General Cryptocoin Discussion

[AusWolf]

You are aware that miners also use a lot of older GPU's, no?

Some of them, perhaps. That doesn't change what I said. The bigger, wealthier farms will get rid of their old, used GPUs to mine even more money with the new ones (they would be stupid not to).

RX470's are still used to mine RVN and other coins.

Edit: You know that the huge majority of crypto lies in Bitcoin and Ethereum, right?

 

[sepheronx]

Some of them, perhaps. That doesn't change what I said. The bigger, wealthier farms will get rid of their old, used GPUs to mine even more money with the new ones (they would be stupid not to).

A ton of them are buying those overpriced, lousy mining GPU's. I know 3 of them who have a ton of them still (the mining companies the most do that).

In asia it may be a different case. I have seen in Iran, China, Russian company and Vietnamese internet cafe's buying a ton of these new GPU's for their mining farms as they did it as a double wammy - new GPU's so when they can re-open for their machines, and to mine while they cant be opened due to covid. Read a few of them actually saying it saved their business.

So it is true there would be many who buy the new stuff. But also integrate the old ones. The GPU's which are totally useless are things like the 980ti and older (980ti being way too power hungry) and R9 390x and older. Even then, I see R9 390X's being introduced as I was able to mine with that. Just not enough to justify its use. Anything newer than those though, I still see all too common. AND, then there is the fact that people are selling their older mined GPU's to desperate gamers these days. I think it was @trog100 who recently sold his 1070's.

I presume those who throw a ton of them away, are the dead GPU's.

 

[AusWolf]

A ton of them are buying those overpriced, lousy mining GPU's. I know 3 of them who have a ton of them still (the mining companies the most do that).

In asia it may be a different case. I have seen in Iran, China, Russian company and Vietnamese internet cafe's buying a ton of these new GPU's for their mining farms as they did it as a double wammy - new GPU's so when they can re-open for their machines, and to mine while they cant be opened due to covid. Read a few of them actually saying it saved their business.

So it is true there would be many who buy the new stuff. But also integrate the old ones. The GPU's which are totally useless are things like the 980ti and older (980ti being way too power hungry) and R9 390x and older. Even then, I see R9 390X's being introduced as I was able to mine with that. Just not enough to justify its use. Anything newer than those though, I still see all too common. AND, then there is the fact that people are selling their older mined GPU's to desperate gamers these days. I think it was @trog100 who recently sold his 1070's.

I presume those who throw a ton of them away, are the dead GPU's.

Theoretically speaking: if you have a mining farm of 1,000 RTX 3090s, and the 4090 comes out that can mine more with double efficiency, you'll want to swap for the newer architecture, won't you? Selling thousands of GPUs to individuals (or businesses?) isn't something the current market is accustomed to. nvidia is making more money than ever making GPUs, most of which never see store shelves and run 24/7 until they're dead.

Obviously, most miners don't want old, power hungry GPUs. They only use them if they have them already, or have no option to use anything else. But those miners aren't the ones who operate farms with thousands of GPUs, so they're not the bulk of the problem here.

True, some people are desperate for those half-dead, overmined graphics cards just to be able to play games. As for me, I wouldn't even poke them with a stick.

 

[sepheronx]

Theoretically speaking: if you have a mining farm of 1,000 RTX 3090s, and the 4090 comes out that can mine more with double efficiency, you'll want to swap for the newer architecture, won't you? Selling thousands of GPUs to individuals (or businesses?) isn't something the current market is accustomed to. nvidia is making more money than ever making GPUs, most of which never see store shelves and run 24/7 until they're dead.

Obviously, most miners don't want old, power hungry GPUs. They only use them if they have them already, or have no option to use anything else. But those miners aren't the ones who operate farms with thousands of GPUs, so they're not the bulk of the problem here.

True, some people are desperate for those half-dead, overmined graphics cards just to be able to play games. As for me, I wouldn't even poke them with a stick.

That isn't usually how it works. They tend to keep them till they are no longer profitable. It is always a calculation between cost for electricity vs profit. Once the ROI on those GPU's happen, then they are just looking at electricity prices. As long as profit exists, they tend to keep. But the only time there is a massive dump is: either they didn't make their money back and are not interested in long term, or the GPU is no longer profitable. If you just purchase brand new cards to replace not so old cards that are still profitable, then you have to re-work on your Return on Investment. Or they use their profits to buy new GPU's to add to the farm with existing GPU's.

