GPU- Upscaling, but through VGA.

[daehxxiD]

Well, title says it pretty much. Is there a way to get my Mobility HD2600 to upscale to a set resolution, also over VGA; I believe it should be possible over HDMI/DVI, but my laptop has no such connection and nor is there any (free) one on my HDTV... So the thing is, there is upscaling working already on my Laptop-display; I can choose from centered, full-screen and keep aspect ratio; all works like a charm. But when I attach my HDTV, CCC detects it as a normal CRT-Monitor. It works flawlessly though and looks very good at it's native res of 1360*768.

However, the HD2600 does not have the power to run modern games at that resolution (in fact not even at 1280x800, native res of the notebook panel), so I usually run them in 1024x600 or, in the case of crysis at 848x480, to still be able to run them pretty much maxed out.

Now the problem is, my HD-TV can't display the 1024x600 resolution and 848x480 looks rather unsatisfying in any other game outside of crysis (thanks to it's quite effective shader AA).

Maybe it is possible to trick the driver into thinking I'm hooked up to an LCD-TV and give me the gpu scaling option even over vga? I would be very thankful for any help!

For sys-info check below the username.

 

[boogah]

there's limitation to those VGA port. Think ASUS makes an external GPU thing for laptops don't know much about those.

Edit: found it haha

http://www.engadget.com/tag/XgStation/ pretty interesting get one of those then get a 4850 n stuff it in there super laptop card O_O

 

[daehxxiD]

there's limitation to those VGA port. Think ASUS makes an external GPU thing for laptops don't know much about those.

Edit: found it haha

http://www.engadget.com/tag/XgStation/ pretty interesting get one of those then get a 4850 n stuff it in there super laptop card O_O

Heh, yeah, but the 1x PCI-Express bandwidth of the Express-card slot seriously cripples those cards. I remember seeing benches of a HD3850 in such a box (not from asus though) benching lower than my HD2600; by a lot!

So, what exactly would those limitations on the VGA port be? All I want is the GPU to scale all of the images it calculates internaly to 1360x768 and then output it as 1360x768; preferably with aspect ratio kept; just like it does for my laptop panel.

 

[Mussels]

VGA cannot do scaling, theres the limitation. your TV is what controls it, which is why it looks worse than say, when on the laptops LCD.

Your options are:
*run any resolution and let the PC scale (seems you arent happy with this)
*find a way to get digital (DVI to HDMI adaptor etc) and see if it looks any better.

To be honest, you're probably stuck. If you dont have the power for 1360x768 then you're going to have to turn settings down.

 

[daehxxiD]

VGA cannot do scaling, theres the limitation. your TV is what controls it, which is why it looks worse than say, when on the laptops LCD.

Your options are:
*run any resolution and let the PC scale (seems you arent happy with this)
*find a way to get digital (DVI to HDMI adaptor etc) and see if it looks any better.

To be honest, you're probably stuck. If you dont have the power for 1360x768 then you're going to have to turn settings down.

Hmm... i guess that's pretty much a shame. Don't quite get what VGA has to do, with not being able to scale though? The Xbox 360 can do it, it basically scales every game even on YUV but also on besaid VGA (none of the 360 games run in native 1360x768, but they get scaled to it by the GPU and then output in 1360x768 to the HDTV via VGA).

Your options are:
*run any resolution and let the PC scale (seems you arent happy with this)

I suppose you mean "let the TV scale"; it's not like I'm not happy with that, the quality is very good in fact and even more crisp than what the gpu seems to do on my laptop panel, but it just doesn't work with exotic resolutions like 1024x600 (which I mostly use to game). Since it is a Toshiba LCD, on 1280x720 the channel is reserved for YUV-Colorspaces; this makes so that the RGB-Signal from the VGA turns out green, so the next viable option is 1360x768, which in turn again my GPU lacks the power to render in newer games.

