Are GPU's getting too BIG?

[Bomby569]

My 4080 definitely does NOT need a 4090 cooler on it, it uses around 200-220w in games most of the time and rarely reaches 60C
I wouldn't mind it being smaller and maybe reaching mid 70s in games as a trade off, as long as it didn't throttle i'd be fine with it.

As someone that owned a sub par MSI ventus card in the past, i can tell you the trade off between having a bigger card and a hotter card is really not worth it especially in the summer, unless you live in Alaska i guess. Have you tried living with a card that goes constantly above 70 before?

this was what gaming in the summer felt like

 

[TheEndIsNear]

As I sit here looking at this zotac 4090 and I have to say hell yes. A few years ago I would've thought it was a joke prop or something. Thing shreds anything though.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

As someone that owned a sub par MSI ventus card in the past, i can tell you the trade off between having a bigger card and a hotter card is really not worth it especially in the summer, unless you live in Alaska i guess. Have you tried living with a card that goes constantly above 70 before?

this was what gaming in the summer felt like

View attachment 279033

except 450 watts on three slots cooling is still the same heat out put as a 450 watts on a four slot card. Heat out put doesn't change. Your still going to being sweating

 

[Assimilator]

except 450 watts on three slots cooling is still the same heat out put as a 450 watts on a four slot card. Heat out put doesn't change. Your still going to being sweating

It boggles my mind how many people don't understand this.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Yes, clearly the fact that it runs 7 to 10 dB quieter at similar temps has nothing to do with the cooler size and weight.

That can come down to mere fan design and speed. Obviously what I was referring to was the temps were the same if not a bit worse on that massive cooler. I mean I get it, people are drawn to big coolers thinking they're going to actually RUN cooler, as I was with the ASUS TUF RTX 4090. When I saw that it had quite a bit higher VRAM temps due to using MUCH thicker thermal pads to take up the extra space between the memory and the HS though, I started seeing the flaw of the TUF cooler design. They're also the card with the most coil whine. So yeah, TUF, maybe, but cooling performance matters too, especially when you have a cooler that's nearly 14" and over 4.5 lbs. And what good does low, quiet fan speed do when you've got all that coil whine?

 

[agent_x007]

Card are big, because users only expect and buy higher performance (power and temperature be damned).

Limit on how big card actually get is set by price of cooler and PCB layout/VRM quality (+die itself), that are required to make it all work.
Because of this, I highly doubt we will get any bigger GPUs than current 4090s in 1000-2000$ price range in future. They are simply not economical enough to be mass produced.
(2k$+ is another ballgame though)

I wish NV would just cTDP all GPUs to ~75W/~150W/~225W/~300W/~450W+ (depending on manufacturers desire).
Want to build AD102 LP card ?
Go right ahead... here's your "up to" 150W die (1.5GHz @ 0.7V ?), good luck fitting 384-bit bus on that low profile PCB.

 

[Bomby569]

except 450 watts on three slots cooling is still the same heat out put as a 450 watts on a four slot card. Heat out put doesn't change. Your still going to being sweating

you have no sensor for heat output, that's the core temperature, the better the cooling solution the less heat output you will have into the case, heating the other components creating a oven effect.
If i have 3 fans pulling fresh air into it the exhaust temperature wont be the same as having one fan pulling summer 30c air into it.
You can measure the heat output from the back but that is not the same as the gpu core temperature. I'm not inside the core die so that's not what will make me sweat

 

[TumbleGeorge]

If your incomes decreased to be equal to incomes in my country i think that the careless and sloppy attitude towards the hypertrophied size, mass and prices of graphics cards will instantly change. The problem with an immature attitude is that you make too much money and that spending doesn't hurt you.

 

[freeagent]

Mass from big cooler is so fans don't have to scream in rgb covered hotboxes. Still gonna get warm, but at least it will be quiet. There is a reason why they don't use blowers anymore on consumer cards, unless they are weak.