Edit: Sorry, third option is if you are those in the game a long time and see they can make far more back in the overpriced scalper market. In that case, hate the game, not the player.

 

[AusWolf]

That isn't usually how it works. They tend to keep them till they are no longer profitable. It is always a calculation between cost for electricity vs profit. Once the ROI on those GPU's happen, then they are just looking at electricity prices. As long as profit exists, they tend to keep. But the only time there is a massive dump is: either they didn't make their money back and are not interested in long term, or the GPU is no longer profitable. If you just purchase brand new cards to replace not so old cards that are still profitable, then you have to re-work on your Return on Investment. Or they use their profits to buy new GPU's to add to the farm with existing GPU's.

Edit: Sorry, third option is if you are those in the game a long time and see they can make far more back in the overpriced scalper market. In that case, hate the game, not the player.

That's a fair point, though if your ROI is high enough with the next generation, you'll want to swap, won't you? Not to mention selling your used GPUs to those desperate gamers also returns part of the investment.

I'd definitely rather hate the game, not the player(s). Allowing people to operate mining farms and earn huge amounts of money by doing literally nothing is in no way the reflection of an honest society - but then who ever said the 21st century was the time of honest societies?

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Little torn about this

Cryptocurrency wins votes of confidence from Texas governor, department of banking

Texas became the second state after Wyoming to recognize blockchain and cryptocurrency in...

www.houstonchronicle.com

 

[Outback Bronze]

Environment concerns alone will force the conversion.

BTC/Crypto has to one of the greenest Technologies to boot. You name another Tech that's hell bent on using renewables?

Here: https://nypost.com/2021/06/11/el-salvador-volcanoes-to-power-bitcoin-mining/

All of this has to be good/better for the Environment no?

 

[trog100]

i see a general worldwide economic collapse coming.. china is seeing another virus shutdown wave.. container ships are piling up at both ends of the routes..

most of what is being said in this thread will soon become of no relevance.. we will soon have more important things to worry about..

trog

 

[Outback Bronze]

china is seeing another virus shutdown wave

Didnt know that. Pretty bad?

 

[trog100]

Didnt know that. Pretty bad?

i am not sure how bad but i do see major supply chain issues with shortages and the inevitable rising prices just around the corner.. climate issues will become of secondary importance.. he he

trog

 

[ppn]

Whoever uses these unstable coins as currency is putting a rope around his neck ready to be hanged that was demonstrated over and over again. Proof of work wastes energy because 80% of all the coins have bein already mined, so why the hell do they need the remaining 20%. They need them because of greed, free money. For the system to operate hashrate can be at 1%, but you see they need the remaining 99% hashrate to outmine the attacks to the networks that could happen, so to make it secure this becomes anything but green technology. The only reason the price jumps is because miners don't want to sell below costs, and it snowballs from there. Proof of stake is also stupid because nobody will be using the chain to make transactions if it weren't for the wild speculations and swings that it enables the perpetrators to sell the tips and buy the dips therefore making 10% per day, and POS is coin that is stuck, can't be moved, and only makes 10% a year, so not very lucrative at all. And those swings can only last until the losers run out of money anyway. The losers have to learn the hard way usually.

 

[64K]

i see a general worldwide economic collapse coming..

I don't think so. Traditionally people turn to gold for security when looking at major economic uncertainties which causes gold to go up. You can look back at prices during the Great Recession from 2007 to 2009 for proof of that. Gold is actually dropping a good bit.

 

[Papahyooie]

As we beat to death in the other thread: Crypto uses far less energy than the banking system that it could replace. Think of the millions of air conditioners, light bulbs, networking equipment, etc etc etc etc on and on forever, that use energy in vast skyscrapers in bank headquarters, and the probably even more that is used in small bank branches on every street corner. Think of the waste when those servers in the data centers that power fintech are replaced every year or two ON SCHEDULE whether they need to be or not.

Now tell me crypto are the bad guys because we probably use as much as just the light bulbs involved in the above lol.

Call me what you will, but I still fail to see how all of this has any connection to cryptocurrencies.


