General Cryptocoin Discussion

[lexluthermiester]

As many threads seem to get side-tracked with general discussion about cryptocoin, we need a thread where discussion about the subject that can meander from any one aspect as the users need it too.

This is a general discussion about cryptocoin and all topics about this subject are welcome. Remember folks, forum rules still apply, so lets be friendly even if we disagree, because we ALL know there will be disagreements.

To continue;

i am looking a bit shorter term than you lex..

And that might be the main reason why you conflict with many of us other users. We are taking a look at the big picture here, not just the short-term. May I suggest that you start looking at both scales to get a wider view of the cryptocoin market? Only an observation and suggestion, not meant to be an attack..

 

[trog100]

As many threads seem to get side-tracked with general discussion about cryptocoin, we need a thread where discussion about the subject that can meander from any one aspect as the users need it too.

Remember folks, forum rules still apply, so lets be friendly even if we disagree, because we ALL know there will be disagreements.

To continue;

And that might be the main reason why you conflict with many of us other users. We are taking a look at the big picture where , not just the short-term. May I suggest that you start looking at both scales to get a wider view of the cryptocoin market? Only an observation and suggestion, not meant to be an attack..

lex.. i look at all time scales and many youtuber comments.. .. i am retired with time on my hands so i can.. i form my own opinions based on my own research..

look back at my comments and opinions thru this thread.. i aint been far wrong..

you maybe not attacking but you are being somewhat condescending.. as crypto experts go i recon i am one.. and dont mind sticking my neck out and saying so... he he

i basically believe that long term bitcoin will reach some pretty high figures.. it will have some battles to fight along the way..


trog

 

[lexluthermiester]

lex.. i look at all time scales

You did say that you are looking at the short term... So which is it?

you maybe not attacking but you are being somewhat condescending..

You know me well enough to know if I were being condescending you would have no doubts of it. So let's let that go..

Ok, so I'm looking at this;

Bitcoin Price Today - BTC to US dollar Live - Crypto | Coinranking

View the Bitcoin (BTC) price live in US dollar (USD). Today's value and price history. Discover info about market cap, trading volume and supply.

coinranking.com

Looking at the 30day, 3 month, 1 year and 5 year numbers and seeing that the trend is still nose down. It might be leveling off, as you suggest, or it might be a slight pause before another dip, which has happened before, recently.

Then we look at this;

Ethereum Price Today - ETH to US dollar Live - Crypto | Coinranking

View the Ethereum (ETH) price live in US dollar (USD). Today's value and price history. Discover info about market cap, trading volume and supply.

coinranking.com

And the decline trend stands out a bit more.

 

[AusWolf]

I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:

• Why is cryptocurrency good?
• Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
• Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable). What are cryptocurrencies backed by?
• How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?
• Still, the biggest question is: WHY IS IT LEGAL?

 

[lexluthermiester]

This is a comment that fits better in this thread.

CPB-directeur: Nederland moet bitcoin en andere cryptovaluta verbieden

De ultieme stap is volgens Pieter Hasekamp een totaalverbod op productie, handel en bezit van cryptomunten.

nos.nl

Dutch want a ban on crypto / btc in general. Good movement. Primarily due to the fact the amount of power BTC on it's own requires.

Might just happen too. Cryptocoin has been a disruption and can potentially be a further serious threat to standard currency systems.

Why is cryptocurrency good?

Excellent question!

Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?

Also good question.

Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable).

Not in North America it's not. The USA, Canada and Mexico got off the Gold standard many decades ago.

What are cryptocurrencies backed by?

Nothing, because they are literally nothing.

How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?

Now THAT is an amusing postulation!

 

[Papahyooie]

I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:

• Why is cryptocurrency good?
• Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
• Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable). What are cryptocurrencies backed by?
• How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?
• Still, the biggest question is: WHY IS IT LEGAL?

