• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Coreboot Code Hints at Intel "Alder Lake" Core Configurations

Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
349 (0.08/day)
I simply don't agree with that at all.

Even if you ignore the issues intel is having with 10nm and now 7nm, that doesn't change the fact that Intel's architecture is old and riddled with security problems. That's not a process issue, that's an architecture issue. A lot of intel's historic IPC has been proven to be shortcuts that sidestep security. Cheating, if you want to call it that. Once all the relevant security patches are in place, Intel CPUs have significantly lower IPC than Zen2 right now, and it's STILL riddled with security issues that are being discovered faster than Intel can patch them.

As for the quality of that architecture, Zen2 outperforms Intel's current architecture in terms of IPC. The only reason Intel has a perceived advantage is that when clocked to 5.3GHz, intel is quicker than AMD at 4.7GHz. When you take a clock-locked 4GHz Intel and a 4GHz Zen2, the AMD architecture will win in a majority of applications. Gaming is a notable exception and I believe a big part of that difference is the added latency between cores and the memory controller by having them in physically isolated packages over a seperately-clocked bus (Infinity fabric).

AMD have overtaken Intel in architecture, and they've done it on 1/10th the budget of Intel's R&D department. All that talent Intel may have is pointless and completely academic if it's not being used.
AMD are also on track for a >10% IPC gain with Zen3 and that alone should be enough to prove to anyone that AMD's architecture is vastly superior to Intel's dated, insecure ****lake architecture - there simply won't be enough clockspeed advantage for Intel to make up the difference....

Competition is good. I'll praise Intel when they actually make a clean, new architecture that can provide higher IPC than AMD. As it stands, their architecture is old, stagnant and insecure. Aside from a few reasonably decent increments (like Skylake and Coffee Lake) it's still basically just a tweaked Sandy Bridge as the underlying architecture - and Sandy Bridge is only a few months away from its 10th anniversary now.

To be in such a sorry state with the talent and finances Intel have after a decade of the same architecture is downright inexcusable.
Skylake uArch is 2015. It is based on the same principles introduced with Nehalem in 2008. No sh*t it has been reverse engineered and hackers have found vulnerabilities. It is actually very normal for that to happen. As for vulnerabilities, don't get fooled into thinking AMD for that matter is some sort of perfection. They have a new uArch which hasn't been yet very well documented and it takes time for people to understand what holes it has. Also, AMD has been the underdog for so long that people don't really give attention to their products when researching for vulnerabilities. So saying AMD doesn't have vulnerabilities only because Intel vulnerabilities are not present in AMD is a big logic error.

Now, moving to architecture, current, as far as I know Intel has the best IPC core with Ice Lake, it is 5-10% better than Zen 2, so get your facts straight.
I already told you why Intel cannot actually turn their ideas into products, but you don't seem to get what you read.

As for their state, it is obvious that their management has been utter crap. Look at Krzanich, what a shame he has been. 5 years and he has done nothing. Now Bob which has basically 0 engineering experience. What do you expect other than decisions to increase profits and throw money away on stupid buys?

AMD has its merits, I don't deny that. They have managed to work around their limitations and problems and with little money they created great products. But a big part of AMD success is also down to Intel not being able to compete...

As an idea...Ice Lake was slated for 2017. Tiger Lake for 2018. Alder Lake for 2019. So imagine Alder Lake with its big.Little fighting with Zen 2. Things would have been a lot different.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
7,309 (3.86/day)
System Name Bragging Rights
Processor Atom Z3735F 1.33GHz
Motherboard It has no markings but it's green
Cooling No, it's a 2.2W processor
Memory 2GB DDR3L-1333
Video Card(s) Gen7 Intel HD (4EU @ 311MHz)
Storage 32GB eMMC and 128GB Sandisk Extreme U3
Display(s) 10" IPS 1280x800 60Hz
Case Veddha T2
Audio Device(s) Apparently, yes
Power Supply Samsung 18W 5V fast-charger
Mouse MX Anywhere 2
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys (not Cherry MX at all)
VR HMD Samsung Oddyssey, not that I'd plug it into this though....
Software W10 21H1, barely
Benchmark Scores I once clocked a Celeron-300A to 564MHz on an Abit BE6 and it scored over 9000.
You're going to have to substantiate your claim that the Skylake uarch, and its derivatives, have ingrained scalability and security issues. Sunny Cove is a derivative of Skylake, which is a derivative of Sandy Bridge, and the IPC increase from the original SNB parts to those of today are massive. Not to mention that SKL => SNC is supposedly an 18% IPC improvement again... a uarch that can be competitive for nearly a decade sounds pretty scalable to me.
Scalability comes down the to the monolithic die design - To achieve scalability for servers and higher core counts, Intel switched to a completely different ring bus for cores for the first half of last decade, and then upgraded to a more scalable mesh network when that run out of steam. The desktop parts saw almost none of that and they're still essentially the quad-core design of Sandy bridge scaled up to near breaking point at 8 and 10-core SKUs.