I'm not planning on getting into crypto, so I guess I'll take your word for it for now.


That's great, but doesn't that work against the idea of freedom? I mean, if I maintain a fleet of 10,000 cars to make money while you have to walk an hour to work every day, I guess you can see it as freedom to use your legs, but I only see a system just as unfair and exploitative as the one we currently live in (or maybe even more so).

I didn't call you anything, so I dunno what that's about. Anyway, it has a connection to crypto because governments inherently violate the non-aggression principle. And the way to come out from under the thumb of governments is to have independent money and trade. Now, depending on how radical one might be, one could apply this only to despotic governments, or ALL governments, but it remains the same. Having universal global money that cannot be controlled by a government creates and maintains freedom.

As for the cars again, read the wiki article about the non-aggression principle if you wish to understand. What I am saying does not work against the idea of freedom. Because you have the right to buy as many cars as you like. You do not have the right to take MY car, because it is my property. But I do not have the right to prevent you from buying 10k cars if you so choose, because I do not have a right to those cars. And if that forces me to ride a bus, or walk, or whatever... well, it's my freedom to either deal with that or find another way. Build my own car. Ride a bike.

I understand why you feel this way, because you're entrenched in the existing system, and it's true, most people can't even fathom not being dependent on it. Freedom, TRUE freedom, is scary. But it's what some of us fight for, and crypto is a huge step in that direction. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it'd be nice if people didn't actively hinder efforts.

 

[AusWolf]

I didn't call you anything, so I dunno what that's about.

There's lot of hate in both camps, but I'm glad to see some people don't partake in it.

Anyway, it has a connection to crypto because governments inherently violate the non-aggression principle. And the way to come out from under the thumb of governments is to have independent money and trade. Now, depending on how radical one might be, one could apply this only to despotic governments, or ALL governments, but it remains the same. Having universal global money that cannot be controlled by a government creates and maintains freedom.

It cannot be controlled by governments, but will be controlled by someone. Or at least accumulated beyond measure. I'm pretty sure most of the crypto money out there is already in the hands of a very few people. Either way, this will lead to a despotic system sooner or later where money dictates what you can and cannot do, which isn't so different from the system we have now. Total freedom doesn't work unless people let go of their greed - which will never happen.

As for the cars again, read the wiki article about the non-aggression principle if you wish to understand. What I am saying does not work against the idea of freedom. Because you have the right to buy as many cars as you like. You do not have the right to take MY car, because it is my property. But I do not have the right to prevent you from buying 10k cars if you so choose, because I do not have a right to those cars. And if that forces me to ride a bus, or walk, or whatever... well, it's my freedom to either deal with that or find another way. Build my own car. Ride a bike.

How free do you feel in a system where some people operate mining farms to get enormously rich while you don't even have access to a single graphics card? Technically, you're free to buy graphics cards that aren't even there. If this extremely unfair situation (chaos) is what you call freedom, then thanks, but I'd rather choose the lesser evil.

Imagine a version of the current economy with a handful of people getting rich working multiple jobs while you are denied to have even one. Even if you wanted to start mining, you can't because all the graphics cards are working hard in mining farms of a select few already.

I understand why you feel this way, because you're entrenched in the existing system, and it's true, most people can't even fathom not being dependent on it. Freedom, TRUE freedom, is scary. But it's what some of us fight for, and crypto is a huge step in that direction. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it'd be nice if people didn't actively hinder efforts.

Don't get me wrong, I just as much despise of governments around the world as you do. But I also despise of a system where some people have access to unlimited wealth (mining) while others are free to exercise their right to shut up. The idea of freedom isn't scary, but the idea of people getting rich with zero work while others are being called narrow-minded and old-school just for disagreeing with them has nothing to do with freedom - it's only oppression by someone else than your government, wrapped into a nice coating of BS.

 

[Papahyooie]

There's lot of hate in both camps, but I'm glad to see some people don't partake in it.

Indeed.

It cannot be controlled by governments, but will be controlled by someone. Or at least accumulated beyond measure. I'm pretty sure most of the crypto money out there is already in the hands of a very few people. Either way, this will lead to a despotic system sooner or later where money dictates what you can and cannot do, which isn't so different from the system we have now. Total freedom doesn't work unless people let go of their greed - which will never happen.

