AMD UDNA Graphics Architecture to Power Next-Gen Xbox and PlayStation

[btarunr]

AMD's next generation UDNA graphics architecture, which succeeds the current RDNA 4, will power the GPU of next generation Xbox and PlayStation consoles, VideoCardz reports. This would put the consoles a generation ahead of the Radeon RX 9000-series, and ready to take on some astoundingly complex AAA titles such as GTA 6. Kepler_L2, a reliable source with hardware leaks, has a some generational performance gain projections for UDNA over RDNA 4.

UDNA is expected to provide a 20% gain in raster performance per CU over RDNA 4, assuming other factors are comparable, such as memory and host platform. UDNA is also expected to offer a 2x ray tracing performance gain over RDNA 4. Kepler_L2 clarified that by this he means a halving in the frame-time incurred in having ray tracing enabled, compared to RDNA 4. What's emerging from these leaks is that the semi-custom SoCs powering next-generation consoles will be contemporary in terms of the architecture of its various IP blocks from AMD. Given that UDNA powers the GPU, the CPU could be equally advanced, based on at least "Zen 5" or "Zen 6," a significant upgrade over the "Zen 2" powering current consoles. There could be other inclusions, such as an NPU.



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[cucol]

whats the point on a NPU having a 80+cu gpu with Ai cores? a waste of silicon.

 

[Mysteoa]

whats the point on a NPU having a 80+cu gpu with Ai cores? a waste of silicon.

It is what MS wants, they may have some Ideas for it. AMD doesn't just put whatever they want for the XBOX silicon. All of it was requested by MS.

 

[Rightness_1]

nGreedia should be worried about AMD's RT perf gains. nGreedia's RT perf improvements have been glacial, and RT is still not viable on the lower end cards.

 

[Daven]

It seems SoC designs are the future for the vast majority of gaming capable devices:

Smartphone/tablet - ARM licensee SoCs
Handheld - AMD SoCs on most, Nvidia in the Switch
Console - all AMD SoCs in the Xbox and PS
Laptops/desktops - mostly Intel SoCs with a good number of AMD and Apple SoCs and very few non Apple ARM licensee SoCs. Discrete GPUs make up a small percentage in this space only.

Lots of good options and numerous competitors across all of these devices is good for us customers. As a side note, I know that TPU specializes in discrete GPU reviews and information but this tech represents a tiny fraction of what customers use to game. It might be time to consider a massive expansion into SoC reviews.

 

[Super XP]

nGreedia should be worried about AMD's RT perf gains. nGreedia's RT perf improvements have been glacial, and RT is still not viable on the lower end cards.

I heard from the great vine that the next Hardware Console XBOX is going to have a direct connection to Valve's STEAM on top of physical media. Basically a Console/PC at tyour fingertips.
* Nvidia is going to go through a mind decline, where AMD will be gaining significant market share & Intel to follow. I can see a split up 50% Nvidia, 41% AMD & 9% Intel.

 

[Daven]

I heard from the great vine that the next Hardware Console XBOX is going to have a direct connection to Valve's STEAM on top of physical media. Basically a Console/PC at tyour fingertips.
* Nvidia is going to go through a mind decline, where AMD will be gaining significant market share & Intel to follow. I can see a split up 50% Nvidia, 41% AMD & 9% Intel.

Since I’m interested in the match up of complete devices with their respective components, which types of devices (i.e. consoles, laptops, handhelds, desktops, etc.) are you including in your percentages?

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

I heard from the great vine that the next Hardware Console XBOX is going to have a direct connection to Valve's STEAM on top of physical media. Basically a Console/PC at tyour fingertips.
* Nvidia is going to go through a mind decline, where AMD will be gaining significant market share & Intel to follow. I can see a split up 50% Nvidia, 41% AMD & 9% Intel.

Whatever you're on, I want some of it.

I'll believe nVidia is on the decline when AMD can consistently hold, say, 15% of the market.