1. Freedom.
2. Because they make money on it too.
3.No, it's not. That's a myth. There is not a single country that has a gold-backed currency today. Crypto is backed (albeit poorly sometimes) by confidence and sentiment, same as the US dollar or any other modern currency. The US dollar at least also is backed by violence and threat of violence. So I guess that counts for something...
4. Here's a primer in the subject. https://www.investopedia.com/tech/how-does-bitcoin-mining-work/
5. Because, it turns out, most people want to be able to do what they want without interference, as long as it doesn't hurt others. Of course one could argue that the energy consumption is damaging, but in that case, make it illegal to mine on power derived from fossil fuels or something. If I power my farm with solar for instance, it harms nobody. So it doesn't make any sense to ban it outright.

At the end of the day, I will never understand people that want to make something illegal without understanding it, or just because they don't like it.

Also, as a side note, making it illegal will not make it go away. Just ask drugs and guns.

 

[Outback Bronze]

cryptocoin

What's that?

Isn't it called Crypto Currency? Its Legal Tender now.

 

[AusWolf]

1. Freedom.
2. Because they make money on it too.
3.No, it's not. That's a myth. There is not a single country that has a gold-backed currency today. Crypto is backed (albeit poorly sometimes) by confidence and sentiment, same as the US dollar or any other modern currency. The US dollar at least also is backed by violence and threat of violence. So I guess that counts for something...
4. Here's a primer in the subject. https://www.investopedia.com/tech/how-does-bitcoin-mining-work/
5. Because, it turns out, most people want to be able to do what they want without interference, as long as it doesn't hurt others. Of course one could argue that the energy consumption is damaging, but in that case, make it illegal to mine on power derived from fossil fuels or something. If I power my farm with solar for instance, it harms nobody. So it doesn't make any sense to ban it outright.

At the end of the day, I will never understand people that want to make something illegal without understanding it, or just because they don't like it.

Also, as a side note, making it illegal will not make it go away. Just ask drugs and guns.

1. Freedom of what?
2. I could have thought so.
3. Fair enough. Still, national currencies are accepted as a method of payment. Crypto is not, so where is any guarantee of value?
4. I'll read it when I have a bit of time, thanks.
5. But it hurts others. It's not just the energy usage. Crypto mining contributes to the chip shortage that isn't only experienced by gamers, but for example by car manufacturers too. Also, what will happen with the millions of graphics cards when the crypto boom has ended? Or what will happen when the next generation of graphics cards comes out? Will they be bought up by crypto miners again? My problem is that crypto farmers act like they rule the whole (GPU) world, when in fact, they're just a bunch of graphics card thieves, nobodies who want to get rich by doing nothing, not contributing to society in any way. That's why it should be illegal in my opinion.

 

[64K]

I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:

• Why is cryptocurrency good?
• Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
• Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable). What are cryptocurrencies backed by?
• How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?
• Still, the biggest question is: WHY IS IT LEGAL?

What we call currency is Fiat. It isn't backed by anything of value. Especially not something of real and lasting value such as gold. People believe that Fiat is valuable so it is valuable. Crypto is just another Fiat. As long as some people believe it has value then it has value.

 

[trog100]

just a bitcoin general comment.. the important thing is.. was 64K the current cycle peak or was it just a normal mid cycle crypto correction..

if it was the cycle peak it means downwards from here on in until the next cycle..

i think a normal cycle correction helped along by the whales trying to drive out the greedy over leveraged traders and the weaker players..

i think bitcoin has much higher to go during this cycle.. but i could be wrong its too early to say ether way for sure..

trog

 

[Papahyooie]

1. Freedom of what?
2. I could have thought so.
3. Fair enough. Still, national currencies are accepted as a method of payment. Crypto is not, so where is any guarantee of value?
4. I'll read it when I have a bit of time, thanks.
5. But it hurts others. It's not just the energy usage. Crypto mining contributes to the chip shortage that isn't only experienced by gamers, but for example by car manufacturers too. Also, what will happen with the millions of graphics cards when the crypto boom has ended? Or what will happen when the next generation of graphics cards comes out? Will they be bought up by crypto miners again? My problem is that crypto farmers act like they rule the whole (GPU) world, when in fact, they're just a bunch of graphics card thieves, nobodies who want to get rich by doing nothing, not contributing to society in any way. That's why it should be illegal in my opinion.

