radiators may be needed. Honestly radiator manufacturers should do it themselves.

I flush new rads with technical alcohol first, then with normal water and then with distilled water.

 

[A Computer Guy]

As soon as distilled water hits atmosphere, it's no longer going to remain neutral. It doesnt matter who knows what, that's an introduction to elements.

How long does it take for distilled water to become harmful (acidic enough) to the loop after hitting atmosphere?

 

[BoggledBeagle]

How long does it take for distilled water to become harmful (acidic enough) to the loop after hitting atmosphere?

Do you mean chemically pure REALLY DISTILLED very expensive water, or some standard deionised water you get cheap for technical purposes? I think the "technical water" is not reliable at all and should be used with additive in the loop. What do you have against a car antifreeze?

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Where in the OP video was aluminum used?
He stuck a nickel plated copper block into distilled water in a glass container.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Or what you think the point of this thread is. I'm not sure what you are arguing.

There is no all-copper loop. I guarantee it.

There is overwhelming evidence that anyone who has a distilled water loop realizes the consequences. There is plenty in this thread already. Even the people who are pro distilled water observe the results.

I have a 10-year old EK 1080 block -- the worst blocks EK made when it comes to this subject -- and guess what?

You can't argue with evidence.

Just to emphasize...

What video did you watch? What's the subject of this thread?

Let's talk about something. der8auer uses water in a beaker, inside an oven. Let me explain why water generally has to have a pH buffer to maintain its pH. He's then doing the science and claiming that this is a galvanic reaction. As a hint, a galvanic reaction is almost always two metals in an aqueous solution. One reduces, producing a metal and an oxide, along with energy. His claim is a galvanic reaction...and he has two similar metals together that theoretically are forming said galvanic reaction...COPPER AND NICKEL. This is not a galvanic reaction.
Water+CO2 = H2O+CO2 = H2CO3 -> H2CO3+metal = metal oxide + free hydrogen and carbon...oh look...a black formation on the surface of the metal...I WONDER IF IT IS CARBON?
That's an acid constantly forming in a huge area, with plenty of heat. He claims a galvanic reduction...which is BS. It's a constant bath of acid. The point is he's lying with chemistry most people would assume correct, because the BS being sold is both coming from someone who should know, and is respected for his knowledge on cooling. Unfortunately, he's an idiot when it comes to chemistry.

Let me now explain passivation. It's what happens to aluminum and copper over time, and what can't happen to steel. The oxide that forms creates some heat, but it's also forming different crystal structures. Aluminum oxide forms a crystal structure that doesn't dramatically increase in size, so it becomes a skin around the metallic aluminum. Because there's no additional infiltration of oxygen, the metallic aluminum at the core remains. This is the way to can take aluminum, passivate it with a slightly open structure, and then put dies into the surface to turn it colors...that don't just instantly rub off. In steel, or more accurately iron, the oxide structure basically flakes off. Because it flakes constantly, it will absolutely crumble to dust. The same thing would happen if you constantly scrubbed the oxide layer off aluminum.
SIDE NOTE: Why do you think that aluminum engines didn't fare well with high ethanol content fuel? It was because ethanol+water+heat dissolves aluminum oxides. That's right, aluminum actually was eaten away by high ethanol fuels. Now you know why going higher than E10 is not recommended for older vehicles...because it actually eats your aluminum components.


Regarding your anecdote....let me try and explain a dozen different things that you should consider.
1) You claimed to always use something...and now claim your old system had issues... So when did you lie?
2) Natural aspiration is fun. It exposes your system to a constant pH change. Carbonic acid is slow to form, but a decade and it will. This is why I prefer closed loops.
3) What's the color of the material. Copper oxide is red or yellow, with the improbable CuO being the only black form. Nickel oxide is green or black. So...what actually oxidized?
4) You seem to want to drink the bong water regarding der8auer. Fine. Your anecdote is cancelled by mine. That's why anecdote is BS...so pretending that it's fact is silly.

Let me explain to you that everyone seems to be going silly about how microbial build-up is an issue, and you could get degredation. Cool. Let me introduce you to high school chemistry. Add a pinch of baking soda, that's NaHCO3. It provides Na+ and HCO3- ions. Now, add table salt. Na+ and CL-. Add to your average water, that has H+ and OH- ions. The three of them balance out, creating a buffer that will resist pH changes to be more acidic. The salt does form an electrolyte...but at low concentrations it'll basically be no more dangerous than the carbonic acid that air will form. If you target a neutral pH, and resist the natural switch to acidify over time, you have all the magic that is claimed by your average water cooling fluid. You can also learn this from aquarium maintenance, but who really keeps a 150 gallon fish tank (hint, 10 years was long enough).