It seems SoC designs are the future for the vast majority of gaming capable devices:

Smartphone/tablet - ARM licensee SoCs
Handheld - AMD SoCs on most, Nvidia in the Switch
Console - all AMD SoCs in the Xbox and PS
Laptops/desktops - mostly Intel SoCs with a good number of AMD and Apple SoCs and very few non Apple ARM licensee SoCs. Discrete GPUs make up a small percentage in this space only.

Lots of good options and numerous competitors across all of these devices is good for us customers. As a side note, I know that TPU specializes in discrete GPU reviews and information but this tech represents a tiny fraction of what customers use to game. It might be time to consider a massive expansion into SoC reviews.

The VAST majority of gamers use add in cards, according to Steam.

It's not a "tiny fraction", at the very least.

 

[Daven]

Whatever you're on, I want some of it.

I'll believe nVidia is on the decline when AMD can consistently hold, say, 15% of the market.


The VAST majority of gamers use add in cards, according to Steam.

It's not a "tiny fraction", at the very least.

Your definition of a gamer is a PC gamer. Mine is anyone who plays games digitally. Also the Steam survey is a combination of discrete and integrated GPUs including SoCs from Apple. There is also a possibility that integrated users are under represented as they would likely not care about what’s under the hood and decline to participate in a hardware survey.

Edit: oh and I forgot to add that the Steam hardware survey is hardware purchased over time. Some of the users might not have purchased a new GPU in years and may in fact never buy a GPU again if they even know what a GPU is. Finally a good portion of the survey data might not actually be personal rigs. Some could be internet cafe computers and other such sources especially when you see a surge in Chinese language percents. That would mean up to a thousand Steam users could be using the same computer. I don’t know how good the Steam survey can filter out different users but one PC in firewalled and VPNed countries and businesses.

 

[TechLurker]

Now I'm curious if the consoles are being used to test out UDNA before the GPUs themselves go live, or UDNA is already mature enough that AMD could afford to "early release" it as SoCs for the new consoles.

 

[dyonoctis]

Whatever you're on, I want some of it.

I'll believe nVidia is on the decline when AMD can consistently hold, say, 15% of the market.


The VAST majority of gamers use add in cards, according to Steam.

It's not a "tiny fraction", at the very least.

Microsoft did hinted at something like that when they presented their handheld console and the future of Xbox :"not limited to the xbox store"

Xbox Formed a Strategic, Multi-Year Partnership With AMD and Is Teasing a Multi-Store Approach

Microsoft has announced a multi-year, strategic partnership with AMD to jointly develop silicon for a range of devices, including next-generation Xbox consoles, handheld and home devices. The Xbox experience will not be limited to a single store or device.

www.gamesmarket.global

 

[Vayra86]

It is what MS wants, they may have some Ideas for it. AMD doesn't just put whatever they want for the XBOX silicon. All of it was requested by MS.

Copilot in-game-overlay

I can't wait for this to crash and burn spectacularly. Because it will

Whatever you're on, I want some of it.

I'll believe nVidia is on the decline when AMD can consistently hold, say, 15% of the market.


The VAST majority of gamers use add in cards, according to Steam.

It's not a "tiny fraction", at the very least.

Steam in gaming covers what, 20% of the market now in revenue? I reckon its even far less than that.

 

[Tek-Check]

There's already a debate whether at least one console SKU would, for the first time, feature chiplet design, something similar to Strix Halo, but with one 12-core CCD and IOD/iGPU. That would be a significant step forward, as AMD managed to develop new type of IF on Strix Halo. This is Infinity Fanout Link and has low latency and low idle power states. It works really well on Strix Halo package.

 

[Bruno_O]

Now I'm curious if the consoles are being used to test out UDNA before the GPUs themselves go live, or UDNA is already mature enough that AMD could afford to "early release" it as SoCs for the new consoles.

early engineering samples most likely

Zen6 + UDNA will be my next build then, to mimic what new consoles will have

 

[yfn_ratchet]

whats the point on a NPU having a 80+cu gpu with Ai cores? a waste of silicon.