If my GPU could however always output 1360x768 to the display (pretty much like all x1xxx-series and up ATI-Gpus should be able to do on DVI-Port), it would give me a much wider selection of resolutions and thus a more flexible way of configuring my game settings.

*find a way to get digital (DVI to HDMI adaptor etc) and see if it looks any better.

Yeah, I guess that is the only possibilty unless playing in 848x480 (which the TV strangely supports) with perhaps some AA applied doesn't satisfy my needs (DMC4 and Colin McRae Dirt look both great like that). But upgrading on a laptop is not that easy and although there is a (USB)-dockingstation from toshiba with HDMI, I highly doubt the USB-Bandwidth would suffice for a real HDMI-Connection.

But let me get this straight: I still don't get which (hardware) limitation would lie on VGA to prohibit scaling (that's basically what every Mediaplayer does when you go fullscreen, right?); would it not suffice to kind of trick the driver into thinking the VGA device is actually a DVI/HDMI device, so that I can enable the scaling options for my GPU also on the VGA-Port? (I'm sorry if I'm being stubborn here, but I really just don't get what would prohibit that?)

 

[Mussels]

scaling is a weird thing.

Over VGA, theres nothing. The screen controls it.
Over DVI/HDMI, you can DISABLE scaling, or control it (aka, Nv has their own scaling that preserves the aspect ratio)

media players scaling as opposed to games scaling is a bit different, more or less they're stretching to fit. If you cant run at native res, you have to use a lower res - either you disable scaling for a clear image, or you run with scaling and suffer a poor image.

Your three real options are to run at native res with lower settings, run at non native res with poor quality, or run the game in a window.

 

[daehxxiD]

scaling is a weird thing.

Over VGA, theres nothing. The screen controls it.
Over DVI/HDMI, you can DISABLE scaling, or control it (aka, Nv has their own scaling that preserves the aspect ratio)

media players scaling as opposed to games scaling is a bit different, more or less they're stretching to fit. If you cant run at native res, you have to use a lower res - either you disable scaling for a clear image, or you run with scaling and suffer a poor image.

Your three real options are to run at native res with lower settings, run at non native res with poor quality, or run the game in a window.

My GPU gives me 3 options for scaling to the Laptop Panel:

The first from above, the one I selected, pretty much is the "run at non native res with poor quality"-setting, but with aspect ratio kept (quality is good enough for me); the second, full screen, is basically the same but it streches the image to fully fill the screen (I hate that) and third is basically the "window"-option except the game is still running full-screen but only showing up in the middle of the display with the rest blackend-out...
The problem is, I don't have any of those options for my VGA Device, so if I try to play a game in 1024x600 the HDTV just craps out with an "out of range"-warning, while it works fine on the Laptop Panel. (which would only leave me with two of the options you proposed, either play in a window or turn down the settings in native res [or use a lower, supported res, like in my case 848x480])

So basically, what I want is to get these settings for my VGA-Device (HDTV); if I tell the driver "max. resolution of the attached display is 1360x768; I want the GPU to scale everything to that res before converting the digital signal to an analog signal and while keeping the aspect ratio!", it should actually work just the same way it does on my notebook LCD, right? At least as far as I've understood, there is such an option for the DVI port and I believe it does just exactly the same (ergo, having the gpu scale the image internally to 1360x768 and output it that way to the Display; the only thing missing would be the conversion of the digital signal to an analog signal).

So, sorry again for being stubborn but could you explain me why that wouldn't work on VGA?

And thanks for helping.

 

[Mussels]

yeah because those options are what DISABLES scaling, and only available on digital displays with 1:1 pixel mapping.

preserve aspect ratio allows scaling, but only to the same extent in each dimension
full screen: scaling enabled (default, and forced for VGA and TV Out)
centered (disable all scaling)

Your only options are as i have said. use the native res, try digital to see if it works better, or run the games in a window.

another idea i've kinda come up with, is your TV may acually have aspect ratio control. i can set mine to 4:3 mode and it changes the native res from 1360x768 to 1024x768, while adding the black bars itself.