1. Freedom. In general. Crypto is good for freedom.
2. Indeed.
3. "Guarantee of value" is the same as "backing." Both crypto and national currencies are backed by confidence in something. In the USD, it's faith that the US will continue to exist, and be an effective and potent government. In crypto, it's faith that it will be able to be sold for a higher price at the moment. This is the same as any stock trading one might do. Eventually, the hope is that you will be able to use crypto the same as any other currency. That's not reality yet, but the list of vendors who accept it for payment is growing. You can buy graphics cards with crypto right now on Newegg, and you'll even get a discount for it!
4. Good, I'm glad!
5. I realize you're mad about not being able to get a graphics card. But that is not you being "harmed" by crypto. To be harmed, you would have to have a right to those cards in the first place, and you don't. The manufacturer owns them, and they can sell them to whomever they please, at whatever price they please. I could just as easily say that you buying graphics cards for gaming harms me as a miner. Both statements are disingenuous, because neither of us have a right to graphics cards we haven't bought yet.

 

[AusWolf]

1. Freedom. In general. Crypto is good for freedom.
2. Indeed.
3. "Guarantee of value" is the same as "backing." Both crypto and national currencies are backed by confidence in something. In the USD, it's faith that the US will continue to exist, and be an effective and potent government. In crypto, it's faith that it will be able to be sold for a higher price at the moment. This is the same as any stock trading one might do. Eventually, the hope is that you will be able to use crypto the same as any other currency. That's not reality yet, but the list of vendors who accept it for payment is growing. You can buy graphics cards with crypto right now on Newegg, and you'll even get a discount for it!
4. Good, I'm glad!
5. I realize you're mad about not being able to get a graphics card. But that is not you being "harmed" by crypto. To be harmed, you would have to have a right to those cards in the first place, and you don't. The manufacturer owns them, and they can sell them to whomever they please, at whatever price they please. I could just as easily say that you buying graphics cards for gaming harms me as a miner. Both statements are disingenuous, because neither of us have a right to graphics cards we haven't bought yet.

1. There's no such thing as freedom in general. Only freedom to do something.
3. In my point of view, national currency is backed by the thought that I will be able to buy a loaf of bread with it at the corner shop either today, or tomorrow, or later. Its value might change, but the possibility is always there. I also trust that there is a finite amount of British Pounds on the planet, and if I work hard to get some, it will have some value because it's finite. Where is the limit of the amount of crypto "coin" that exists? How do I know that my coin is actually worth something other than the momentary exchange value?
5. That is true up to an extent. A gamer needs one graphics card. A miner needs hundreds. Graphics cards have traditionally been tools of entertainment, hobbies, but now people are buying up all of them to make money that has never existed. When the boom is over, or the next generation of graphics cards comes out, these ones will be e-waste. This hurts the economy on so many levels.

 

[birdie]

I've always had some questions about the topic that have never been answered for some reason:

• Why is cryptocurrency good?
• Why isn't it banned by every government on the planet?
• Most money on the planet is backed by gold (or some other valuable). What are cryptocurrencies backed by?
• How do you make money by running calculations on your PC, and how is it any different from "traditional" money laundering?
• Still, the biggest question is: WHY IS IT LEGAL?

• It's not owned and controlled by dirty politicians.
• Because you're stupid because in order to ban it you have to stop the Internet from working.
• Money was last backed by money over half a century ago. Nowadays, it's backed by promises.
• This is such an asinine statement I have nothing to add. BTW read this: The majority of cryptocurrency is not used for criminal activity. According to an excerpt from Chainalysis’ 2021 report, in 2019, criminal activity represented 2.1% of all cryptocurrency transaction volume (roughly $21.4 billion worth of transfers). According to the UN, it is estimated that between 2% and 5% of global GDP ($1.6 to $4 trillion) annually is connected with money laundering and illicit activity.
• Why governments are legal? People have made them so. Why crypto is legal? Again people have entrusted it.

