APC UPS triggered system shutdown when it shouldn't have.

[trparky]

This happened this evening when there was a storm rolling through the area. It caused the power to drop about three times within a period of about two to three seconds, this of course caused Windows to hibernate the system. When I brought the system back up, the Event Log indicated that a "Critical Battery Trigger Met" was met even though the battery percentage was 90% charged. Yes, I know; you're going to ask what the load on the UPS is and the load is less than 15%.

I've tested this by recreating this kind of situation by pulling the power cord from the outlet and sure enough, the UPS does as it's designed to do; keep the power on. OK, this is good. So, why did the system shut down when I had three momentary drops in power that shouldn't have even touched the battery?

 

[timta2]

Have you checked the "Shutdown when runtime or battery % drop below x" option in the configuration software? I ask because you didn't mention it. It's also normal for undervoltage protection to kick in during storms, when things are fluctuating.

 

[trparky]

 

[R-T-B]

I have had this happen (infrequently) with my tripp lite. It seems it gives a "0%" battery reading for like a brief microsecond during some unknown set of circumstances (nearly always alongside an electrical anomaly). If I had to guess, I'd say it's some kind of reporting firmware bug...

I don't know why it happens, but if it's any comfort, it happens very infrequently with me. Still annoying.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
I'm on a 3 year old apc xs-1500 with a cheap amazon replacement battery
Had a power outage yesterday morning battery worked as designed stayed on until I shutdown about 10 minutes after the power went out seeing power wasn't going to be restored for a couple hours they said.
If it's a firmware bug it's never hit me since I've had mine and we loose power in Texas a lot

I use a performance power plan by the way and adjust the min processor state to 10%

hibernation disabled via cmd

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

I disabled hibernation so critical action is set to sleep and do nothing. My area is subject to brown-outs during storms so power is doenst go comnpletely out for any significantly long periods of time, unless there is something much more serious happening, like a substation blowing up. The only problem I ran into, once, was when it wouldnt let me boot into windows with 45% battery left with the power still out.

 

[Bill_Bright]

power to drop about three times within a period of about two to three seconds, this of course caused Windows to hibernate the system.

Why do you say "of course" it caused Windows to hibernate the system. That is NOT a normal action.

Normal, as you subsequently and correctly suggested, would be "nothing" - that is the computer kept chugging along as if it was a calm, blue sky, sunny day.

Also hibernate is best used for laptops, not PCs. "Hybrid mode" was created for and is best used with PCs. I recommend you change that setting to Hybrid mode.

Which APC UPS? Does it support communications with the computer via a USB cable connection? If so, have you installed PowerChute - APC's UPS management/monitoring/configuration software? I definitely recommend using PowerChute.

So, why did the system shut down when I had three momentary drops in power that shouldn't have even touched the battery?

You say you had "drops" in power. But it is critical to note that drops (dips and/or sags) are normally following by surges or spikes with that cyclic pattern continuing until power stabilizes. My "guess" is your power fluctuations, or specifically the surges/spikes, were abnormally "extreme". And your UPS killed power to protect itself, and your connected devices. That is actually a good thing!

By pulling the plug, you tested the UPS's ability to sense a significant power/voltage drop and cut over to battery power quickly enough - allowing the PSU to keep outputting voltages (see PSU hold up time) - also a good thing.

But pulling the plug does NOT test the UPS in how it handles abnormally "extreme" power surges and spikes.

There are 3 levels of anomalies a UPS must deal with.

1. Minor surges and spikes (and dips and sags) - typically and easily handled by the AVR (automatic voltage regulation) feature of a "good" UPS without kicking over to battery backup.​

2. Moderate to extreme surges, spikes, dips and sags - easily handled by the AVR kicking the UPS over to battery.​

3. Abnormally extreme surges and spikes - often the result of a p!$$ed off Mother Nature tossing a lightning bolt near your home - too extreme for the AVR feature to safely compensate for. In this event it [hopefully] shuts down.​

​

Okay 4 levels.​

​

4. And extremely p!$$ed off Mother Nature who tossed a lightning bolt directly at your home. In that scenario, grab the dog and run!​

BTW, while pulling the plug is a good way to test an UPS, it is not advisable - at least not with a computer connected. Should the UPS or batteries fail to maintain output, the computer will come crashing down and that leads to the possibility of a corrupt drive and lost data. Not a good thing.

