AMD Internal Benchmarks Show HD 3850 Supremacy

[wickerman]

The biggest problem lies with the architecture path that ATI has chosen. Nvidia's Scalar MADD+MUL architecture is nothing like the Superscalar MADDx5 architecture ATI is using. On paper ATIs can look stronger, but comparing the two architectures even on paper is not a safe thing to do because they are nothing alike. ATI may have more ALUs for example, but NVidias run at twice the speed, but then again the each unit in the superscalar architecture can do more independent instructions at a time.

ATIs weak point right now is really that its architecture requires highly optimized drivers, and your games need to be designed with this type of architecture in mind. If your application and driver are not constantly generating as many independent instructions as possible all the time, the execution units in this architecture are being left idle, and you have terrible efficiency and this impacts performance. Nvidias scalar architecture does not have this limitation, because its more flexible because in a lot of applications your next command often relies on the previous one, and you dont always need or can generate 5 independent operations. You can look to this to understand why ATI is often improving performance with every driver release instead of just improving compatibility with games. And it can also explain why at its best, the hd2900xt was able to beat the 8800GTX, yet at its worst the hd2900xt wasnt even able to beat the x1950xtx.
Another thing to remember is that with these architectures ATI is basically focusing all their power on raw shader power for which it is significantly faster than even the 8800 ultra for shader operations per second, yet it neglects things like pixel fillrate and texture fillrate. R600 only has 16 ROPs and 16 TMUs, compared to G80s 32 TMUs and 24 ROPs.

Its always going to boil down to case by case comparison, some games will run better now on G80/G92 others right now may run better on R600/RV670...who knows about tomorrow, maybe in a year ATI's architecture will show its full power, maybe not. Maybe ATI's will prove stronger with the professional segment where AMD wants it, and us gamers will have to make due with acceptable performance, or go to the competition.

What you have to remember is the difference between the fastest, and whats fast enough. Does an hd2900xt play most if not all games at high resolutions while keeping playable FPS? Yea. Will the new HD38x0 series? Yea. Is the 8800 series faster? More often than not yea... Will people pay more for a faster card? You bet your ass, but should ATI expect strong sales from something slower? No reason why they shouldnt. If they can get close to HD2900xt performance from a $150-$200 card range than thats a huge plus. The HD2900 pro sold VERY well at $250 for just this reason.

If ATI can make some further optimizations to the RV670 and related architectures, such as improving their shader recompiler, driver/application optimization, improving their texture dispatch processing, etc then they stand to gain solid ground. How many people believed the 8800GT would get close to the GTX performance? It wasnt hard when you know how to make a good thing better.

ATI and Nvidia have always, and will always trade the performance crown back and forth. One company will have the superior performance for one or two generations, then the other company will take that lead. If you look here and now your wasting as much time as you are money. Buy the cheapest card you can that remains "fast enough" and upgrade it two or more times a year. Buying 1 big expensive card and hoping it lasts you 2 years might work, but its usually gunna hit its peak long before then. Premium cards never stay on their pedestal for more than a year, and high end cards are lucky to get half that. Upgrade to the best value and upgrade often.

*edit*
And to fuel the fire a bit, take a look at some other numbers, namely the 3870:
twrococ.com

 

[TiKKa]

Opps i didn't read things propper like....... my bad

 

[laszlo]

The biggest problem lies with the architecture path that ATI has chosen.


I agree 100% and i hope they change something soon.

 

[tostator]

Great discourse, wickerman!!!!

 

[tkpenalty]

The 3850 is the midrange card of the HD 38XX family, like how the 2600 was the "midrange" of the HD2xxx family. The HD 3870 is the Highend card.

If we assume that these benchies are correct it means that the 3850 evenly competes with the HD2900XT we can therefore assume that the 3870 will be faster than the HD2900XT which means that it will compete with the GT/GTX.

These cards are refreshers as the R680 will launch beginning next year and the R700 at the end of 2008.

IMO ATI f***K up the R600 just like how nVidia did with the FX. and nVidia came back strong becuase necessity is the mother of invention

Yep... urged to pick their act up. Nvidia were acting all lazy and trying new methods back on 02~03, stuff that wouldnt work right. They got whooped bigtime, then they put all their effort into improving.

 

[sam0t]

I will take dual slot cooler anyday over single slot ones if it means that the card will run cool and silently. 8800 stock cooler seems to do loysy job in cooling the card, on the other hand 3870 seems to have excelent stock cooler. I´ll wait and see for the proper benchmarks/reviews.

Fact is that you cannot go wrong with either card, this is what the true mid range cards should be.

 

[Scrizz]

I mainly go ATI b/c of the A/V features those cards have.

 

[tkpenalty]

I will take dual slot cooler anyday over single slot ones if it means that the card will run cool and silently. 8800 stock cooler seems to do loysy job in cooling the card, on the other hand 3870 seems to have excelent stock cooler. I´ll wait and see for the proper benchmarks/reviews.

Fact is that you cannot go wrong with either card, this is what the true mid range cards should be.

Hah, you are somewhat ignorant! That HD3870 cooler is satisfactory, a copper block with fins, by far one of the worst cooler designs. I mean the air resistance must be absolutely huge. Its in no way a good cooler at all. Dual slot doesnt mean good, its the way that they design the cooler that counts.

 

[Morgoth]

Decent performance for a mid card. The 2600 really failed to deliver. Glad to see the new 3850 can pump some decent frames.

AGP please.

yea agp plz 2900

 

[happita]

Hah, you are somewhat ignorant! That HD3870 cooler is satisfactory, a copper block with fins, by far one of the worst cooler designs. I mean the air resistance must be absolutely huge. Its in no way a good cooler at all. Dual slot doesnt mean good, its the way that they design the cooler that counts.