 

[Vayra86]

you have no sensor for heat output, that's the core temperature, the better the cooling solution the less heat output you will have into the case, heating the other components creating a oven effect.
If i have 3 fans pulling fresh air into it the exhaust temperature wont be the same as having one fan pulling summer 30c air into it.
You can measure the heat output from the back but that is not the same as the gpu core temperature. I'm not inside the core die so that's not what will make me sweat

If you are in 30C summer air you are sweating regardless

This whole story is bs, sorry. Coolers both big and small dissipate heat. They move it from one place to another. They dont necessarily make your room hotter or cooler - the device they dissipate heat from will run cooler. That heat is exhausted - and for the device to keep working, fan speeds are adjusted OR the card will clock down using less power. But in both cases you are getting a number of watts converted into energy that becomes heat and needs to leave the enclosure.

The next enclosure is your ambient / room. It then comes down to how easily you can lose heat in the room, but the temp will climb if you cant. The smaller the difference between that room and the next location the air can move to, the less effective your device will work (or make more noise) until some equilibrium is found.

Whether you run a 1 slot blower or a 4 slot open air, if they both are capable of dissipating 200W, they will create the same amount of temperature influence on your 'next enclosure'. Even if one device runs at 40C and the other at 85C core temp.

 

[Bomby569]

If you are in 30C summer air you are sweating regardless

This whole story is bs, sorry. Coolers both big and small dissipate heat. They move it from one place to another. They dont necessarily make your room hotter or cooler - the device they dissipate heat from will run cooler. That heat is exhausted - and for the device to keep working, fan speeds are adjusted OR the card will clock down using less power. But in both cases you are getting a number of watts converted into energy that becomes heat and needs to leave the enclosure.

The next enclosure is your ambient / room. It then comes down to how easily you can lose heat in the room, but the temp will climb if you cant. The smaller the difference between that room and the next location the air can move to, the less effective your device will work (or make more noise) until some equilibrium is found.

Whether you run a 1 slot blower or a 4 slot open air, if they both are capable of dissipating 200W, they will create the same amount of temperature influence on your 'next enclosure'. Even if one device runs at 40C and the other at 85C core temp.

two cars, same engine same air temp, one with a big radiator and a big fan, the other a smaller radiator and fan, stand next to them and tell me the temperature near them is the same, i dare you to try.

 

[Vayra86]

two cars, same engine same air temp, one with a big radiator and a big fan, the other a smaller radiator and fan, stand next to them and tell me the temperature near them is the same, i dare you to try.

What?! A car analogy to defy how physics work? Do you even logic?

I think you should read the above again and take special note of how environmental factors are at play. Yes, you can also put your hands on the engine block and leave your skin behind.. but wasnt it YOU that said you dont live inside the core of a gpu? But: you DO sit in the same room as your PC.

If those two cars are inside your room and both expel equal amounts of energy, you will find it irrelevant what fan size is in these cars. But thats not how cars work; they dont boost or throttle and they dont drive indoors with no ventilation.

 

[Chrispy_]

two cars, same engine same air temp, one with a big radiator and a big fan, the other a smaller radiator and fan, stand next to them and tell me the temperature near them is the same, i dare you to try.

I don't want to get involved with the argument but you're using the wrong example for the wrong reasons and missing some fundamental physics principles that are taught in secondary school. TPU forums have a higher-than-average proportion of higher-education STEM graduates who have years of career in the field of physics/maths/engineering.

I'm not your physics teacher, but you should refresh yourself on the four laws of thermodynamics, ideal gas law, what the difference between open and closed systems are, and when to model a scenario as open or closed. That's not an attempt to patronise, but a genuine suggestion to you that this understanding will be useful to you for so many areas covered by TPU forums and reviews.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Undoubtedly, the hot air from the box does not instantly transmit its heat throughout the room, and the local warming may be unpleasant for the user, especially if the fans at the outlet of the box are blowing towards him, or the air flow is deflected in his direction by a nearby wall or other barrier .