NPUs are optimized for neural workloads, and that typically means optimizing efficiency over sheer performance. These little things can't do much, but they can do it while sipping power, which makes it very important for AI 'enhancements' on mobile platforms. I imagine the extra compute might also be nice for local AI hobbyists.

It seems SoC designs are the future for the vast majority of gaming capable devices:

Smartphone/tablet - ARM licensee SoCs
Handheld - AMD SoCs on most, Nvidia in the Switch
Console - all AMD SoCs in the Xbox and PS
Laptops/desktops - mostly Intel SoCs with a good number of AMD and Apple SoCs and very few non Apple ARM licensee SoCs. Discrete GPUs make up a small percentage in this space only.

Lots of good options and numerous competitors across all of these devices is good for us customers. As a side note, I know that TPU specializes in discrete GPU reviews and information but this tech represents a tiny fraction of what customers use to game. It might be time to consider a massive expansion into SoC reviews.

I think you're missing the reason why SoCs are used in these sorts of use cases:

Phone/Tablet/Handheld gaming - Optimize power efficiency/thermals, limited by battery resources/form factor.
Console - Fixed configuration for standardized performance, unify silicon/memory for performance boost.
Desktop/laptop - I don't even see what you're talking about here, counting iGPUs when they are hardly optional doesn't prove much. Only F-series chips from Intel/AMD completely lack an iGPU; don't assume because someone has it means they use it, and certainly not for gaming.

The only credit I will give you towards this end is the use of the G-series Ryzen desktop chips and some mobile chips like the Ryzen 7940/8840/370 family. Those are viable for gaming, but only barely, and they're incredibly lopsided towards that end given the core configs.​

These aren't the 'future' any more than they are the present. SoCs, by their nature, cannot overtake the market segment dGPU-equipped systems dwell in, because they are catered towards different use cases, and often being able to separate CPU and GPU makes both significantly more efficient in terms of economies of scale. Flaws in a wafer that might take out a whole uber-expensive SoC die might only take out a few far smaller, far less costly per-unit CCXs or x07 dies.

Even if some big head honcho in the space offered me an SoC that would double my 3060's performance (no iGPU has even matched it thus far), offer better CPU performance, and would cost less than it would to buy a comparable DIY system with separate CPU/GPU, I would still hesitate to take that deal, because if my needs ever change I would then need to throw out the entire system towards that end, and it would probably end up being more expensive over time than iterative per-part upgrades. It's wasteful.

 

[trsttte]

whats the point on a NPU having a 80+cu gpu with Ai cores? a waste of silicon.

GPU are a brute force instruments, they can do so called AI tasks but very inefficiently, an NPU on the other hand is the opposite, it's optimized for the type of things "AI" workloads require. Having them is smart if they have a use for them in mind, unlike current laptops where the NPU is just dark silicon no application is designed to use thus far.

Microsoft did hinted at something like that when they presented their handheld console and the future of Xbox :"not limited to the xbox store"

Xbox Formed a Strategic, Multi-Year Partnership With AMD and Is Teasing a Multi-Store Approach

Microsoft has announced a multi-year, strategic partnership with AMD to jointly develop silicon for a range of devices, including next-generation Xbox consoles, handheld and home devices. The Xbox experience will not be limited to a single store or device.

www.gamesmarket.global

It would be glorious but I'll believe it when I see it, Microsoft would like for everyone to just subscribe to game pass, it they can use their existing library on Xbox that won't happen.

 

[Daven]

Even if some big head honcho in the space offered me an SoC that would double my 3060's performance (no iGPU has even matched it thus far), offer better CPU performance, and would cost less than it would to buy a comparable DIY system with separate CPU/GPU, I would still hesitate to take that deal, because if my needs ever change I would then need to throw out the entire system towards that end, and it would probably end up being more expensive over time than iterative per-part upgrades. It's wasteful.

Xbox, PS, Apple M series and AMD AI Max SoCs all have or will have GPUs faster than your 3060 by way more than double. I’m very interested in this tech as are others.

