MSI Titan 18 Dragon Edition (Norse Myth) Intel 285HX Optimisation

[shishya]

Hi all,

The following is the best undervolt I have been able to achieve on this machine.

I constantly get "EDP Other" Limits and HWinfo shows my E Cores are Thermal Throttling 100% of the time.

The machine still thermal throttles despite the undervolt and I'm curious if there's anything else I can explore apart from lowering the Core clocks. Also is it worth it playing around with E Cores in Turbo Ratios? Why isn't the undervolt optoin available for them?

Attached are: Main window, FIVR, TPL, HWinfo, Spreadsheet of Trial runs.

 

[Dorek]

External laptop cooling pad id imagine.

 

[shishya]

External laptop cooling pad id imagine.

Hi Dorek, but that doesn't explain why the E-Cores are thermal throttling 100% of the time. Faulty sensor?

 

[Dorek]

Hi Dorek, but that doesn't explain why the E-Cores are thermal throttling 100% of the time. Faulty sensor?

Maybe they have less heat tolerance.

 

[unclewebb]

@shishya

I do not own or have access to any Core Ultra desktop or mobile processors for testing purposes. There might be some features in ThrottleStop that do not work as intended when running on a Core Ultra processor.

HWinfo shows my E Cores are Thermal Throttling 100% of the time.

That could be a bug. Use ThrottleStop to scroll through the list of cores when testing. It does not appear that the E cores are constantly thermal throttling. Check the ThrottleStop Log File box and run a log file while testing or playing a game. When finished, exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. Attach a log file so I can have a look.

I constantly get "EDP Other" Limits

MSI likes to program an EC to limit the maximum current. This can cause EDP throttling. ThrottleStop does not have access to the EC current or power limits so you cannot use ThrottleStop to fix either type of throttling. Try setting IccMax to the max for the CPU Core, Intel GPU and CPU P Cache.

Why isn't the undervolt option available for them?

I cannot add new features to ThrottleStop without access to hardware or any documentation. Intel prefers to hide the important stuff from individual programmers. Try using Intel XTU.

Edit - Try setting V/F Point 1 to 100. That can help with light load stability when undervolting. You can also try setting all of the Turbo Groups to 52 or less to control the heat. The Core Ultra series are supposed to be more efficient compared to the 14th Gen HX processors but your screenshot shows that it is still reaching over 190W of power consumption. Most laptop cooling systems will be overwhelmed at that level. Your choices are thermal throttling, power limit throttling, reducing the CPU speed or some sort of combination of all of the above.

 

[shishya]

@shishya

I do not own or have access to any Core Ultra desktop or mobile processors for testing purposes. There might be some features in ThrottleStop that do not work as intended when running on a Core Ultra processor.

Any way I can help with that remotely? I don't mind providing access or contributing to code if it helps the development of Throttlestop.

That could be a bug. Use ThrottleStop to scroll through the list of cores when testing. It does not appear that the E cores are constantly thermal throttling. Check the ThrottleStop Log File box and run a log file while testing or playing a game. When finished, exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. Attach a log file so I can have a look.

It indeed was! A simple restart fixed it.

MSI likes to program an EC to limit the maximum current. This can cause EDP throttling. ThrottleStop does not have access to the EC current or power limits so you cannot use ThrottleStop to fix either type of throttling. Try setting IccMax to the max for the CPU Core, Intel GPU and CPU P Cache.


I cannot add new features to ThrottleStop without access to hardware or any documentation. Intel prefers to hide the important stuff from individual programmers. Try using Intel XTU.

So I took your advice and tried the same stuff in Intel XTU. It really sucks at applying profiles (they show as applied but actually aren't, I need to verify on each boot).

Here are the results:

Performance Cores -

P-Core #	Voltage Offset
P-Core 0	-0.070 V
P-Core 1	-0.070 V
P-Core 2	-0.070 V
P-Core 3	-0.070 V
P-Core 4	-0.070 V
P-Core 5	-0.050 V
P-Core 6	-0.050 V
P-Core 7	-0.050 V

Efficient Cores -

E-Core #	Voltage Offset
E-Core [0-3]	-0.055 V
E-Core [4-7]	-0.055 V
E-Core [8-11]	-0.070 V
E-Core [12-15]	-0.070 V

Processor -
IccMax: Unlimited
PL1: Unlimited
PL2: Unlimited

Cache -
Voltage Offset: -0.050 V

Integrated GPU -
Voltage Offset: -0.150 V

Notes:
1/ Each individual change was accompanied by OCCT Power & CPU test + Cinebench R24 Single & Multi benchmark + leaving system idle for a few mins.
2/ Actual stable voltages are an extra -0.010 V in each category, but I couldn't figure out how to do the V/F offset thing in XTU, I also don't know how TVB setting works and how to measure its impact so I left it at disabled. Might try to play with it and load line calibration in BIOS when I'm satisfied with XTU.
3/ Post undervolting, the machine can turbo indefinitely (no temp or power throttling) at 5.0 GHz; at 5.2GHz if I use a cooling pad or 5.3GHz if I invert the laptop upside down. Tests were done at 24°C room temp.
4/ I know for sure the machine can be tuned further. But this is the first set of voltages that were stable for 48hrs no matter what I threw at it. Everyday ues, idle use, or extracting performance out of it outside of benchmarks such as gaming or training custom AI models. Will undervolt the Nvidia GPU later.

Important:
Despite Throttlestop not having access to E Core undervolting, the diff in benchmark (Intel XTU vs Throttlestop) from stock performance is 1%? I personally can live with that difference. It seems to me that the undervolt in first two cores matter more than the undervolt in rest of the 6 cores. Even on all-core benchmarks and testing.
However Undervolting ftw as all benchmarks are up by 5.5 - 12%

Edit - Try setting V/F Point 1 to 100. That can help with light load stability when undervolting. You can also try setting all of the Turbo Groups to 52 or less to control the heat. The Core Ultra series are supposed to be more efficient compared to the 14th Gen HX processors but your screenshot shows that it is still reaching over 190W of power consumption. Most laptop cooling systems will be overwhelmed at that level. Your choices are thermal throttling, power limit throttling, reducing the CPU speed or some sort of combination of all of the above.

1/ I'll try to set the V/F points via BIOS.
2/ Setting all to 52 still gives Thermal Throttling. The threshold for my environment x machine seems to be 50x
3/ I have a 400W brick, I wouldn't mind it using it to its full capacity xD Or whatever the maximum it can achieve in 97°C or thereabouts. I know the chip is rated for 100-105 but I personally don't want to run them three digits due to OCD reasons.
4/ I agree, just trying to find the best pareto front. Just 20-30% of the way there right now.

Screenshots of settings attached to compare vs Throttlestop. Especially if anyone has the same machine and finds its helpful.

Cheers!

 

[unclewebb]

Any way I can help with that remotely?

Thanks for your offer to help. I have no plans at the moment to update ThrottleStop to fully support Intel's new Core Ultra HX processors. XTU or the BIOS are your only options.

tried the same stuff in Intel XTU. It really sucks at applying profiles

You always need to double check to make sure the voltages that XTU claims to be applying are actually being applied. The values in the individual CPU voltage registers are sometimes not what XTU is showing. After booting up or resuming from sleep or after making any voltage changes, always restart HWiNFO to see what it shows.

I couldn't figure out how to do the V/F offset thing in XTU

This might not be possible in XTU. The BIOS might not let you do this either. Being able to do an offset undervolt and a V/F point adjustment both at the same time is an undocumented feature. I am not sure if Intel knows this is possible. All I know is that it works great on my 14900HX. Not sure if this trick will work the same on the Core Ultra processors.