 

[ThrashZone]

two cars, same engine same air temp, one with a big radiator and a big fan, the other a smaller radiator and fan, stand next to them and tell me the temperature near them is the same, i dare you to try.

Hi,
Problem is both likely have the same thermostat temperature rating so it would open and fluid would circulate at+- the same temp so bad example.

 

[Bet0n]

We can find proper videocards (TDP<250W) with normal sized coolers. Only these niche beasts made for work/mining/ultra 4K gaming need very big coolers so I don't care.

 

[AsRock]

And eating all the dust there? No thanks, I prefer my case on the desk....

Yeah they were doing well until the floor part ha, i think HiFi racks are the way to go.

 

[wheresmycar]

When the cards are 5 slot like the Noctua 4080(?) that is just ludicrous though.

I like that sort of chunky junk providing the desired case can accomodate one. TBH, i was hoping we'd get greater variety of x2 120/140mm fan featured GPUs, preferably the affordable variety with sharp trim in temp/noise performance. Noctuas are always gonna be pricey... AIBs should drop stock options froim the get go

 

[Vayra86]

I disagree
This was created by P.c Gamers them selves.

Nah. The PC gamer isnt the cause of this. The vast majority of the market buys midrange and maxes out at 300-450 eur. Sure they prob expanded the range a bit, but nowhere near 700+.

This is crypto pricing, thinking the user is looking at a return on investment and calculating it in. Note that Nvidia already dropped 4070ti msrp... I think we will be seeing more of this. Current gen cards are in fact left on shelves, too.

 

[ARF]

The vast majority of the market buys midrange and maxes out at 300-450 eur.

300-450 is already performance tier toward lower end of the high-end spectrum.

Low-end - <100
Mid-range - 100 - 200
Performance - >200
High-end - >450

 

[AsRock]

You could apply the same perspective to the manufacturer.

What is really happening though is: die size is at its limits, so extra performance is gained through excessive clocking outside the optimal V/F curve for the node in question. This isn't new, but the degree to which this is happening, is new, and must be facilitated with much bigger cooling solutions.

This is a disaster waiting to happen and if you look at how quickly this is liable to escalate from here on (look at TDP figures over time since Pascal), the disaster is already happening. The innovation within ADA but also within RDNA3 seems to have hit a wall; both wrt raster and RT. Something's gonna give; meanwhile the margins on these products have gone through the roof while the die sizes haven't become notably bigger than they've always been at segments of the market. Instead of larger die or more refined MCM, we get a larger hunk of metal on top; cost reduction (!) while margins are up. WE are paying not only the higher price of entry, but also the higher TDP as a result of cost reductions on the manufacturer's side. Explain this madness if you can?

If you have to keep buying a 'tier down' every gen (because naturally, the slot size growth is going to trickle down, otherwise you'll meet a dead end in mid range as well), what you're effectively doing, is stagnating. Might as well not upgrade at that point. Your logic is flawed.

Well by me the power usage is great and no worse than it was when they released the AMD 290X\390X in fact it's a load better in some cases, although i am comparing to my needs which all so is only 60Hz.

Just for a example Red Dead used to hover around 390-415w (total system) with medium settings @1080p\60Hz and would get 45-60FPS, now with this 6950XT i am running 4k high settings at 4k with a solid 60fps with about the same power usages. It be on ultra settings if it would not crash ( still looking in to that ),

It's the pushing of the hardware which takes it to crazy power usages. Dam look at console they take 200+w these days.

As for the coolers getting to big, Hell no bring it on , this cooler on this 6950XT is doing a awesome job.

 

[terroralpha]

As someone that owned a sub par MSI ventus card in the past, i can tell you the trade off between having a bigger card and a hotter card is really not worth it especially in the summer, unless you live in Alaska i guess. Have you tried living with a card that goes constantly above 70 before?

this was what gaming in the summer felt like

View attachment 279033

wait what? what does the temperature of the card have to do with heat output?

rtx 4090 temps stay in the high 50s or low 60s but they burn through 420-480W. 600W if you OC and increase power target. those cards will still turn your room into a sauna in a couple of hours. meanwhile there are plenty of poorly cooled cards that only take 100W but still hit 80C. the temp of the core has ZERO correlation with heat output.