As for security, you only have to go back and look at the 'Watergate' moment for Intel - Spectre and Meltdown. Meltdown targeted intel's complete lack of privilege checking for data in the pipeline, so Intel's performance for out-of-order pipeline execution was good, simply because they weren't doing half of the security and data isolation that a responsible design should be doing. AMD and Arm designs are immune to this because AFAIK they have proper privilege checking on any data in cache or other stores in the pipeline for SMT/Hyperthreading.

Spec-ex attacks, of which Spectre was the first and most painful for Intel also don't affect AMD or Arm as badly. They do target a specific architecture, so that regard Intel is a victim of its own popularity, but at the same time the mitigations AMD put out for the first two variants (back when x/y benchmarking was being tested on the mitigation performance impacts) had almost no performance loss on AMD (1-2%) Whilst Intel was seeing double-digit losses from some applications. Without more experience and understanding of exactly how the patches work, I can only guess that Intel had more holes to patch than AMD, which is why they only bothered with some of the exploits (leaving Microsoft to fill in the gaps) and even then the firmware patches they did write offended the Linux crowd - which mattered a lot because a lot of the datacenters hit worst by Spectre were running linux servers on Intel.

Now, moving to architecture, current, as far as I know Intel has the best IPC core with Ice Lake, it is 5-10% better than Zen 2, so get your facts straight.

Do you have an apples-to-apples article I can read for that? I'm not doubting you've read that somewhere but right now there's no direct comparison because Intel haven't managed to get Ice Lake onto desktop. Renoir would be the closest match to Ice Lake as a monolithic die using Zen2 but a big part of Ice Lake was larger caches and Renoir is specifically a cut-down version of Zen2 with smaller caches to keep production costs relevant to the target market. Renoir has a quarter the cache of Mattise, so it's far more reliant on RAM speeds yet is normally paired with DDR4-3200 instead of the LPDDR4X that usually goes with the i7-1065G7. Additionally, I've not seen any fixed-clock tests of Ice Lake as they are all mostly mainstream laptop parts with notoriously useless OEM BIOSes when it comes to benchmarking and tweaking.

If you have a valid link please share, I want to see (real world) how Sunny Cove is doing but there's simply no straight-up comparison I've found that can be extrapolated to how well it would fare on a desktop or server-scale part.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,238 (0.75/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Logitech G613
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
Scalability comes down the to the monolithic die design - To achieve scalability for servers and higher core counts, Intel switched to a completely different ring bus for cores for the first half of last decade, and then upgraded to a more scalable mesh network when that run out of steam. The desktop parts saw almost none of that and they're still essentially the quad-core design of Sandy bridge scaled up to near breaking point at 8 and 10-core SKUs.

I don't see any indication that core interconnect is a limiting factor.

As for security, you only have to go back and look at the 'Watergate' moment for Intel - Spectre and Meltdown. Meltdown targeted intel's complete lack of privilege checking for data in the pipeline, so Intel's performance for out-of-order pipeline execution was good, simply because they weren't doing half of the security and data isolation that a responsible design should be doing. AMD and Arm designs are immune to this because AFAIK they have proper privilege checking on any data in cache or other stores in the pipeline for SMT/Hyperthreading.