Also, typically, unless you are running some benchmark or stress test program, chances are your computer is pretty much at idle - that is, it is NOT putting much of a load on the PSU or the UPS. Pulling the plug will test the UPS monitoring and cutover circuits, but that is not really a good test to see if the batteries can still support a realistic load.

I have two 150 light bulbs in two lamps I connect to my UPS - then I yank the plug. If the lights stay lit, I know my UPS and the battery cells within are still good!

***
Just for FYI - low voltage anomalies (below 90VAC/180VAC) as defined by the ATX Form Factor standard for PSUs are:

Dip = opposite of spike​

Sag = opposite of surge​

Brownout = long duration sag​

​

​

 

[1freedude]

How old is the battery? Besides the cord yank, have you load tested the battery?

I had a very high dollar AGM that tested fine with a volt meter and light bulb, but then I hooked it up to a 2kw inverter, no load, and it wouldn't even turn it on. A small 7ah sla was able to start the inverter and run a load.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Yeah battery or maybe connection to the battery is wonky
Easy to disassemble and see what's going on sometimes the connections can start to corrode.

 

[trparky]

Also hibernate is best used for laptops, not PCs. "Hybrid mode" was created for and is best used with PCs. I recommend you change that setting to Hybrid mode.

How would that be changed?

Which APC UPS? Does it support communications with the computer via a USB cable connection? If so, have you installed PowerChute - APC's UPS management/monitoring/configuration software? I definitely recommend using PowerChute.

APC Back-UPS Pro 1000S (BR1000MS). I was using the built-in Windows power management components. Is that not what is recommended?

How old is the battery? Besides the cord yank, have you load tested the battery?

The UPS is about two years old, the battery was (obviously) new when I bought the UPS.

You say you had "drops" in power. But it is critical to note that drops (dips and/or sags) are normally following by surges or spikes with that cyclic pattern continuing until power stabilizes. My "guess" is your power fluctuations, or specifically the surges/spikes, were abnormally "extreme". And your UPS killed power to protect itself, and your connected devices. That is actually a good thing!

The power event that did happen that night did cause a whole plaza about a quarter of a mile away from me to be completely shut down, a bunch of stores in that area had a lot of their hardware fried including a grocery store that had a bunch of their ovens get fried. Oops. Or at least, that's what they said when I wanted some bread in the bakery department and they didn't have any. However, that was a quarter of a mile away and (I'd assume) that I'm not even close to being connected to the same substation.

Another system in my house stayed up just fine, no hibernation at all; yet mine did.

 

[Bill_Bright]

If you don't see Hybrid sleep in Power options, your motherboard may not support it. This is a minor issue and not worth worrying over.

APC Back-UPS Pro 1000S (BR1000MS). I was using the built-in Windows power management components. Is that not what is recommended?

It is more a matter of personal preference but it is important to understand if you use APC's program (PowerChute), you can configure the UPS to automatically and gracefully shut down your computer BEFORE the batteries fully discharge. To me, that is a HUGE benefit over the Window's app. You can also use PowerChute to tell the UPS to run a self-test, so you don't have to yank the cord.

Just checking my PowerChute, which is just sitting quietly in my System Tray, TM says it is consuming just 2.6Mb of RAM and 0% CPU.

For those with a CyberPower UPS, they provide a similar app called PowerPanel.

The UPS is about two years old, the battery was (obviously) new when I bought the UPS.

Just note it is normal user maintenance to have to periodically replace those batteries. Sadly, there is no accurate way to predict how often they will need replacing but typically they last from 2 to 5 years. This depends on how much abuse they take from your power grid, how often the UPS has to kick over to battery power, and then how long they have to provide power when on battery.