 

[daehxxiD]

yeah because those options are what DISABLES scaling, and only available on digital displays with 1:1 pixel mapping.

preserve aspect ratio allows scaling, but only to the same extent in each dimension
full screen: scaling enabled (default, and forced for VGA and TV Out)
centered (disable all scaling)

Your only options are as i have said. use the native res, try digital to see if it works better, or run the games in a window.

another idea i've kinda come up with, is your TV may acually have aspect ratio control. i can set mine to 4:3 mode and it changes the native res from 1360x768 to 1024x768, while adding the black bars itself.

Thanks for yet another answer, but I think you've got that wrong. Scaling is NOT forced on VGA and TV Out*. Afaik what basically goes out on usual VGA is a 100% unscaled picture going out from the framebuffer; say, if I play in 1024x768, it outputs 1024x768; if I send this signal to my HDTV he would normally display it with black-bars (1:1 Pixelmapping), but I could extend it to full screen (which then in turn would be scaling, but done by the TV, not the GPU).

Now my problem is, that the TV does NOT accept an unscaled resolution of 1024x600, so I get NO picture on my tv if I try to use that resolution (which gives me best performance/quality ratio and has the right aspect ratio). This would be solved, if the PC instead of outputting 1024x600 directly, would output 1360x768 whitout actually rendering the stuff in that resolution. (Pretty much like the 360 does. Take CoD4 for example, runs in 1024x600 but is output to 720p in YUV or whatever res you chose in VGA-Settings). Since Catalyst 8.3 there is an option to do just that, but only over HDMI/DVI, so in theory, it should work over VGA also.
That's basically what I am looking for as all of the other options you suggest are "worse" for my taste than just playing at the next working res. of 848x480.

*It might be forced on TV-out though; since usually TVs have only a res. of around 720x576 (PAL) or 720*480 (NTSC) but you can choose 1024x768 on the PC, yet he outputs one of those SD-Signals (meaning that instead of upscaling it downscales). What I am looking for is very similiar only in the other direction and pretty much proves that it should be possible to do with just a few tweaks to the software.

 

[Mussels]

i dont mean forced as in its deliberate, i mean that theres no way to turn it off. the only way to adjust it is via the screen itself.

if what you're doing is trying to run an unsupported resolution, nothing can be done. just because it works on the laptop LCD doesnt mean its going to work on a TV.

 

[daehxxiD]

if what you're doing is trying to run an unsupported resolution, nothing can be done. just because it works on the laptop LCD doesnt mean its going to work on a TV.

Yes, that is exactly what I'd wanna do, and I don't see why that should be impossible (of course it is as the software is right now), but the hardware does have the feature, so why not use it for this scenario aswell? If it works over HDMI and DVI (or integrated DVI like on my laptop lcd) I don't see why it shouldn't work over VGA. Without a scaler an LCD-Panel would only accept native resolutions or display stuff with black bars (or overscanned if the res is bigger than native).

With a GPU-Scaling feature on the vga-port I could easily run my HDTV at 1024x600, even without hdmi...

That is, if the scaling is really done in the GPU and not only "directed" from there and still managed by the hardware scaler in the LCD-Display.

 

[boogah]

http://www.digitalconnection.com/faq/hdtv_4.asp

check out number 2.


or maybe something like this >> http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2537968

Also VGA has bandwidth limitation some may only go up to 1024 x 768

most HDTVs only support standard resolutions like >> 640 x 480 (480P) 1280x720 (720P) and 1920x1080 (1080i) if they do display weird resolution it would look squished or distorted.


buh yah my htpc has a 2600xt on it since it's a desktop pci-e card it has dual DVI and i hook the lil DVI to HDMI connector and run HDMI cable straight to my 50 inch HDTV 1920 x 1080 30hz refresh rate.

 

[Mussels]

my TV only supports 480P, 576i, 720P, 1360x768 (native) and 1080i (looks shite)

Simply because its lower res than the native does not mean it will work. this comes down to the screen, and whether or not they added support for it. most TV's only include the native res, and 'common' resolutions to allow set top boxes to work. they usually dont give a damn about PC users.

