Cooler Master Introduces MasterLiquid ML360 Sub-Zero TEC AIO

[Deleted member 24505]

Obviously they cant criticize the product for what it is and how TEC is'nt that great these days anymore. It would be the last sponsored video obviously by both CM and Intel. But there's a few reasons why TEC's are'nt used in PC's no more, except for the people who want to go subzero for a bench or OC.

- The power consumption exceeds twice of your CPU
- You have twice the heat to cool
- You need a beefy PSU, we're talking 20A on 12V alone (220W)
- TEC's are very bad in moving heat; this explains the huge rise in temps once loaded
- TEC's are a point of faillure, they could snap and stop working

There's a old forum on http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?94-T-E-C-Cooling where alot of self-build TEC's where done; really amazing chillers and all that, but nobody these days is running with tecs on expensive CPU's these days. And if they where i bet they be paying a shitload on electricity costs.

Appearantly they rely on idle temps and having a higher boost due to the lower temps. But that is just for short bursts, since the CPU and water would heat up, you'd need to have the fans and pump speed at a 100% all the time to get the best of it.

TEC's are used in space, to generate electricity from a half nuclear device > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHW-RTG

Now thats putting a TEC to good use. Lifespan of estimated 40 years.

He can certainly give a honest opinion of the product, if not it just proves these people are just shills who are paid to advertise the products whether they think they are good or not, which is pointless, and the only winner is the shill who gets free stuff, and the provider, who gets free advertising. We lose because we don't get a honest review of said product. I am afraid if i was in that position i would not last very long, as if i thought it was a turd, i would call it a turd, even if it upset the provider.

 

[Jism]

And commercially seen, it would be the last product you'd be reviewing of them. And thats the thing. If you really want serious and beefy cooling, consider Phase change or simply put see if you can get hold of a vapochill unit these days.

It's basicly a fridge inside your computer, with cooling capacity from 250W up to 400W. We're talking genuine subzero temps of -25 to -45 in idle and around 0 degrees on load. There's no TEC installation you can find that can beat that to be honest. And running on 6GHz clocks with a unit like that is'nt unreal either. Just requires a bit more work like serious insulation. I had a unit like that, trust me it was way more fun then a TEC was. A 100% OC on a Radeon GPU (from 600Mhz to 1240Mhz core), a near 2000Mhz OC on a Sempron 3600+, lol.

Fun times.

 

[r.h.p]

And commercially seen, it would be the last product you'd be reviewing of them. And thats the thing. If you really want serious and beefy cooling, consider Phase change or simply put see if you can get hold of a vapochill unit these days.

View attachment 175229

It's basicly a fridge inside your computer, with cooling capacity from 250W up to 400W. We're talking genuine subzero temps of -25 to -45 in idle and around 0 degrees on load. There's no TEC installation you can find that can beat that to be honest. And running on 6GHz clocks with a unit like that is'nt unreal either. Just requires a bit more work like serious insulation. I had a unit like that, trust me it was way more fun then a TEC was. A 100% OC on a Radeon GPU (from 600Mhz to 1240Mhz core), a near 2000Mhz OC on a Sempron 3600+, lol.

Fun times.

man that looks like a alien connected to the socket

 

[Jism]

I have a slight feeling that some company's are rebranding things from the past. Like call it old wine in new packaging. TEC cooling is'nt new, and there where a ton of people who experimented with it, it died for a reason. And with CPU's so small these days and the heat output being so dense; it's not a product you want to put to use. I do prefer building a TEC chiller myself one day with a shitload of tecs in series and with a big radiator, as for a OC project or so; but not for 24/7 use.

 

[deu]

Tha fact that Intel needed to colaborate with cooler master to achieve "new performance heights" means that we will be stuck with 14m, even longer and it also means that intel will push high voltages into cpus to get as much as possible. And that also means cpu power 300W+? Cooler alone will consume 50-100W?

Intel will move to lower nm faster than donald trump would move on an easterneuropian underage model. (When possible)

 

[nguyen]

Oh, right. Peak boost with low thread count, yeah; Power usage is squared for linear voltage increase.

I don't worry about that - Boosting will always increase voltage until it hits the cooling or safe voltage limits. It's why you see 1.45V in Ryzen master all the time even when the "safe" all-core voltage is under 1.4V. XFR or whatever they're calling the algorithm will juggle the load around the cores to avoid any single area getting too hot. When you see 90C CPU temps, that's because the instantaneous hotspot of the peak-boosted core is at the absolute thermal limit and it's likely only running on that specific core for a few seconds. Fire up Ryzen Master and run something like Furmark's CPU Burner and you'll see the juggling of low-thread counts around various cores to spread the heat evenly around the die.