Final bit. What is antifreeze? It depends upon your brand, but ethylene glycol is the most common. Meth-Eth, so two Carbons. Glycol, so 2 Oxygen. C2O2H6...or C2H6O2 written properly. By jove, it's a weakly polar molecule. That's why it dissolves in water, and when it dissolves it can break those big old hydroxide groups at each end. IE you can go from weakly polar to surprisingly strongly polar.

Where I screw up is concentration. Common automotive blends being 35-60%. Wow...when you dramatically reduce the amount of water to react, it retards the reaction. Likewise, introducing a bunch of hydroxide ions to stabilize the natural pH of the water expressed as a balance of H+ and OH- ions leads to a stable pH. You're also introducing the ethylene...which is a biocide. Yes, your favorite ethyl alcohols are sterilizing agents. Once that all comes together you give up a bunch of heat capacity, but get a pH stabilizer and biocide...that because it isn't a salt is infinitely safer around electronics.
The thing is, automotive coolants are designed for large temperature deltas. IE, 90 degrees outside and a 200 degree engine. I say that as the fluid is measured at 200 degrees, because the engine is way hotter than that. Your average PC water cooler might be 80 degrees as ambient and 90 degrees fluid...your mileage may vary.

All of this is to say that the reason that water is used in heat pipes is the same as the reason it's preferred in water cooling. If you have a single, or at worst similar, metal construction it'll basically not have issues unless you introduce contamination into the system. You NEED chemicals if you decide to start combining metals, of if your active temperature is much higher. This is because not cavitating is more important than efficiency, which is minimized by adding a less conductive fluid (glycol) into your cooling mix. That's fine in automotive, because thousands of joules of energy are being transferred, whereas a PC cooler transfers hundreds. So...I choose an efficient medium, distilled water. I choose a double metal option, passivated nickel and copper. I choose a closed system, so that acids don't build up. If I see any clouding a slight pH adjustment can prevent any issues, but to do all of this I refuse to spend $20 a liter on special coolants...and der8aure claiming that his "demonstrated" galvanic reaction using an acid producing cell and not having two dissimilar metals is 100% weapons grade BS that should get him slapped like LMG got when they decided to BS data under the auspices that constantly making videos was more important than getting data right.



Of course, you can still make wild accusations. Accusations like there are no mono-metal options. Accusations like passivated metals can somehow be as reactive as metallic metal is silly, but you're welcome to explain how a more reactive pre-oxidized metal can somehow react with less reactive metal...and somehow magically create oxidation, is special. It's absolutely insane and would require a reversal of entropy...but I've seen people claim dumber things. I've also watched the OP video claiming that acid bath+metal is a galvanic series reduction reaction...which should produce different oxides than observed, but why even pretend that completely changing the way testing occurs might test something differently. IE, instead of running a hot plate connected to a block and a sealed system you decided to just fully immerse a block in water and get it near boiling in an environment with infinitely more surface air and a huge air bubble...but it's not like a completely non-indicative test was ever performed by someone with an axe to grind, and therefore they didn't even think to question the basic assumptions.


Let me be crystal clear in totality. der8auer is is full of crap. He started with the assumption that a galvanic reaction was causing fouling of his metals, because distilled water was allowing said reaction. To prove it he used good chemistry with a terribly stupid set of assumptions. The primary of which being immersion in a water bath and constant exposure to high heat of an open container of water is a similar test to a closed loop water flow...and instead of demonstrating that distilled water creates a galvanic reaction that fouls water cooler he demonstrated that a non-buffered water solution allowed to infinitely recycle the CO2 in a heated chamber would form sufficient carbonic acid to dissolve metals and create fouling. GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT. He did all of this optimistically to try and get people to not make claims on his water blocks, pessimistically to sell a new branded cooler solution, and realistically because he thinks that this will do some good. I lean to the pessimism, because he's already selling a boat load of branded crap and this sort of thing gets clicks...while good scientists who can identify the shenanigans in methodology and assumptions will be shouted down by people who believe the person who "fixed" Intel's issues and regularly delids CPUs wouldn't lie to them. Cult of personality crap that create people like Musk...but we keep making them.