 

[fevgatos]

wait what? what does the temperature of the card have to do with heat output?

rtx 4090 temps stay in the high 50s or low 60s but they burn through 420-480W. 600W if you OC and increase power target. those cards will still turn your room into a sauna in a couple of hours. meanwhile there are plenty of poorly cooled cards that only take 100W but still hit 80C. the temp of the core has ZERO correlation with heat output.

In gaming, it's really hard to hit 480w, let alone 600w on a 4090. Actually im not even sure it's possible to hit 600w during gaming. Maybe at 8k or something?

To make the card exceed 400w (usually in most games it sits around 350) you need to play something with RT at 4k native resolution.

 

[Jacky_BEL]

wait what? what does the temperature of the card have to do with heat output?

rtx 4090 temps stay in the high 50s or low 60s but they burn through 420-480W. 600W if you OC and increase power target. those cards will still turn your room into a sauna in a couple of hours. meanwhile there are plenty of poorly cooled cards that only take 100W but still hit 80C. the temp of the core has ZERO correlation with heat output.

If you have bad airflow or a bad cooling setup , you need a bigger temperature difference to move the heat away from the card, out in the case and ultimately into the room.
So yes, GPU temperature is very much dependant on how good your cooling solution is.
The faster you can move the heat away from the card, the lower the temperature will be.

If the room heats up too much from GPU usage , the only thing you can do is use a less powerhungry card , or optimize for low power usage.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I voted yes because most GPUs are now too big. It really doesn't have to be this way though. I think that the problem is the fact that the AIB partners have a strong tendency to go overboard with their cooling solutions. They claim that it's to reduce noise by having the fans spin slower but I think that it's also because a huge cooler makes a card look more expensive.

Consider the reference RX 7900 XTX, a card that easily beats the RTX 4070 Ti in literally every performance metric. It does this with a cooling solution that's visibly smaller and despite drawing considerably more power, it's only 0.7dBA louder. Now sure, there have been manufacturing problems with the vapour chamber on some cards but the ones that don't have that problem work just fine which means that the design itself is sound.

At the same time, it's different dimensions that can cause problems. The most common issue people have is with cards that are too long but that's not exactly new. The gigantic RTX 4090 FE is a whopping 30.4cm long and while that is very long, it's still shorter than my XFX RX 5700 XT THICC-III which is 31.5cm long and makes my reference RX 6800 XT look like a baby.

The size of video cards is one of the reasons why I love my Ultra U12-40670 giant tower case. Sure, it's like 12 years old but I never need to think about whether or not something will fit because everything fits easily. The case is 53cm tall, 23cm wide and 53cm deep.

The thing's also so deep that no card will ever stick out of it no matter how tall it is. However, the one dimension that cards have been increasing in that cannot be mitigated by ANY computer case, no matter how huge, is width. We have cards now that take up 3½ slots and that can interfere with things like sound cards, PCI-E WiFi cards and M.2 mounting cards. The width of a card affects everyone equally because motherboards are generally standard sizes and layouts based on their chipsets.

A B550 µATX motherboard could fit a 3-slot RTX 4090 FE but not a larger partner model like a 3½ slot ASUS TUF or STRIX because they'd cover the I/O headers. An B660 µATX motherboard could theoretically take the TUF or STRIX because the PCI-E x16 slot is mounted higher on the board than on an AM4 board but in either case, all slots would be rendered unusable regardless of chipset. If you have no other needs then you're fine but, to me, the width of cards is the real problem that we're facing because there's no easy way to solve that like just buying a bigger case. I suppose that vertical mounting could help but that's a whole other issue as vertical mounting would also interfere with the slots below by limiting the height of what could be installed there.