 

[AusWolf]

• It's not owned and controlled by dirty politicians.

Instead, it is owned by dirty mining farmers and businessmen who can get rich just as easily as politicians could at the dawn of politics.

• Because you're stupid because in order to ban it you have to stop the Internet from working.

Then how can China ban Youtube, Steam, Facebook and other online services? National firewall? Easy.

• Money was last backed by money over half a century ago. Nowadays, it's backed by promises.

At least "real" money has that (promises). Crypto does not.

• Why governments are legal? People have made them so. Why crypto is legal? Again people have entrusted it.

At least governments rely on people doing their jobs and paying taxes, so there is some vague mutuality in that relationship (even if its trustworthiness is arguable). But that brings me to another question: what makes people trust crypto?

 

[birdie]

Instead, it is owned by dirty mining farmers and businessmen who can get rich just as easily as politicians could at the dawn of politics.


Then how can China ban Youtube, Steam, Facebook and other online services? National firewall? Easy.


At least "real" money has that (promises). Crypto does not.


At least governments rely on people doing their jobs and paying taxes, so there is some vague mutuality in that relationship (even if its trustworthiness is arguable). But that brings me to another question: what makes people trust crypto?

God, can you stop embarrassing yourself?

• Large miners do not control the flow of money in crypto. They merely mint it.
• Has China been able to ban the circulation of any of the cryptos? The f* you're giving me examples of some utter crap?
• So, no argument at all. OK.
• You kinda proved my own point, thanks.

People trust crypto because it works. As soon as you find an exploit for any of the chains and start e.g. minting crypto without actually computing it or find a way to double spend, trust will be (temporary) broken until developers find a way to fix it. So far such accidents have been exceedingly rare.

You cannot game math. You can do whatever you want with politicians and law given you have enough money or/and sway.

I do not say I condone crypto but I do not contempt it.

 

[Papahyooie]

1. There's no such thing as freedom in general. Only freedom to do something.
3. In my point of view, national currency is backed by the thought that I will be able to buy a loaf of bread with it at the corner shop either today, or tomorrow, or later. Its value might change, but the possibility is always there. I also trust that there is a finite amount of British Pounds on the planet, and if I work hard to get some, it will have some value because it's finite. Where is the limit of the amount of crypto "coin" that exists? How do I know that my coin is actually worth something other than the momentary exchange value?
5. That is true up to an extent. A gamer needs one graphics card. A miner needs hundreds. Graphics cards have traditionally been tools of entertainment, hobbies, but now people are buying up all of them to make money that has never existed. When the boom is over, or the next generation of graphics cards comes out, these ones will be e-waste. This hurts the economy on so many levels.

1. Freedom, in general. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you. The fact that you have indicated that you think your government has some sort of mutual agreement with you, tells me that I won't be able to convince you anyway.

3. There are not a finite amount of BP or USD in the world. Your government can, has, and will print/mint more. It is not connected to gold, or anything else, and it hasn't been since the 70s. Conversely, some cryptos ARE finite. Bitcoin is a good example. There can only be a specific amount of Bitcoins because a bitcoin every "bitcoin" is assigned a mathematical number. The algorithm used to create them dictates that only so many are possible. Imagine, if you will, that I have a program that can count to 100. It can't count any higher, because that's all it's programmed to do. Then I assign a "PapahyooieCoin" to each number that it counts. There will only ever be 100 PapahyooieCoins. Bitcoin is the same way. This is VASTLY oversimplifying things, but it's just to illustrate. If you value scarcity and finite-ness, crypto is where you want to be, not GBP or USD. Neither of those are limited. Your government can print/mint more at any time, and do all the time.