In fact, I think it juggles loads across cores in a CCX faster than Ryzen master can even sample:

Two cores on 3.2 and 3.5 GHz "current speed" but switch to peak and it's 4537MHz on Core 2 (bone-stock 3900X with PBO disabled)

So yeah, for very lightly-threaded workloads where XFR is pushing the thermal limits with insane overvolting on one or two maxed cores it'll help a bit, but all it'll do is triple power consumption until you hit the absolute voltage wall and even 200MHz isn't going to be game-changing. Realistically, you won't see that in multi-threaded modern games, but in CS:GO you'll get 670fps instead of 640fps. Excuse me for not getting overexcited about that on my 165Hz monitor

I imagine a 5600X with this TEC cooler can leap frog over the 5900X/ 5950X in games, justifying spending 300usd for an AIO if you are only playing games.

Now another idea is when you running the 5600X at stock 65W, the boost clocks with the TEC cooler should still be higher than running 130W PBO on the 5600X without TEC, so not much efficiency are wasted with the TEC.

Overall I think this TEC cooler is fantastic idea for gamers with 6 cores CPU, I don't even know why LTT and Der8aur tested it with 10900K, probably because only the 10900K got the thermal velocity boost .

 

[AusWolf]

The unit is only compatible with 10th and 11th generation Intel processors due to the deep software integration because nothing else produces so much heat that would necessitate such a powerful cooling solution.

 

[tirasoft]

and a ryzen 5900x on air will still beat it

It will not. Already a i7-10900k overclocked with a good liquid cooling is better in games than any 5000 series AMD

 

[kapone32]

There are ambient tempeature and dew point sensors that control the TEC temperature to stay above dew point, eliminating potential catastrophe from condensation. Though this only work well in dry climate where dew point is much lower than ambient temp.
Looking at where I live, temp/dew point 27/22C, yeah this won't work well at all.

Or basically in the summer time in North America.

 

[Chrispy_]

And commercially seen, it would be the last product you'd be reviewing of them. And thats the thing. If you really want serious and beefy cooling, consider Phase change or simply put see if you can get hold of a vapochill unit these days.

View attachment 175229

It's basicly a fridge inside your computer, with cooling capacity from 250W up to 400W. We're talking genuine subzero temps of -25 to -45 in idle and around 0 degrees on load. There's no TEC installation you can find that can beat that to be honest. And running on 6GHz clocks with a unit like that is'nt unreal either. Just requires a bit more work like serious insulation. I had a unit like that, trust me it was way more fun then a TEC was. A 100% OC on a Radeon GPU (from 600Mhz to 1240Mhz core), a near 2000Mhz OC on a Sempron 3600+, lol.

Fun times.

I was tempted to save for a Vapochill as a student, but my inexperience with a DIY TEC is what killed my Celeron 300a in the end. Everything worked great but my silicone sealant job around the waterblock wasn't good enough and condensation trickled down into the slot, killing the fabled Abit BE6, the CPU, and my PSU. The good news is that I then had the perfect excuse to try these brand new Athlons that were stomping all over the Pentium III...

 

[Space Lynx]

It will not. Already a i7-10900k overclocked with a good liquid cooling is better in games than any 5000 series AMD

nope its not, only in a minority of games that favor intel already. have a good one

 

[howiec]

Some of you guys need to stop bashing innovative new tech, especially if the tech actually works quite well.

This type of product is clearly aimed at a niche/specific type of customer.
So if you don't think it's for you, that's due to your needs, goals, budget, etc.

E.g. if I were building a top-of-the-line Intel gaming PC right now (rather than waiting for a better next gen Intel or going with a 5900X / 5950X), I'd totally buy the EKWB or CM TEC.

That's simply because I prioritize max gaming performance and I can afford it.

 

[Chrispy_]

Some of you guys need to stop bashing innovative new tech, especially if the tech actually works quite well.

That's simply because I prioritize max gaming performance and I can afford it.

This isn't new tech. It's very old tech that has, up until this era of Intel getting increasingly desperate, been considered a horrific waste of energy for what is typically only a marginal gain.

If performance-per-Watt and performance-per-dollar is completely irrelevant to you then I guess it's one option, but it's certainly not the best option and no matter how much you push ridiculous power levels and cooling you're still not going to beat a 5950X with any sub-230W Intel platform, and that sub-230W number is very important because if you exceed the cooling capacity of a peltier cooler everything goes, quite literally, to hell.