Spec-ex attacks, of which Spectre was the first and most painful for Intel also don't affect AMD or Arm as badly. They do target a specific architecture, so that regard Intel is a victim of its own popularity, but at the same time the mitigations AMD put out for the first two variants (back when x/y benchmarking was being tested on the mitigation performance impacts) had almost no performance loss on AMD (1-2%) Whilst Intel was seeing double-digit losses from some applications. Without more experience and understanding of exactly how the patches work, I can only guess that Intel had more holes to patch than AMD, which is why they only bothered with some of the exploits (leaving Microsoft to fill in the gaps) and even then the firmware patches they did write offended the Linux crowd - which mattered a lot because a lot of the datacenters hit worst by Spectre were running linux servers on Intel.

I would imagine by now that all the Spectre and Meltdown mitigations have been implemented in the latest hardware, i.e. ICL, so there really isn't much point in talking about them anymore.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
3,481 (1.32/day)
Processor R5 5600X
Motherboard ASUS ROG STRIX B550-I GAMING
Cooling Alpenföhn Black Ridge
Memory 2*16GB DDR4-2666 VLP @3800
Video Card(s) EVGA Geforce RTX 3080 XC3
Storage 1TB Samsung 970 Pro, 2TB Intel 660p
Display(s) ASUS PG279Q, Eizo EV2736W
Case Dan Cases A4-SFX
Power Supply Corsair SF600
Mouse Corsair Ironclaw Wireless RGB
Keyboard Corsair K60
VR HMD HTC Vive
Scalability comes down the to the monolithic die design - To achieve scalability for servers and higher core counts, Intel switched to a completely different ring bus for cores for the first half of last decade, and then upgraded to a more scalable mesh network when that run out of steam. The desktop parts saw almost none of that and they're still essentially the quad-core design of Sandy bridge scaled up to near breaking point at 8 and 10-core SKUs.
Monolithic vs chiplet is entirely different argument for scalability, at least from architecture side of things. Chiplet brings better possible yields and more possible cores at the cost of having to integrate the parts over interconnect that goes in and out of die. Ringbus so far seems better suited for desktop and especially gaming purposes compared to mesh.

As for security, you only have to go back and look at the 'Watergate' moment for Intel - Spectre and Meltdown. Meltdown targeted intel's complete lack of privilege checking for data in the pipeline, so Intel's performance for out-of-order pipeline execution was good, simply because they weren't doing half of the security and data isolation that a responsible design should be doing. AMD and Arm designs are immune to this because AFAIK they have proper privilege checking on any data in cache or other stores in the pipeline for SMT/Hyperthreading.
While Meltdown is a bug, it is not a complete lack of privilege checking. The attack vector for the entire Spectre family is more complex than that. Also, certain ARM designs are vulnerable to Meltdown.
The performance vs security is an interesting argument but I cannot see this being the case, architecturally speaking. And CPUs with Meltdown fix in hardware have not been tested to be slower so that does not seem to be the case in reality either.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
7,309 (3.86/day)
System Name Bragging Rights
Processor Atom Z3735F 1.33GHz
Motherboard It has no markings but it's green
Cooling No, it's a 2.2W processor
Memory 2GB DDR3L-1333
Video Card(s) Gen7 Intel HD (4EU @ 311MHz)
Storage 32GB eMMC and 128GB Sandisk Extreme U3
Display(s) 10" IPS 1280x800 60Hz
Case Veddha T2
Audio Device(s) Apparently, yes
Power Supply Samsung 18W 5V fast-charger
Mouse MX Anywhere 2
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys (not Cherry MX at all)
VR HMD Samsung Oddyssey, not that I'd plug it into this though....
Software W10 21H1, barely
Benchmark Scores I once clocked a Celeron-300A to 564MHz on an Abit BE6 and it scored over 9000.
I would imagine by now that all the Spectre and Meltdown mitigations have been implemented in the latest hardware, i.e. ICL, so there really isn't much point in talking about them anymore.

They're mostly fixed in hardware for ICL but not completely still.

Also, it's important to remember that the hardware fix means that you're no longer vulnerable even with unpatched firmware/OS but the performance penalties will still be there until Intel actually redesigns the branch prediction from the ground up for Spec-ex attacks.