In the midst of this I get told that anyone not using a cocktail of chemicals was an idiot and there's no such thing as a single metal system...because reasons. I also get people who casually ignore the actually pants on head crazy of an aluminum everything but CPU block, to argue that they are absolutely sure that they know best, and that compromising heat capacity by changing 50% of the water to a less efficient heat carrier when the delta in loop temperatures might only be a few degrees is reasonable...and I think that it's comical. The last bit of pants on head crazy is not knowing the difference between mechanical properties, chemical properties, grain structure influence, and the constant belief that all of these things are interlinked. It's kinda frustrating when you know for a fact that der8auer is good at what he does...but then you get click-bait trash videos that "prove" their thesis with terrifyingly stupid science. Do I laugh because I'm old enough to see all my heroes die, or do I thank god that there will be replacements when people like der8auer whore themselves out to advertisers and become the puppets they once rallied against?




Hey, one last bit of trivia friends. I want this to stick with you. An electon beam microscope is great to observe the surface of a part. A spectrometer bombards a surface with energy and records the return wavelengths, which absolutely can give you the composition of a surface by spectral signature. It's funny that when you should scrape a plated surface, and a surface "fouled by rust" you get almost identical results. How almost identical? Like, interchangeable. Like when you visible scrape the surfaces and the color is different, as demonstrated on the SEM, and the spectrometer records the exact same composition on both you've demonstrates that the fouling on the surface is chemically indistinguishable from the original material...almost like the acid and heat bath resulting in the black material couldn't have been a galvanic series reaction, because there was no more Oxygen, like you'd expect from a reduction reaction. It's almost like, gasp, the actual fouling on the surface was simply acids restructuring the surface and changing the visual structure. Please note that this is really easy to do. If you want to experiment yourself go grab some acid, a constant voltage source, and a brush. (Rainbow coloring titanium)

Note that simply by altering the outside structure (How to anodize titanium with household chemicals video on youtube). der8auer even states that the result is not a problematic reaction, then states the problem is the rest of the loop...as though his bizarro world testing isn't then pre-supposing the aluminum radiator block or some other silliness that he's decided not to demonstrate....because. Man, this it like watching an informercial on slap tape turned into a canoe and then taking said canoe out onto the water as "better than an aluminum boat." It definitely is, if you want to sell tape, but the real solution is to not cut a window into the bottom of your boat. Nah, you just "can't make a loop with only one metal or very similar ones that have negligible galvanic reaction (or none if they are already passivated). Of course, we should all listen and believe though. The cult of not using distiller water has to be right...because everyone should just run Vodka in their loops anyways, right?

That way you can do as the Soviets did. Accidentally lose coolants for their jets because it happened to be ethyl alcohol. At least I end on a good chuckle after this insanely long justification that most people would just simplify as "der8auer is full of crap."

 

[A Computer Guy]

I do not think that all soldering chemical residues in rads are easy to clean with pure water. I encountered depositing some sticky stuff from a new rad in a plastic pump/res combo and then damaging the plastic reservoir when I used pure technical alcohol to clean it.

So some specialised chemicals to clean new radiators may be needed. Honestly radiator manufacturers should do it themselves.

I flush new rads with technical alcohol first, then with normal water and then with distilled water.

I think your correct water isn't enough to necessarily dissolve and remove some leftover rad residues from manufacturing.

Do you mean chemically pure REALLY DISTILLED very expensive water, or some standard deionised water you get cheap for technical purpose?

I think it's pretty clear we are talking about off the shelf distilled water in the comments but some here might actually be using really distilled expensive water. And perhaps that's where there is a point of contention in the discussion. What is the difference between off the shelf distilled water and something more extravagant such as the REALLY DISTILLED water that you are referring to?

I think the "technical water" is not reliable at all and should be used with additive in the loop. What do you have agaings a car antifreeze?

Nothing in particular against however using distilled water also means no special disposal requirements and worry about environmental contamination.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

What is the difference between off the shelf distilled water and something more extravagant such as the REALLY DISTILLED water that you are referring to?

I imagine that the real distilled water is intended mainly for medical and pharmaceutical use or chemical analysis, with appropriate quality control beside the fact that is should be really pure.