And I never, as in NEVER EVER buy replacement batteries from the UPS maker. They charge you an arm and a leg for the exact same cells you can get from Amazon or a number of other battery retailers who only charge you an arm.

The power event that did happen that night did cause a whole plaza about a quarter of a mile away from me to be completely shut down, a bunch of stores in that area had a lot of their hardware fried including a grocery store that had a bunch of their ovens get fried.

(I'd assume) that I'm not even close to being connected to the same substation.

I would say it is highly likely you are indeed on the same substation. A quarter mile is very close. Your block or maybe just your street may be on your own "transformer" but note a single transformer can support 50 or more customers in a local area. And a substation can support dozens (or many more) of those transformers, depending on the size of the substation. So it is very likely your whole extended neighborhood, or even your part of town are on the same substation.

Depending on its size, a single substation can easily support an entire town! Even this is "a" (as in one) substation. And if it takes a hit, it can create havoc for 1000s of customers.

If that plaza, just a mere 1,320 feet away from your home, took that severe of a hit, and your computer survived unscathed, I would say your APC UPS served you very well indeed.

 

[trparky]

I also have whole-home surge suppression at the power panel too, I just have a UPS for those times that the power drops which is quite rare but still piece of mind is always a good thing.

To be honest, I never thought to use the PowerChute software since most third-party software are resource hogs. It's very interesting to see that PowerChute is not a hog. The tray executable only uses about 7 MB of RAM which is good and as for CPU usage, it's dead silent; only when do you double-click the tray icon which executes a second process that hosts the main window does it use more resources. Very good.

Background software should be small and light-weight so that it doesn't interfere with what you want to run like games and web browsers that like to eat RAM and CPU (I'm looking at you Chrome!).

 

[Bill_Bright]

I also have whole-home surge suppression at the power panel too

Just remember whole-home surge suppression is useless against excessive anomalies that originate from within the home. These can come from a faulty big appliance or a poorly designed device, such as a $15 1500W hair dryer made in some backwoods factory in China using components made in similar factory up river.

And of course, no surge and spike protector provides any protection whatsoever from low voltage anomalies like dips, sags, brown-outs, or full power outages.

 

[newtekie1]

Also hibernate is best used for laptops, not PCs. "Hybrid mode" was created for and is best used with PCs. I recommend you change that setting to Hybrid mode.

I'd like to hear your reasoning behind this. I don't see any reason hibernate would be best for laptops and no PCs. Other than the minor difference in the time it takes to wake back up, there is no real reason not to use hibernate on a desktop since hibernate saves more power.

 

[Bill_Bright]

there is no real reason not to use hibernate on a desktop since hibernate saves more power.

Saving power is not really a reason one way or another - it is mostly about a user's personal preference.

But if saving energy is your top priority, then completely power off the PC. Don't use any standby mode.

Hibernate is best for laptops because it allows for faster boots by saving an image of the virtual environment to disk before shutting down completely. The point there is, once in hibernate mode, there is no further drain on the laptop's battery - a plus for road warriors.

PCs of course, don't have batteries. So hybrid makes sense for PCs because the ATX Form Factor standard for PCs requires all ATX power supplies continue to supply +5Vsb voltage to multiple points on the motherboard, including the RAM, when in hybrid sleep mode. This is particularly advantageous with DDR4 for PCs because it is specifically designed to retain its data in a low voltage state for even faster start ups.

I don't see any reason hibernate would be best for laptops and no PCs. Other than the minor difference in the time it takes to wake back up, there is no real reason not to use hibernate on a desktop since hibernate saves more power.

That's just it, isn't it?

FOR YOU, you clearly place saving energy as more important than waking up from sleep faster. And that's fine - as long as you don't assume that is what's best for everyone else.

I very much like it when my computer takes less than 4 seconds to wake from sleep, resuming right where I left off.

I also have no problem (and have never had any issues) with Windows or my security software waking my computers for updates or scans - something not possible with Hibernate. So FOR ME, I place convenience and saving time more important since this computer, for example, consumes just 3W when sleeping (according to my UPS). That's a drop in the bucket in my home since my modem, router, 3 TV cable boxes, TVs, fridge, deep freezer, AC, ovens, alarm clocks, chargers, night lights, garage door opener and any number of other things are sucking down power 24/7/365 anyway.