Their existing architecture has been cracked and these workarounds (be it hardware or software) are basically just to turn off the bits of the architecture that have found to be exploitable. The peformance benefit of those disabled things is not recuperated, it is lost forever to Intel until they create a whole new architecture from the ground up - buying them a few years of safety until the exploiters get experience reverse-engineering and poking it. This is probably one of the reasons Ryzen patches have less of an impact, because it's a much newer design and there's less known about potential attack vectors against it still. I'm sure 1st Gen Ryzen will be less secure in 2025 than it is today, but AMD will not still be recycling 1st Gen Ryzen architecture in 2025 either, unlike Intel with their "Core" microarchitecture which although improved over the last decade, is something that the hackers have been poking at for almost a decade.

Anyway, in looking for a more concrete answer to you, I've discovered (to my dismay) that Sunny Cove isn't much of a brand new architecture redesign. It's still something like 85% Skylake and very much just a rebalancing of the ratios of various Skylake-era subcomponents. It's certainly not the Phenon > Bulldozer > Zen change over the last decade that effectively keeps the hackers at bay (and one reason AMD is on it's third architecture this decade is because the first one was already a decade old in 2010 and the second one was too terrible to carry on with!)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.30/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
It's interesting that as Apple leaves Intel to go with big.LITTLE with its Apple Silicon chips, Intel is shifting to big.LITTLE as well. People seem pretty intrigued by the possibilities of Apple Silicon, or at least no one seems to be writing it off as a lost cause already just because it's going to be big.LITTLE. Obviously Apple's execution has been a lot better than Intel's in the last few years so it's fair Apple gets the benefit of the doubt while Intel very much needs to prove it can pull another rabbit out of its hat like Core. I guess we will see if Intel can execute.
No one!, I have for years , things are going south IMHO.
Apple wrote themselves off many times in my eyes.

And this could write Intel chips off for me.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2017
Messages
184 (0.07/day)
System Name Linotosh
Processor Dual 800mhz G4
Cooling Air
Memory 1.5 GB
I don't think they can run simultaneously. The main idea with the small cores is, when full blown cores are not needed for light tasks the small cores take over to save power.
It seems like a missed opportunity if that is the case. Keeping the low powered cores running for background processes that don't need tomhe big cores and then firing up the big cores for processes that need the power would be great on a desktop where power budgets are significantly higher would theoretically offer significantly better performance. On a laptop, sure, I can see the benefit, but on the desktop I'd rather have something that can ramp up the frequency of the cores and run them all simultaneously.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
3,481 (1.32/day)
Processor R5 5600X
Motherboard ASUS ROG STRIX B550-I GAMING
Cooling Alpenföhn Black Ridge
Memory 2*16GB DDR4-2666 VLP @3800
Video Card(s) EVGA Geforce RTX 3080 XC3
Storage 1TB Samsung 970 Pro, 2TB Intel 660p
Display(s) ASUS PG279Q, Eizo EV2736W
Case Dan Cases A4-SFX
Power Supply Corsair SF600
Mouse Corsair Ironclaw Wireless RGB
Keyboard Corsair K60
VR HMD HTC Vive
Why would they not run simultaneously? Pretty sure they can, in actual usage power management configuration is probably what will throttle some cores down to conserve power. This is what happens to Lakefield cores - they are running simultaneously but at a (very) low frequency which is a power management thing.
 
Joined
Mar 8, 2018
Messages
30 (0.01/day)
Location
Italy
System Name HAL9000
Processor Intel Core I7 2600K
Motherboard ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Cooling Scythe Mugen 3
Memory Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 4x4GB
Video Card(s) ASUS Geforce GTX560Ti DirectCU II
Storage Seagate Barracuda 750GB
Display(s) ASUS VW248H
Case Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus
Audio Device(s) Logitech S220
Power Supply Seasonic M12II 620 EVO
Mouse Logitech G300
Keyboard Logitech K200
Software Windows 7 Professional 64bit
In regards to small cores, what is exactly your point? Tremont has Ivy bridge level of IPC. Zen 1 has Ivy bridge - haswell level of IPC.
If Tremont has IPC comparable to Ivy, this doesn't mean the core is as phat as Skylake...
You can search for die shots, but 4 tremont cores are just a bit more than 1 sunny cove core in die size, so I would estimate 1 tremont core to be 1 third of a skylake core. Given it has ivy bridge level of IPC, that is very impressive.

From what i remember intel Silvermount and AMD Jaguar were both in Conroe IPC territory that was good enough to me.
Conroe to Ivy Bridge is a big jump, do you have any analysis to show me about that? I'm genuinely curious.
 
Top