The "technical deionised water" is most likely a lottery, you never know what are you really getting, including biological and other contaminations, which do not interfere with intended use of that water. For cooling fluid you are expected to mix it with additives, as car antifreeze.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Do you mean chemically pure REALLY DISTILLED very expensive water, or some standard deionised water you get cheap for technical purposes? I think the "technical water" is not reliable at all and should be used with additive in the loop. What do you have against a car antifreeze?

One word. Physics.

Pure water has a high specific heat capacity (approximately 4.20 J/g K), while ethylene glycol has a much lower specific heat capacity (around 2.42 J/g K).

Specifically, aluminum's specific heat is 0.90 J/g°C, while copper's is 0.385 J/g°C.


The metal you want to suck in quickly, and dump quickly. The fluid you want to be high because the goal is to absorb it at point A, transfer it to point B with minimal losses, then dump it at point B into the environment. When you look at those numbers, the glycol system will have to double in heat to carry the same thermal energy as the water. You are setting up a system with a fixed ambient temperature, so that will mean that your CPU needs to get way hotter to have the same transfer of energy into the fluid.

If you don't get it, the one word answer is "efficiency," but if I just said that it'd probably by misinterpreted. This is not a little efficiency, it's several degrees of difference. When water cooling, that matters.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Let's talk about something. der8auer uses water in a beaker, inside an oven. Let me explain why water generally has to have a pH buffer to maintain its pH. He's then doing the science and claiming that this is a galvanic reaction. As a hint, a galvanic reaction is almost always two metals in an aqueous solution. One reduces, producing a metal and an oxide, along with energy. His claim is a galvanic reaction...and he has two similar metals together that theoretically are forming said galvanic reaction...COPPER AND NICKEL. This is not a galvanic reaction.
Water+CO2 = H2O+CO2 = H2CO3 -> H2CO3+metal = metal oxide + free hydrogen and carbon...oh look...a black formation on the surface of the metal...I WONDER IF IT IS CARBON?
That's an acid constantly forming in a huge area, with plenty of heat. He claims a galvanic reduction...which is BS. It's a constant bath of acid. The point is he's lying with chemistry most people would assume correct, because the BS being sold is both coming from someone who should know, and is respected for his knowledge on cooling. Unfortunately, he's an idiot when it comes to chemistry.

Let me now explain passivation. It's what happens to aluminum and copper over time, and what can't happen to steel. The oxide that forms creates some heat, but it's also forming different crystal structures. Aluminum oxide forms a crystal structure that doesn't dramatically increase in size, so it becomes a skin around the metallic aluminum. Because there's no additional infiltration of oxygen, the metallic aluminum at the core remains. This is the way to can take aluminum, passivate it with a slightly open structure, and then put dies into the surface to turn it colors...that don't just instantly rub off. In steel, or more accurately iron, the oxide structure basically flakes off. Because it flakes constantly, it will absolutely crumble to dust. The same thing would happen if you constantly scrubbed the oxide layer off aluminum.
SIDE NOTE: Why do you think that aluminum engines didn't fare well with high ethanol content fuel? It was because ethanol+water+heat dissolves aluminum oxides. That's right, aluminum actually was eaten away by high ethanol fuels. Now you know why going higher than E10 is not recommended for older vehicles...because it actually eats your aluminum components.


Regarding your anecdote....let me try and explain a dozen different things that you should consider.
1) You claimed to always use something...and now claim your old system had issues... So when did you lie?
2) Natural aspiration is fun. It exposes your system to a constant pH change. Carbonic acid is slow to form, but a decade and it will. This is why I prefer closed loops.
3) What's the color of the material. Copper oxide is red or yellow, with the improbable CuO being the only black form. Nickel oxide is green or black. So...what actually oxidized?
4) You seem to want to drink the bong water regarding der8auer. Fine. Your anecdote is cancelled by mine. That's why anecdote is BS...so pretending that it's fact is silly.

Let me explain to you that everyone seems to be going silly about how microbial build-up is an issue, and you could get degredation. Cool. Let me introduce you to high school chemistry. Add a pinch of baking soda, that's NaHCO3. It provides Na+ and HCO3- ions. Now, add table salt. Na+ and CL-. Add to your average water, that has H+ and OH- ions. The three of them balance out, creating a buffer that will resist pH changes to be more acidic. The salt does form an electrolyte...but at low concentrations it'll basically be no more dangerous than the carbonic acid that air will form. If you target a neutral pH, and resist the natural switch to acidify over time, you have all the magic that is claimed by your average water cooling fluid. You can also learn this from aquarium maintenance, but who really keeps a 150 gallon fish tank (hint, 10 years was long enough).