The other adaptor listed was for component video, which will most likely have the same limitations (component on my TV only works upto 720p, not even native res works)

 

[daehxxiD]

Yes, I understand what you are saying guys and it is 100% correct. But I'm not having trouble with running my TV at optimal resolution for conventional use (e.g. Video, Images etc.) but for use with games. What I want the GPU to do is upscale the odd 1024x600 resolution, not supported by my HDTV, to a supported and native 1360x768. This would allow me to virtually choose ANY resolution the gpu is capable of outputting and use it on the tv.

Since Catalyst 8.3 there is a GPU-Scaling option for DVI/HDMI-Devices on all x1xxx and up series. This again is doing just what I'm looking for, turning every resolution you choose into the panels native res (and even keeping the right aspect ratio). This leads me to believe it is possible on the Hardware, all that would need to be done now, is outputting that image over VGA instead of DVI. And the cable is definatly not limiting my bandwidth; I have no problems with 1360x768 as it displays very nice and clean (it's a 5m vga-cable).

Also scaling seems to be very possible over analog devices aswell, just check the before mentioned TV-Out. You can choose from a variety of resolutions, but in the end what is displayed on the tv is still 720x576 or 720x480; basicly what happens here is downscaling, the counterpart to what I am looking for to get working over VGA: Upscaling.
If you know the Xbox360 you basicly know what I'd wanna have the machine do: I want to have the machine running at 1024x600, BUT outputting it as 1360x768...

I hope I made my point as clear as possible now, even though it seems this is a rather unconvetional thing to ask for.

 

[Mussels]

i dont think its actually possible. Nvidia have a 'scaling' option as well, but all they do is reduce/restrict the native panel scaling, they dont actually upscale.

 

[boogah]

dood get off the denial train.

 

[daehxxiD]

dood get off the denial train.

I'm not denying (hell, is this the right spelling? I thought about how to write it for 5 minutes), I'm only wondering as in why GPU-Scaling was apparently available to DVI/HDMI but not for VGA, which made no sense to me. But Mussles pretty much cleared it up with his last statement, that is if ATI does the same as Nvidia (basically manage the internal scaler of the LCD and NOT upscale internally.)

Soo.. any ATI-Users who have experience with the GPU-Upscaling on DVI/HDMI? Is it really just a reducing/restricting of the native panel scaling?

 

[boogah]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denial

VGA old technology CRT analog

DVI new technology for DIGITAL LCD display

your laptop has VGA output mainly for presentation (hook up to projector) where the projector only accepts what it can output usually 640x480 (VGA) 800x600 (SVGA) 1024x768 (XGA) etc.. No scaling is done just simply an output of data for display.

If your laptop have DVI output then it would be a totally different scenerio since DVI is digital and therefore can be munipulated.

 

[daehxxiD]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denial

VGA old technology CRT analog

DVI new technology for DIGITAL LCD display

your laptop has VGA output mainly for presentation (hook up to projector) where the projector only accepts what it can output usually 640x480 (VGA) 800x600 (SVGA) 1024x768 (XGA) etc.. No scaling is done just simply an output of data for display.

If your laptop have DVI output then it would be a totally different scenerio since DVI is digital and therefore can be munipulated.

And the xbox 360 is magic?

 

[boogah]

Xbox 360 doesn't have VGA OUTPUT.

 

[daehxxiD]

Xbox 360 doesn't have VGA OUTPUT.

O rly?

 

[boogah]

nope it's digital out to analog. I'm done here seems like you really doesn't grasps the concept.

 

[daehxxiD]

nope it's digital out to analog. I'm done here seems like you really doesn't grasps the concept.

Wow, how wrong can you be? First 360 revision only has Analog output, that's what the ANA-Chip is for and why it had to be swapped for a HANA-Chip so that it is able to output digital (HDMI) on the newer revisions.