That's the beauty. The genie is out of the bottle. BTC becomes centralized? Start using something else. Democratized money. Things are the way they are right now because we're in an awkward transition period. In order to reach the goal of democratized money, we have to let BTC become the giant, bloated, sacrificial lamb on the altar of publicity.

(note for those political junkies who might be reading, I'm not a fan of democracy in government either, as it's just tyranny by majority. But considering trade is inherently collective in nature, it is the best way forward. As long as nobody is forcing me to trade with a specific coin, and it is my prerogative to use something else if I so wish, pending agreement with the other party, then democracy in money is workable.)

How free do you feel in a system where some people operate mining farms to get enormously rich while you don't even have access to a single graphics card? Technically, you're free to buy graphics cards that aren't even there. If this extremely unfair situation (chaos) is what you call freedom, then thanks, but I'd rather choose the lesser evil.

I say more power to them. They are powering the eventual revolution. It isn't chaos at all. In fact, I feel great right now, because I just bought a 3080. Granted, I had to buy an entire computer to get it, but it was free so I don't care. Free because it's paid for with, you guessed it... mining profits. So I get my free 3080, and they're even gonna throw in a 10-core intel CPU, motherboard, case, and ssd. I don't have it in hands yet, but it's on its way. I also paid for the closing costs on my house during the last boom, and I've bought all sorts of toys with crypto profits in the past. Graphics cards, guitars, VR headsets, servers, you name it. So yea, I feel pretty good. You seem to have an idea that there is some shadowy cabal who is taking all the pie, and that simply isn't the case.

Don't get me wrong, I just as much despise of governments around the world as you do. But I also despise of a system where some people have access to unlimited wealth (mining) while others are free to exercise their right to shut up. The idea of freedom isn't scary, but the idea of people getting rich with zero work while others are being called narrow-minded and old-school just for disagreeing with them has nothing to do with freedom - it's only oppression by someone else than your government, wrapped into a nice coating of BS.

Other people in here, I can't speak for. But I've never told anybody to shut up. I have a vested interest in educating others about what crypto is about. Yes, as I said above, we are in an awkward transition period that will probably last decades if not longer, where things are fairly centralized and "unfair." We haven't yet reached the point where enough people are on board to take over the money system, and we haven't yet tested whether people have the stones to do so when governments start pushing back. Part of the beauty of it is that it can be a slow burn without a violent revolution involved, unlike many others.

 

[AusWolf]

That's the beauty. The genie is out of the bottle. BTC becomes centralized? Start using something else. Democratized money. Things are the way they are right now because we're in an awkward transition period. In order to reach the goal of democratized money, we have to let BTC become the giant, bloated, sacrificial lamb on the altar of publicity.

(note for those political junkies who might be reading, I'm not a fan of democracy in government either, as it's just tyranny by majority. But considering trade is inherently collective in nature, it is the best way forward. As long as nobody is forcing me to trade with a specific coin, and it is my prerogative to use something else if I so wish, pending agreement with the other party, then democracy in money is workable.)

If BTC becomes centralised, what makes you think that other coins won't?

I agree with your view on democracy, but let that not be the topic here (maybe in another forum).

I say more power to them. They are powering the eventual revolution. It isn't chaos at all. In fact, I feel great right now, because I just bought a 3080. Granted, I had to buy an entire computer to get it, but it was free so I don't care. Free because it's paid for with, you guessed it... mining profits. So I get my free 3080, and they're even gonna throw in a 10-core intel CPU, motherboard, case, and ssd. I don't have it in hands yet, but it's on its way. I also paid for the closing costs on my house during the last boom, and I've bought all sorts of toys with crypto profits in the past. Graphics cards, guitars, VR headsets, servers, you name it. So yea, I feel pretty good. You seem to have an idea that there is some shadowy cabal who is taking all the pie, and that simply isn't the case.

More power to unknown crypto farmers that you never even heard of, just somehow know that they got rich mining with all the GPUs that you don't have? Are you serious? They're not powering any revolution other than the revolution of their own wallets getting bigger. It's not about ideals. It's all about money. Unlimited, free money for some, small chips for others (like you, for example). Nobody is changing any system here as far as I see it. It's all BS to make people accept the fact that someone is getting enormously rich with zero work.