Final bit. What is antifreeze? It depends upon your brand, but ethylene glycol is the most common. Meth-Eth, so two Carbons. Glycol, so 2 Oxygen. C2O2H6...or C2H6O2 written properly. By jove, it's a weakly polar molecule. That's why it dissolves in water, and when it dissolves it can break those big old hydroxide groups at each end. IE you can go from weakly polar to surprisingly strongly polar.

Where I screw up is concentration. Common automotive blends being 35-60%. Wow...when you dramatically reduce the amount of water to react, it retards the reaction. Likewise, introducing a bunch of hydroxide ions to stabilize the natural pH of the water expressed as a balance of H+ and OH- ions leads to a stable pH. You're also introducing the ethylene...which is a biocide. Yes, your favorite ethyl alcohols are sterilizing agents. Once that all comes together you give up a bunch of heat capacity, but get a pH stabilizer and biocide...that because it isn't a salt is infinitely safer around electronics.
The thing is, automotive coolants are designed for large temperature deltas. IE, 90 degrees outside and a 200 degree engine. I say that as the fluid is measured at 200 degrees, because the engine is way hotter than that. Your average PC water cooler might be 80 degrees as ambient and 90 degrees fluid...your mileage may vary.

All of this is to say that the reason that water is used in heat pipes is the same as the reason it's preferred in water cooling. If you have a single, or at worst similar, metal construction it'll basically not have issues unless you introduce contamination into the system. You NEED chemicals if you decide to start combining metals, of if your active temperature is much higher. This is because not cavitating is more important than efficiency, which is minimized by adding a less conductive fluid (glycol) into your cooling mix. That's fine in automotive, because thousands of joules of energy are being transferred, whereas a PC cooler transfers hundreds. So...I choose an efficient medium, distilled water. I choose a double metal option, passivated nickel and copper. I choose a closed system, so that acids don't build up. If I see any clouding a slight pH adjustment can prevent any issues, but to do all of this I refuse to spend $20 a liter on special coolants...and der8aure claiming that his "demonstrated" galvanic reaction using an acid producing cell and not having two dissimilar metals is 100% weapons grade BS that should get him slapped like LMG got when they decided to BS data under the auspices that constantly making videos was more important than getting data right.



Of course, you can still make wild accusations. Accusations like there are no mono-metal options. Accusations like passivated metals can somehow be as reactive as metallic metal is silly, but you're welcome to explain how a more reactive pre-oxidized metal can somehow react with less reactive metal...and somehow magically create oxidation, is special. It's absolutely insane and would require a reversal of entropy...but I've seen people claim dumber things. I've also watched the OP video claiming that acid bath+metal is a galvanic series reduction reaction...which should produce different oxides than observed, but why even pretend that completely changing the way testing occurs might test something differently. IE, instead of running a hot plate connected to a block and a sealed system you decided to just fully immerse a block in water and get it near boiling in an environment with infinitely more surface air and a huge air bubble...but it's not like a completely non-indicative test was ever performed by someone with an axe to grind, and therefore they didn't even think to question the basic assumptions.


Let me be crystal clear in totality. der8auer is is full of crap. He started with the assumption that a galvanic reaction was causing fouling of his metals, because distilled water was allowing said reaction. To prove it he used good chemistry with a terribly stupid set of assumptions. The primary of which being immersion in a water bath and constant exposure to high heat of an open container of water is a similar test to a closed loop water flow...and instead of demonstrating that distilled water creates a galvanic reaction that fouls water cooler he demonstrated that a non-buffered water solution allowed to infinitely recycle the CO2 in a heated chamber would form sufficient carbonic acid to dissolve metals and create fouling. GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT. He did all of this optimistically to try and get people to not make claims on his water blocks, pessimistically to sell a new branded cooler solution, and realistically because he thinks that this will do some good. I lean to the pessimism, because he's already selling a boat load of branded crap and this sort of thing gets clicks...while good scientists who can identify the shenanigans in methodology and assumptions will be shouted down by people who believe the person who "fixed" Intel's issues and regularly delids CPUs wouldn't lie to them. Cult of personality crap that create people like Musk...but we keep making them.