I'd like to hear your reasoning behind this.

It is not really my reasoning. It is the hardware industry's reasoning - along with Microsoft's. I just happen to agree with it.

 

[80251]

I believe hybrid mode isn't enabled by default in windows 10. On my rig I had to deliberately enable it in control panel to even have the hybrid option in "power options."

The boot up speed is amazing when using the hybrid option. Is plain hibernation a safer option for potential power outages (since nothing is being saved in RAM)?

 

[Bill_Bright]

Is plain hibernation a safer option for potential power outages (since nothing is being saved in RAM)?

No. That's the beauty of hybrid mode. It is a "hybrid".

So if your PC is asleep in hybrid mode and the power goes out, the system effectively resorts to hibernation and loads the image from the hiber.fil file instead of RAM.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Is hybrid sleep distinct from the sleep option that is found when clicking the power button in the start menu?

And it saves a system image but does not fully power down afterwards?

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Probably just a win-11 bug
Clean install/ repair install if it happens again.

 

[80251]

I wish I had been using sleep/hibernation mode years ago, but I didn't trust it, or rather I didn't trust my memory overclocks.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Most don't use hibernation because they don't want a huge hiper file on their ssd's not because of memory oc bugger man

 

[oobymach]

It may have been mentioned, get the software to control your UPS and set the sensetivity to Low or if it asks for voltage set the lowest possible so it only kicks in if the voltage goes below what you set.

 

[80251]

Hi,
Most don't use hibernation because they don't want a huge hiper file on their ssd's not because of memory oc bugger man

Hiberfil.sys is a 13 GiB file, but I have plenty of space on my OS SSD. I usually ran my PC 24-7 though so I'm hoping my power bill will go down.

 

[newtekie1]

It is not really my reasoning. It is the hardware industry's reasoning - along with Microsoft's. I just happen to agree with it.

You haven't really shown me anything that it is the hardware industry's reasoning. You've gone on about how it is your personal preference because it wakes up faster, but nothing to back up that one is actually better than the other. Personal preference doesn't make one better than the other for Desktop vs. Laptop. It's all personal preference, as you pointed out.

My personal preference is actually to never turn a desktop off. Modern desktop use so little power when idle, it doesn't make much sense to put them to sleep or hibernate. And if I'm not using my laptop, it's shut down. Truly shut down, not that hibernate BS that Microsoft tries to pull. But that's my preference, I'm not going to state it like it some kind of industry standard.

But, if someone is putting their computers to sleep or hibernating them, they are doing it for the power savings. And if you are doing it for the power savings, using hibernate for maximum power savings is the way to go. The wakeup time for both on a computer with an SSD is nearly identical(literally a 2 second difference). It takes my computer 6 whole seconds to wake up from hibernation. Seriously, we aren't living in the stone age here. I get that hibernation used to take quite a while to wake from, but those days are just gone.

If you really want to make broad general statements about sleep vs. hibernation being better in specific situations, I'd say use sleep if you still have your OS on a HDD, use hibernation if your OS is on an SSD. Also, use sleep if your OS is installed in legacy mode and hibernate if your OS is install in UEFI mode.

And Microsoft's reasoning seems to be to use hibernate. Hence, their default shutdown now being hibernate and not actually shutdown.

Hi,
Most don't use hibernation because they don't want a huge hiper file on their ssd's not because of memory oc bugger man

Yeah, that make sense for systems with smaller SSDs. But Bill is suggesting Hybrid Sleep, which still creates the hiber file anyway.

 

[trparky]

But, if someone is putting their computers to sleep or hibernating them, they are doing it for the power savings.

That's exactly why I do it, power savings. Between sleeping and working eight hours a day, that's about sixteen hours where if I had my computer on all that time, that's a hell of a lot of power that's wasted. According to my UPS, that would sixteen hours of usage at 150 Watts.