Other people in here, I can't speak for. But I've never told anybody to shut up. I have a vested interest in educating others about what crypto is about. Yes, as I said above, we are in an awkward transition period that will probably last decades if not longer, where things are fairly centralized and "unfair." We haven't yet reached the point where enough people are on board to take over the money system, and we haven't yet tested whether people have the stones to do so when governments start pushing back. Part of the beauty of it is that it can be a slow burn without a violent revolution involved, unlike many others.

We can't even reach the point because there are no graphics cards to mine with anymore. All of them are taken by a handful of people.
You can push back governments as far as you like, but you can't prevent "a-hole B" taking power when "a-hole A" falls. A new monetary system doesn't rid us from politics - it only transfers wealth and power from one hand into another.

 

[trog100]

lets get one thing right.. anybody can buy a gpu and have it delivered the next day.. just not at the price some people think they should able to do so at..

anybody can buy and ounce of gold in exactly the same way..

trog

 

[AusWolf]

lets get one thing right.. anybody can buy a gpu and have it delivered the next day.. just not at the price some people think they should able to do so at..

anybody can buy and ounce of gold in exactly the same way..

trog

NVIDIA Graphics Cards | NVIDIA GeForce GPU | SCAN UK

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Can you show me which of these graphics cards I can buy?

 

[Papahyooie]

If BTC becomes centralised, what makes you think that other coins won't?

I agree with your view on democracy, but let that not be the topic here (maybe in another forum).

Oh I'm sure they will. And then we can move on from that. But the thing is, once we've made the transition from government controlled fiat to democratized currency, it will be much harder for coins to do so. Everyone can use whatever coin they choose rather than having a singular "legal" currency. Deal with those who will accept your coin of choice, and don't deal with those that won't. Free market in currency is the goal.

More power to unknown crypto farmers that you never even heard of, just somehow know that they got rich mining with all the GPUs that you don't have? Are you serious? They're not powering any revolution other than the revolution of their own wallets getting bigger. It's not about ideals. It's all about money. Unlimited, free money for some, small chips for others (like you, for example). Nobody is changing any system here as far as I see it. It's all BS to make people accept the fact that someone is getting enormously rich with zero work.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They are powering the drive toward cryptocurrency being ubiquitous, and hopefully toward freedom in currency at some point in the future. If they can get rich doing so, I'm happy for them. I do not see being rich as a bad thing. In fact I hope and expect to be rich myself someday lol.

We can't even reach the point because there are no graphics cards to mine with anymore. All of them are taken by a handful of people.
You can push back governments as far as you like, but you can't prevent "a-hole B" taking power when "a-hole A" falls. A new monetary system doesn't rid us from politics - it only transfers wealth and power from one hand into another.

That simply isn't true. I just said, I just bought one. I paid a premium, and bought a whole computer to make it *easy* because the extra price was worth not having to do the work of tracking one down, but that was my choice. You can buy a graphics card right now if you want to. It may not be at a price you like, but that is simply the reality of the market.

A new monetary system does absolutely rid us from politics (or at least from oppressive ones.) Politics is ALL about money. And if the means to mint currency is in the hands of the masses, then if the masses decide that "a-hole B" has too much power, then they stop using a-hole B's currency, and it is devalued to nothing. With crypto, the power is truly in the hands of the people, and it simply cannot be centralized in the absence of the governing system that is keeping it so at the moment. The ONLY reason BTC is as centralized as it is, is because it is currently the best gateway to transfer the value to fiat. You can easily get cash from BTC. That's it. That's the only reason. Remove fiat, and the democratized system takes over.

But at the end of the day, I will absolutely ally with a-hole B in order to bring down a-hole A. I'll make that deal any and every day. We can worry about a-hole B later.

 

[R-T-B]

Edit: You know that the huge majority of crypto lies in Bitcoin and Ethereum, right?

Yes, but miners mine whatever and trade for target currency.

NVIDIA Graphics Cards | NVIDIA GeForce GPU | SCAN UK

Shop the full range of GeForce RTX & GTX graphic cards. Upgrade your PC to the next generation ray tracing, 4K and VR ready gaming graphics cards by NVIDIA.

www.scan.co.uk

Can you show me which of these graphics cards I can buy?