In the midst of this I get told that anyone not using a cocktail of chemicals was an idiot and there's no such thing as a single metal system...because reasons. I also get people who casually ignore the actually pants on head crazy of an aluminum everything but CPU block, to argue that they are absolutely sure that they know best, and that compromising heat capacity by changing 50% of the water to a less efficient heat carrier when the delta in loop temperatures might only be a few degrees is reasonable...and I think that it's comical. The last bit of pants on head crazy is not knowing the difference between mechanical properties, chemical properties, grain structure influence, and the constant belief that all of these things are interlinked. It's kinda frustrating when you know for a fact that der8auer is good at what he does...but then you get click-bait trash videos that "prove" their thesis with terrifyingly stupid science. Do I laugh because I'm old enough to see all my heroes die, or do I thank god that there will be replacements when people like der8auer whore themselves out to advertisers and become the puppets they once rallied against?




Hey, one last bit of trivia friends. I want this to stick with you. An electon beam microscope is great to observe the surface of a part. A spectrometer bombards a surface with energy and records the return wavelengths, which absolutely can give you the composition of a surface by spectral signature. It's funny that when you should scrape a plated surface, and a surface "fouled by rust" you get almost identical results. How almost identical? Like, interchangeable. Like when you visible scrape the surfaces and the color is different, as demonstrated on the SEM, and the spectrometer records the exact same composition on both you've demonstrates that the fouling on the surface is chemically indistinguishable from the original material...almost like the acid and heat bath resulting in the black material couldn't have been a galvanic series reaction, because there was no more Oxygen, like you'd expect from a reduction reaction. It's almost like, gasp, the actual fouling on the surface was simply acids restructuring the surface and changing the visual structure. Please note that this is really easy to do. If you want to experiment yourself go grab some acid, a constant voltage source, and a brush. (Rainbow coloring titanium)

Note that simply by altering the outside structure (How to anodize titanium with household chemicals video on youtube). der8auer even states that the result is not a problematic reaction, then states the problem is the rest of the loop...as though his bizarro world testing isn't then pre-supposing the aluminum radiator block or some other silliness that he's decided not to demonstrate....because. Man, this it like watching an informercial on slap tape turned into a canoe and then taking said canoe out onto the water as "better than an aluminum boat." It definitely is, if you want to sell tape, but the real solution is to not cut a window into the bottom of your boat. Nah, you just "can't make a loop with only one metal or very similar ones that have negligible galvanic reaction (or none if they are already passivated). Of course, we should all listen and believe though. The cult of not using distiller water has to be right...because everyone should just run Vodka in their loops anyways, right?

That way you can do as the Soviets did. Accidentally lose coolants for their jets because it happened to be ethyl alcohol. At least I end on a good chuckle after this insanely long justification that most people would just simplify as "der8auer is full of crap."

This is a lot to absorb (and will take awhile to read) but I'm looking to take away from the discussion as a whole an understanding of requirements and ramifications to run a successful distilled water loop.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

How long does it take for distilled water to become harmful (acidic enough) to the loop after hitting atmosphere?

Now, THAT depends on variables.
Start with how contaminated is the air?
What metals, plastics and rubbers are introduced.
Does metal patina count as corrosion?
Is the system constantly filtered to keep the water neutral?

So forth.

I used tap to drain cooling and my old waterblock plate was made from plate steel. I have cleaned the block and replaced this with copper.
(I still use tap water)

 

[Jacky_BEL]

Let me now explain passivation. It's what happens to aluminum and copper over time, and what can't happen to steel. The oxide that forms creates some heat, but it's also forming different crystal structures. Aluminum oxide forms a crystal structure that doesn't dramatically increase in size, so it becomes a skin around the metallic aluminum. Because there's no additional infiltration of oxygen, the metallic aluminum at the core remains. This is the way to can take aluminum, passivate it with a slightly open structure, and then put dies into the surface to turn it colors...that don't just instantly rub off. In steel, or more accurately iron, the oxide structure basically flakes off. Because it flakes constantly, it will absolutely crumble to dust. The same thing would happen if you constantly scrubbed the oxide layer off aluminum.
SIDE NOTE: Why do you think that aluminum engines didn't fare well with high ethanol content fuel? It was because ethanol+water+heat dissolves aluminum oxides. That's right, aluminum actually was eaten away by high ethanol fuels. Now you know why going higher than E10 is not recommended for older vehicles...because it actually eats your aluminum components.

Regarding Steel passivation,
Like you said, the most known form of steel/iron oxidation comes in the form of rust, which easily flakes of.
In the steam generator at my workplace, the steel pipes and drum gets passivated by initially adding NaOH to the feed water, which react with the steel to form a black protective layer of magnetite.
(This happens in a high temperature/pressure environment of course.)