 

[Tek-Check]

Well, Dutch consumers are suing Sony and PlayStation over monopolistic practices in their digital games store. So, Microsoft has a chance to get it right with next gen consoles, by carefully following this case.

EU authorities will also closely watch this space and they may push for digital ownership of games by each user, rather than merely licencing a game.

PlayStation Has Been Sued in Class Action Lawsuit in the Netherlands Over High Prices of Digital Content

PlayStation has been sued in the Netherlands in a class action lawsuit over the high prices of digital games and in-game content.

wccftech.com

 

[trsttte]

Well, Dutch consumers are suing Sony and PlayStation over monopolistic practices in their digital games store.

Not the first time, doubt it will go anywhere. It has been debated before, they justify it with the business model of consoles and while Xbox, Nintendo and PC are still kicking they can easily argue there's other avenues - even more so now that they release most of their exclusives on PC after ~2 years.

EU authorities will also closely watch this space and they may push for digital ownership of games by each user, rather than merely licencing a game.

That would be great but I don't think they really have an eye on that, I feel a major scandal needs to happen before the issue is taken seriously unfortunately (i.e. like when Sony tried to take purchased Discovery content away). Things are changing but too slow and not really relevant (a warning label doesn't change anything)

New California law inspired by Ubisoft and Sony requires retailers to warn consumers that the digital games they buy can be taken away at any time

It won't stop your games from being taken away, but at least you won't be able to say you weren't warned.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[TechLurker]

Well, Dutch consumers are suing Sony and PlayStation over monopolistic practices in their digital games store. So, Microsoft has a chance to get it right with next gen consoles, by carefully following this case.

EU authorities will also closely watch this space and they may push for digital ownership of games by each user, rather than merely licencing a game.

PlayStation Has Been Sued in Class Action Lawsuit in the Netherlands Over High Prices of Digital Content

PlayStation has been sued in the Netherlands in a class action lawsuit over the high prices of digital games and in-game content.

wccftech.com

Unless the EU also goes after Nintendo for the same thing, I doubt anything will happen, as Sony can straight-up point to Nintendo's own recent greed and closed ecosystem as a counterpoint and the fact that the EU isn't also targeting them for monopolistic practices.

 

[Red Hood]

Unless the EU also goes after Nintendo for the same thing, I doubt anything will happen, as Sony can straight-up point to Nintendo's own recent greed and closed ecosystem as a counterpoint and the fact that the EU isn't also targeting them for monopolistic practices.

It's nintendo that does the suing

 

[chrcoluk]

Consoles still have the problem of hardware lock in (aside from storage) and closed OS, so a massive loss with lack of modding. Xbox sales might go up a bit when people get the larger steam library on it, but its not going to kill Nvidia on PC.

 

[yfn_ratchet]

Xbox, PS, Apple M series and AMD AI Max SoCs all have or will have GPUs faster than your 3060 by way more than double. I’m very interested in this tech as are others.

I suppose I should have clarified: SoCs that are within my use case. The Xbox Series X, Playstation 5 (Pro), and Apple M2 Ultra (or higher) all have equivalent or better GPUs to a desktop 3060 in sheer performance, but those also come at the cost of being on fixed configurations with little to no upgrade/expansion path, and with an operating system/software suite that serves no use to me.

Nevermind that consoles have negative margin; if they were priced to produce profit for the company, you'd be looking at 'Maxed out Mac Mini' prices, which is... wow, more than my entire system costs, and still compromised in terms of system memory/storage size (and when it comes to the PS5/XBSX, CPU perf as well).

We're still waiting on a halo-tier Ryzen APU (that isn't a console) that matches the 3060 12GB (Radeon 8060S). That APU/mainboard will likely also cost more than my entire system, and still be compromised in some fashion. It just doesn't make sense in this segment. I also find the tech interesting, but to act as if it will replace dGPU setups at any price tier when the option is available at all is lunacy.