5. It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is, you don't have a right to tell me how many graphics cards I can buy, or what I can do with them. E-waste is a problem, sure. But I could make the argument that you playing your silly games (I'm being facetious here, not serious) is far less important than maintaining a global payment network that allows people in despotic countries to do commerce on a global scale, thereby increasing their possibility of collecting more value, increasing their quality of life despite their government's hindrance, and eventually gaining a more free society. In that light, YOU are the one creating e-waste by doing something so frivolous as playing games with hardware that could be put to better, more noble use.

But I won't say that, because you're free to do as you wish with your own hardware that you bought with your own labor. See how that works?

 

[trog100]

just a fiat comment.. fiat is not finite.. governments can print as much of it as they want and they are doing..

and as regards taxation.. its not needed to pay for things they simply create more money to do that.. taxation is used to re-distribute wealth.. to punish some and reward others all at government whim..

trog

 

[R-T-B]

Then how can China ban Youtube, Steam, Facebook and other online services? National firewall? Easy.

Not very well in practice, and those are centralized services, bitcoin is decentralized. Big difference.

Nothing, because they are literally nothing.

This is actually incorrect. Exchanges wouldn't function if this was true.

They are backed by their own public image and likewise mass interest/involvement of people. Which is why herd mechanics like a Musk tweet hold so much sway right now.

 

[trog100]

i have always tried to avoid the rightness or wrongness of bitcoin.. i got into it because i fancied building a mining machine.. call it an interest in PC hardware..

i follow what is going on because i now have money in it.. by my standards quite a lot of money..

i am not entirely sure what this thread is about but i dont think i will get involved in the ethical side of things..

trog

 

[AusWolf]

God, can you stop embarrassing yourself?

Sorry for asking questions. I thought that's what an online forum was for.

• So, no argument at all. OK.

Again, I'm not arguing. I'm trying to understand why and how people get to trust a decentralised monetary unit that you cannot even buy a loaf of bread for.

• You kinda proved my own point, thanks.

I didn't prove anything. The way I said it: "At least governments rely on people doing their jobs and paying taxes, so there is some vague mutuality in that relationship (even if its trustworthiness is arguable). But that brings me to another question: what makes people trust crypto?" A vague mutuality with arguable trustworthiness is better than nothing. Maybe I should rephrase the question. If I wanted to get into crypto as a newcomer, what could convince me to trust the system?

1. Freedom, in general. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you. The fact that you have indicated that you think your government has some sort of mutual agreement with you, tells me that I won't be able to convince you anyway.

There isn't such a thing. You're free to walk in the park, or buy some beer, you're also free to buy and maintain a fleet of Ferraris if you have enough money for it, but you're not free to steal or kill. Or maybe you are if you accept the legal consequences. You're always bound by at least your country's laws. No amount of virtual money can change that.

3. There are not a finite amount of BP or USD in the world. Your government can, has, and will print/mint more. It is not connected to gold, or anything else, and it hasn't been since the 70s. Conversely, some cryptos ARE finite. Bitcoin is a good example. There can only be a specific amount of Bitcoins because a bitcoin every "bitcoin" is assigned a mathematical number. The algorithm used to create them dictates that only so many are possible. Imagine, if you will, that I have a program that can count to 100. It can't count any higher, because that's all it's programmed to do. Then I assign a "PapahyooieCoin" to each number that it counts. There will only ever be 100 PapahyooieCoins. Bitcoin is the same way. This is VASTLY oversimplifying things, but it's just to illustrate. If you value scarcity and finite-ness, crypto is where you want to be, not GBP or USD. Neither of those are limited. Your government can print/mint more at any time, and do all the time.

The amount is finite at any given time. Governments are free to print more, but doing so devalues the currency. If it can't be done in crypto, it's nice, but how can a regular Joe trust that it really can't and won't be done in the future?