I'm being treated pretty much like the idiot here, but I'd suggest next time you inform yourself before you bash down on me like this.

 

[Mussels]

he's talking about the adaptor. the 360 uses a more complicated digital to VGA adaptor which obviously goes beyond specs in order to allow adjustmets, whereas DVI to VGA adaptors for PC dont.

your laptop has native VGA out, so it doesnt even have the option to be modified before the adaptor (which cant be done on PC, but theoretically is possible)

 

[daehxxiD]

he's talking about the adaptor. the 360 uses a more complicated digital to VGA adaptor which obviously goes beyond specs in order to allow adjustmets, whereas DVI to VGA adaptors for PC dont.

your laptop has native VGA out, so it doesnt even have the option to be modified before the adaptor (which cant be done on PC, but theoretically is possible)

Well, obviously the ANA is more complex than your standard PC Videochip; the 360 has to output Composite, S-Video, RGB SCART, YUV, VGA and afaik even antenna signals from that port (let alone outputting both Stereo and S/PDIF); but the scaling is still being done by the GPU.

"The only other major change under the bonnet is the new HANA video display chip, replacing the old ANA version in the classic 360. This chip has erroneously been described as the silicon that deals with the 360's inbuilt hardware scaling. In truth, Microsoft has now confirmed to us that it's merely a video output chip - a means of transferring the framebuffer into all of the different signals: composite, s-video, RGB SCART, component, VGA and - the key addition with HANA - HDMI. Scaling itself is actually performed by the Xenos GPU (most likely using a variation of Lanczos resizing) so in that respect the Elite performs identically to the original Xbox 360. The presence of HANA confirms that there will be no aftermarket HDMI solution for the current model."
- http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=78001&page=2

So in other words, scaling happens BEFORE it is converted to a specific signal, like VGA, YUV or whatever. I thought the same would happen on current gen ATI-Cards with the gpu scaling, but if ATI really does it the same way as Nvidia and what Mussles says is true, that is not the case. What the GPU then would do is not so much scale the thing itself, but only transmit AR-Data and whatnot to the LCD-Scaler, which obviously is not possible on VGA (and I never denyed that).

Some Game-engines have scaling incorporated, for example UT3 (if I remeber correctly from the demo); you could set your native res and through a slider lower the actual resolution the game is being rendered at. Again, the 360 GPU does this for everything, Xbox 1 Games, Dashboard, DVDs... whatever. It always outputs 1360x768 if I set that, even though internal calculations are done at lower resolutions (Xbox 1 games a rendered at 720x480 with 4xAA usually). This is not changed/modified or whatever on the analog signal, but pretty much before the image even reaches the ANA/HANA Videoconverter chip; the TV scaler does nothing in fact.

If scaling happens inside the GPU than the image should be scalable no matter what, if however it is always scaled by the LCD-Scaler, I understand you cannot modify the vga-signal as in to command the scaler.

Found on some other forums (german) that the GPU does actually output the native res with hardware scaling (even if a game uses 800x600 for example, like Diablo 2); the LCD-Scaler does nothing; I strongly believe this is done inside the GPU (thus GPU-Accelerated scaling) and not by some modification of the DVI-Signal (e.g. Maintain aspect ratio outputs a native res image with black borders).
- http://www.pcgames.de/?menu=0901&s=thread&bid=3094&tid=6918118&x=6
- http://www.gamestar.de/community/gspinboard/showthread.php?p=9052523

"There is also a new GPU scaling feature coming with Catalyst v8.3. This new feature gives users the ability to use GPU accelerated scaling for wide aspect LCD displays, instead of allowing the panel to scale images from non-native resolutions. There is also a new setting labeled “Maintain aspect ratio” that improves the display resolution image quality, when GPU scaling is enabled, by maintaining the wide panel aspect ratio."
- http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/ATI_Catalyst_83_Sneak_Peek_CrossFireX_and_More/?page=2

Rather old article but says what I mean.