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

This is a lot to absorb (and will take awhile to read) but I'm looking to take away from the discussion as a whole an understanding of requirements and ramifications to run a successful distilled water loop.

Simple.

1) Sealed, and not exposed to air.
2) Same of very similar metal construction. Either all aluminum, all copper, or copper+passivated nickel.
3) Lots of plastic. This sounds silly, but the more you get away with the less you have to worry about. Fittings screwed into a polymer base linked to a clear plastic reservoir may be considered cheap to some, but to me it's minimized maintenance.
4) Minimal screwing around. Prepare, fill, bleed, seal, and visual check. Literal pinch of baking soda if you see things get colored.
5) Set it and forget it. Plastic will yellow, the fluid may run cloudy for a little while. That said, the more you mess with it the more contaminated it becomes.

Like I said, 10 years of regular use with 3 changes. It's still clear. I don't stress over this crap, and if you do you will wind up going nuts. Oxidation happens in the plastics. Seals are not 100% impermeable to water. What can change is you not losing your mind. Also, avoid outside nickel plating. Finger prints oxidize faster than you could imagine, and that's the biggest problem I've had with my loop.

If you absolutely must make changes, save insane amounts of money by buying at your local petshop rather than computer super store: Petco pH booster/stabilizer for aquariums That said, you should also be wary but open to information. I like der8auer for what he did with the surface finish of heat sinks...and that should be remembered. You should never allow this to cloud judgement, because it's easy to see scientific tools and chemical equations and be misled...hopefully by well intentioned but incorrect conclusions. I just assume that there may be something lost here in translation...because at about the 3 minute mark he explains the testing and that should have been where a materials person should have sat him down and asked if this was really the right response.

 

[ty_ger]

Wow that's a lot of typing about nothing on topic.

There is zero way you can argue that distilled water works as well as proper coolant with anti-corrosive additives. Especially when people think they are solving distilled water's shortcomings by using vinegar, bleach, silver, or other harmful means.

Peace out guys!

You're not being accused of lying, just of a failure to understand the root causes of corrosion. Calm down drama queen.

Everyone apparently has failed to understand any of the root causes. Why don't you tell us. You know so much. And then also tell us why proper coolant with corrosion inhibitors work better than distilled water. And then tell us why we needed to have a 3-page discussion to reach the end result that we are all on the same page after all.

Is this pedantic? What's your goal? Nothing better to do but agree in the most disagreeable way?

 

[Ruru]

Funny how after 10 years with proper coolant, I have all my plating on my EK 1080 block.

I'm maybe the third owner of my 3080 + its FC block and it had pretty much the plating gone when I opened it, it was never opened before (its seal was still untouched). Though as long as it doesn't affect performance, I don't care. Just looks ugly, but when it has the typical EK black acetal cover, I don't care about that.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Simple.

2) Same of very similar metal construction. Either all aluminum, all copper, or copper+passivated nickel.

So here is something that irks me at possibly running my loop with distilled. I thought I read somewhere EK uses stainless steel for at least some of their jet plates (and mounting plates for larger blocks). The presence of mixing stainless steel would basically disqualify being able to run the loop with only distilled correct?

Secondly how would one know if their nickel is passivated?

 

[phill]

I was interested with this thread as I've been doing water cooling for maybe 20 + years and I started out on Fesser One liquid, I found it stained the tubes and was a bit of a pain around the blocks but at the time, I was only using CPU blocks.

Since changing that and trying to go with coloured tubing which is a absolute pain to find over in the UK for some reason (unless I'm looking in the wrong places...) but I've been using just bog standard cheap distilled water for years and this stuff costs me like £1.50 for 2.5 litres and I've never had any issues with it.

I even remember having a leak with one of my loops and remember it coming out the CPU block, running over my Asus Rampage Extreme, over my GTX 580 and then down the board and whilst it was still running as it never cut out or stopped, I turned it off, cleaned it up and dried it off, plugged it all back together and boom, was back working without a hint of a leak or any issue whatsoever... Its like it never happened.. I'd have loved to have seen the Fesser One liquid do the same thing...

Maybe it only causes problems if you mix metals or something? Seems a little bit strange consider how long most of my loops have been run and never rinsed through or anything... Can't see any problems with them still... I guess everyone's mileage varies