Agreed. That's why third-party companies develop much better aftermarket coolers for components. AMD/nVidia/Intel, their main concern is the performance of the product, THEN comes cooling.
However this isn't always the case, companies like Sapphire, BFG, etc. that make GPU's based on nVidia/ATI chipsets make custom coolers as well to provide to the enthusiast market. Hence stock coolers from AMD/nVidia/Intel are crap the majority of the time.

 

[wickerman]

Its no secrete, AMD wants single slot cooling with their reference design so they can push quad crossfire, which you couldnt do with each card taking up 2 slots. I am reluctant to deal with single slot coolers on the high end of things as well, you just dont get the surface area a lot of these cards need to remain efficient, and you have to reply on a tiny little hamster wheel blower fan to push enough air, and those thing just loud when you go past a certain range. But this isnt exactly a new design, hell Nvidia used this same type of heatsink for its 6800 series, 7800 series, and although it looks different...the 8800GT uses a similar style.

But you also have to remember that before these heatsink designs are approved these cards go through simulation testing and realtime testing to verify that the heatsink can provide the right cooling power. So basically these cards are tested inside and oven that is heated to within a few degrees of the failing point and if it cant provide enough cooling power, they go to the next design. To think that they just pick a heatsink out of a hat and throw it on a card is just silly, you dont trust your whole product platform too a chunk of copper and a 22 cent fan.
3rd parties change the cooling to distinguish themselves from one another, each company has its fine print that states they will not cover any damages done to the card due to running it out of specification or any physical modifications done to the card. But they know your gunna overclock em, and if they can put a good cooler and the card it rules you having to change the cooler, because when your removing a cooler and adding a new one, thats usually when people damage the card, either by improperly mounting the heatsink, chipping the core, knocking a capacitor loose, etc.

But knowing that these companies (all all companies) are ready and willing to cut cost at any corner they can, its easy to understand that sometimes your gunna get the cheapest and most simple heatsink thats gunna do the job, because its easier to make than a big elaborate 3 heatpipe copper monster like the stock hd2900 series heatsink

 

[15th Warlock]

All I can say is, what a terrible, terrible naming convention. I mean, it's really nice to see AMD putting pressure on nVidia if this card is supposed to compete with the 8600, but, come on, naming your mainstream part 3850 and your flagship 3870 really is bound to cause a lot of trouble.

Both Ati and nVidia PR departments should be fired... What a mess up, so sad, seeing their latest cards having such price to performance ratios...

 

[springs113]

In regards to wickerman....and ati wanting to push single slots... i agree to a point...but
if you check...MSI has built a 790 board that will support 4 dual slot 3870s

 

[-=CrAnSwIcK=-]

man, i know i'll be like the 10th person to say this, but some people on this forum are just too damn stupid, and narrow minded to believe ATI could overtake the almighty nvidia...basically here's how it is...HD 3850 will be in competition with 8600GTS and anything in that price bracket, bottomline, name and numbers mean nothing, if it costs the same they are competitors...also HD 3850 will go against the 256mb 8800gt, a battle i've yet to see...also these are next gen products, the mid range should always equal, surpass or at least keep up with the high end of the previous generation, hence the comparison with the 2900xt...same reason an 1600xt performs about the same as x850...and 2600xt was different it stumbled a bit, but it wasn't WAY behind the x1900...now we have 3850 clearly dominating the 8600gts...so we can assume the 3870 will be a tad faster, although to be a tad slower than the 8800gt at stock speeds, remember these new ATI cards are fabbed at 55nm, which means they should overclock better than 8800gt, as well the higher end 3870 has a dual slot cooler which would again allow for higher clocks.... let's not forget nvidia upped the clocks on the 8800gt before the launch, and that's why the damn things get so friggen hot...let's also remember that you can't friggin buy an 8800gt anymore cause they're sold out everywhere, and you nvidia fanboys who don't already have one, by the time you get your hands on an 8800gt, everyone who had the sense not to make judgments, and wait for the launch to see what's what will be playing UT3 and Crysis on their HD 38x0's and you'll be sitting on newegg.com hitting the refresh button over and over waiting for nvidia's next shipment...

oh and to the few people that said rv670 is an r600 with lower TDP...that doesn't even make sense...it's totally different, it's a new design...fabbed in a totally different place, at 55nm...it's like comparing a 7800gtx to an 8800gtx, and saying they are the same, except for power consumption...

and to all the performance crown junkies...stock speeds don't count...if you don't overclock, you're wasting your money...low power consumption goes hand in hand with heat output...and both of those relate directly to the size of the die...i don't foresee any throuble with an overclocked 3870 being able to surpass the 8800gt...the GT's run hot enough stock, i can't see an overclock helping it any...

 

[Lopez0101]

. . .narrow minded to believe ATI could overtake the almighty nvidia...

Almighty. . . it was only a generation ago (Before the 8800 series) that ATi was the performance king, so I wouldn't exactly called Nvidia almighty. (Let's not forget the FX vs. 9x00 series)

 

[-=CrAnSwIcK=-]

Almighty. . . it was only a generation ago (Before the 8800 series) that ATi was the performance king, so I wouldn't exactly called Nvidia almighty. (Let's not forget the FX vs. 9x00 series)

was sarcasm aimed at the "nothing can beat nvidia" crowd...perhaps i should have included the ...excellent point though...laff...cheers

 

[Lopez0101]

Haha, yeah I couldn't really tell. It didn't really seem to make sense with the rest of what you were saying either.

 

[-=CrAnSwIcK=-]

Haha, yeah I couldn't really tell. It didn't really seem to make sense with the rest of what you were saying either.

don't get me wrong, the 8800gt IS an excellent video card...the only cons i can see are heat, and availability...and both of these areas is where HD 3870 should shine...