5. It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is, you don't have a right to tell me how many graphics cards I can buy, or what I can do with them. E-waste is a problem, sure. But I could make the argument that you playing your silly games (I'm being facetious here, not serious) is far less important than maintaining a global payment network that allows people in despotic countries to do commerce on a global scale, thereby increasing their possibility of collecting more value, increasing their quality of life despite their government's hindrance, and eventually gaining a more free society. In that light, YOU are the one creating e-waste by doing something so frivolous as playing games with hardware that could be put to better, more noble use.

That is a way to see things, but what if for example cars become tools for ABC coin mining (crude example, but why not)? I buy all the cars that I want, and you're left with nothing. Because I can. You want to visit relatives? Use a train. Want to go to work? Use the bus or walk. Not my problem. See?

 

[Papahyooie]

There isn't such a thing. You're free to walk in the park, or buy some beer, you're also free to buy and maintain a fleet of Ferraris if you have enough money for it, but you're not free to steal or kill. Or maybe you are if you accept the legal consequences. You're always bound by at least your country's laws. No amount of virtual money can change that.


The amount is finite at any given time. Governments are free to print more, but doing so devalues the currency. If it can't be done in crypto, it's nice, but how can a regular Joe trust that it really can't and won't be done in the future?


That is a way to see things, but what if for example cars become tools for ABC coin mining (crude example, but why not)? I buy all the cars that I want, and you're left with nothing. Because I can. You want to visit relatives? Use a train. Want to go to work? Use the bus or walk. Not my problem. See?

I think we're needlessly tripping over the phrase "in general." Crypto is good for freedom of any sort, is what I mean. It has some specific uses that aid in creating a more free society, sure. But it's also just good for freedom as an idea. For some of us, freedom is not a means, but an end. I also think we don't agree on the meaning of freedom in the first place, so here. Read this.

Non-aggression principle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't know about GBP, but the US is literally printing money constantly, every second of every day. And GBP's value is as inextricably tied to the USD as our countries' economies are, so I can't imagine that bodes well for you either.
As for crypto, a regular joe can learn about how crypto works. Once he has educated himself, and understands the algorithms involved, he will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that BTC is finite. If Joe doesn't want to educate himself, then he'll just have to take my word for it that it's mathematically impossible to create more BTC than the maximum. (Note, this does not apply to ALL cryptocurrencies. Some are infinitely mintable.)
Or, joe can refuse to either educate himself or take my word for it, and just live his life in a state of being wrong. Doesn't hurt me.

As for the last part about cars, and you buying all of them up... Yep. Now you've got the picture!

 

[lexluthermiester]

that BTC is finite.

True!

Note, this does not apply to ALL cryptocurrencies. Some are infinitely mintable.

Also true!

Those two points are where most people have a great deal of confusion and lack of understanding.

Any cryptocoin that has a finite total will experience diminishing returns has more of it is discovered. Cryptocoin that has an unlimited store of total can be continuously mined, but ultimately has little value as it is unlimited.

 

[Papahyooie]

True!

Also true!

Those two point are where most people have a great deal of confusion and lack of understanding.

Any cryptocoin that has a finite total will experience diminishing returns has more of it is discovered. Cryptocoin that has an unlimited store of total can be continuously mined, but ultimately has little value as it is unlimited.

I think it's very important to note though, that the "diminishing returns" you're referring to only apply to MINERS, not the currency itself. There is nothing bad about being finite for those that hold it.

I'd also add that cryptos that are unlimited aren't necessarily lacking in value. At least not inherently. After all... Every government backed currency in the world is also infinite, and they still maintain value.

 

[lexluthermiester]

After all... Every government backed currency in the world is also infinite, and they still maintain value.

Good point.

 

[trog100]

be real chaps as the US printing machines go brrrrr the value of each dollar created becomes less... this is a fact with no way around it..

the whole idea of bitcoin is to step outside of this goveremnt and banking created chaos.. become your own bank and take control of your own money..

will it work.. maybe.. maybe not..

trog