Even if you already have a 10th/11th Gen i9 worth spending €350 on, you have to consider that a €300 5600X will still have a sizeable performance advantage in all but the most core-heavy jobs. Throwing €350 on a losing product when the winning product costs less than that seems like throwing good money after bad - but if you ignore logic and reason and just want to play with a peltier cooler for the heck of it, then sure.

 

[howiec]

This isn't new tech. It's very old tech that has, up until this era of Intel getting increasingly desperate, been considered a horrific waste of energy for what is typically only a marginal gain.

If performance-per-Watt and performance-per-dollar is completely irrelevant to you then I guess it's one option, but it's certainly not the best option and no matter how much you push ridiculous power levels and cooling you're still not going to beat a 5950X with any sub-230W Intel platform, and that sub-230W number is very important because if you exceed the cooling capacity of a peltier cooler everything goes, quite literally, to hell.

Even if you already have a 10th/11th Gen i9 worth spending €350 on, you have to consider that a €300 5600X will still have a sizeable performance advantage in all but the most core-heavy jobs. Throwing €350 on a losing product when the winning product costs less than that seems like throwing good money after bad - but if you ignore logic and reason and just want to play with a peltier cooler for the heck of it, then sure.

Of course it's not a new scientific discovery... come on, you should be able to read into using the "new tech" part loosely. The new tech and innovation includes smarter controller with dew point calculation, better insulation, software assisted control customization, etc.

Again, if you prioritize energy efficiency and low operating costs to sacrifice maximum performance, that's your perogative.

Who said we're saying it's better than 5950X for gaming? Again, generalization vs specifics like mentioning which resolutions primarily being targeted for gaming.

Like I said, this product has it's place and if I were building an Intel top-of-the-line gaming PC right now (you can't even find a 5950X right now), you simply can't beat this in performance aside from Vapochill, etc. that others have mentioned.

Comments like yours are similar in some ways to those that claim 360Hz and higher monitors are a waste and 144Hz is enough for everyone. Stifling innovation is a stupid thing to do.

We'd all still be using DSL 1.5Mbit speeds and be stuck with dual core CPUs still today if everyone had a "marginal performance gain" mindset. You have to push the boundaries and then those high-end solutions get further optimized and then become mainstream with potentially lower costs. This should be obvious....

 

[Chrispy_]

if I were building an Intel top-of-the-line gaming PC

That's my point.

No Intel gaming PC qualifies as top-of-the-line any more. Even for gaming, Intel no longer holds that crown, and throwing a desperate €350 last-gasp peltier at it doesn't change the result.

IMO if you already have a 10th-gen K-series Intel, be happy with it as it is because it's perfectly fine. If you have €350 to blow and you want more performance, but an AMD instead of this petlier cooler.

 

[howiec]

That's my point.

No Intel gaming PC qualifies as top-of-the-line any more. Even for gaming, Intel no longer holds that crown, and throwing a desperate €350 last-gasp peltier at it doesn't change the result.

IMO if you already have a 10th-gen K-series Intel, be happy with it as it is because it's perfectly fine. If you have €350 to blow and you want more performance, but an AMD instead of this petlier cooler.

There's a difference between saying top-of-the-line PC vs Intel top-of-the-line PC (gaming perspective).

.... Also, if you have an Intel system and only want to replace the CPU and cooler, that's a top-of-the-line Intel system. If you don't mind building a mostly or completely brand new AMD system AND waiting for AMD CPU availability (obviously it's sold out and continues to sell out), then of course you could go that route.
Again, now we're talking about comparing individual needs, goals, costs, etc.

Another point about this "tech" being good (yes, for certain users) is that applying it to Zen3 would likely be awesome for gaming too.

 

[Sybaris_Caesar]

Just saw the LTT video few minutes ago. While I cringe at the desperation, I can't deny that this desperation is creating some awesome shit. LTT video says that the cooler is smart? The cooler will take temp reads from the CPU and adjust itself to not condensate. I hope der8auer or Steve from GN can try to hack it on AMD 5000 series.

Anyways exciting stuff.

hehe looks like great minds think alike

 

[howiec]

Case in point for innovation.
Having a TEC product available for Intel CPUs creates an obvious vacuum for an AMD version which hopefully will be filled.

If there was a good TEC product for Zen3, I'd likely upgrade asap for gaming as you can imagine the sky-high performance you'd get vs anything else practically available right now.

 

[Adam Krazispeed]

I find it funny that not only did the turntable but atleast amd took some time to redo their architecture while intel is continuing on this madness path with insane temps/power. Although i guess we would advance in both ways sooner or later so w/e

I find it funny that not only did the table's turn, but at least amd took some time to redo their architecture while intel is continuing on this madness path with insane temps/power. Although i guess we would advance in both ways sooner or later so w/e