Try Ebay. He said "not at the price you want," mind.

 

[trog100]

NVIDIA Graphics Cards | NVIDIA GeForce GPU | SCAN UK

Shop the full range of GeForce RTX & GTX graphic cards. Upgrade your PC to the next generation ray tracing, 4K and VR ready gaming graphics cards by NVIDIA.

www.scan.co.uk

Can you show me which of these graphics cards I can buy?

none of them directly from scan but all of them from ebay.. some of what i bought on ebay did originate on scan though..

i have bought 10 new 3xxx series cards this year all of them from ebay.. i have invested roughly £11000 doing this i have also sold 8 1070 cards i got about £3000 back from doing this..

i accept your argument that the world aint a fair place and that poorer people are denied things that richer people aint.. that is pretty much how its always been and i dont see it changing..

trog

 

[AusWolf]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They are powering the drive toward cryptocurrency being ubiquitous, and hopefully toward freedom in currency at some point in the future. If they can get rich doing so, I'm happy for them. I do not see being rich as a bad thing. In fact I hope and expect to be rich myself someday lol.

I guess that's where our opinions differ. Being the enemy of my enemy doesn't make us friends. Our goals can still be (and usually are) entirely different. I do not support anyone whose only goal is to get rich without any work or without contributing to society in any way.

That simply isn't true. I just said, I just bought one. I paid a premium, and bought a whole computer to make it *easy* because the extra price was worth not having to do the work of tracking one down, but that was my choice. You can buy a graphics card right now if you want to. It may not be at a price you like, but that is simply the reality of the market.

Well, yeah, if you buy for inflated prices from shady individuals on ebay who offer no warranty whatsoever. Thanks, but I'll pass. Not to mention the fact that you're encouraging those individuals to continue their shady practices and inflate prices even more.

A new monetary system does absolutely rid us from politics (or at least from oppressive ones.) Politics is ALL about money. And if the means to mint currency is in the hands of the masses, then if the masses decide that "a-hole B" has too much power, then they stop using a-hole B's currency, and it is devalued to nothing. With crypto, the power is truly in the hands of the people, and it simply cannot be centralized in the absence of the governing system that is keeping it so at the moment. The ONLY reason BTC is as centralized as it is, is because it is currently the best gateway to transfer the value to fiat. You can easily get cash from BTC. That's it. That's the only reason. Remove fiat, and the democratized system takes over.

It absolutely does not. As long as any kind of money exists, the rich will have more power than the poor. It has always been the order of things. I do not see power being in the hands of group A any better than that of group B. People are people. They want money, they want power. This will never change.

Power should be in the hands of the wise, not in the hands of the ones with access to graphics cards.

none of them directly from scan but all of them from ebay.. some of what i bought on ebay did originate on scan though..

i have bought 10 new 3xxx series cards this year all of them from ebay.. i have invested roughly £11000 doing this i have also sold 8 1070 cards i got about £3000 back from doing this..

See my response to Papahyooie: no, thanks.

i accept your argument that the world aint a fair place and that poorer people are denied things that richer people aint.. that is pretty much how its always been and i dont see it changing..

Exactly. That's why I only see crypto as an attempt to transfer money and power from one set of hands to another (and with no work whatsoever).

 

[R-T-B]

and with no work whatsoever

I know it's not popular to say, but crypto on any scale whatsoever does actually involve labor. It gets downright menial.

What card failed any why becomes your life. It quickly becomes a minimum wage style job (with nearly equal pay if you cash out immediate).

 

[AusWolf]

I know it's not popular to say, but crypto on any scale whatsoever does actually involve labor. It gets downright menial.

What card failed any why becomes your life. It quickly becomes a minimum wage style job (with nearly equal pay if you cash out immediate).

Except that no one else profits from doing that work besides you. You're not making any product, and you're not offering any service, or anything useful to society.

 

[trog100]

i aint gonna debate your unfair world theories but crypto isnt any different than anything else.. you do seem to be unfairly picking on it..

i dont like your ebay shady character references ether.. ebay sellers are mostly just normal people..

ebay is a pretty good price discovery mechanism.. false promises by retailers are not..

trog