HDD bytes per sector types; 512e vs 512n vs 4Kn?

[videobruce]

I'm in the market for a replacement HDD; 4TB vs 2TB. I settled for Seagate Enterprise. The 3 models are the same price & same warranty $150 5yrs,

The types are
512e (emulated),
512n (native) and
4Kn 4096 native

I have many a few good articles on the differences sine this aspect never came up before, 20 years playing around with computers. I only looked at manufacture, capacity, interface, speed, & warranty.

I'm running Win7 Pro (still), I may go to W10, but that is a maybe. The drives I have currently are one SSD and two Hitachi 2TB with a 512 BPS spec. I looked up the specs and all that is provided is "512", not 512e or 512n. So I don't know what they are. The drives models numbers are identical except for the last digit; 0 vs 1;
Hitachi HUA723020ALA640

From what I have read, 521e is the way to go for current compatibility.But, that seems debatable according to the articles. This replacement will be a 'storage' drive and it seemed that a 4096 BPS would be the better choice.

The Seagate Enterprise choices are;
ST4000NM0115
ST4000NM0085
ST4000NM0035

Input please.

 

[NdMk2o1o]

it's a storage drive, I think you're over complicating it for no reason, look for the one with the best reviews and warranty for your budget /thread. in fact you don't even need enterprise drive, grab a barracuda, WD black or whatever the best consumer HDD is for your budget.

 

[Shihab]

Do they even make native 512 drives anymore?
At any rate, if you're sticking with Win7 and planning to use it for long (obligatory disclaimer that this is not recommended), go with the 512e. Microsoft's official statement is that native AF drives are NOT SUPPORTED.

Besides, whatever gains you get from 4K sectors you already have even with a logical 512 sectors.

 

[videobruce]

I think you're over complicating it for no reason

Maybe, but the points that were made seemed valid. As to the choices for Enterprise was simply cost & warranty. WD's 'Black" 4TB is around $20 more.

Microsoft's official statement is that native AF drives are NOT SUPPORTED

Are you referring to 512n drives?

 

[Shihab]

The other one. AF (Advanced format) are 4K, native or otherwise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Format

 

[johnspack]

4k is best for gpt partitioning, which you will need to use. That means you can't use it as a boot drive under windows 7.
And for those above, gpt partitioned, 4k formatted storage drives work just fine under windows 7.

 

[Flaky]

Well, actually one of the benefits of 4Kn is that drive can be bigger than 2TB and be fully accessible when partitioned using MBR.

Aside from that, it hard to find a good reason for going 4Kn. Almost no gain, but minimal risk of compatibility related to certain software.
Stick to 512e.

512e was supposed to be a transitive format, but it seems it's going to stay forever

 

[Jetster]

Ask SuperSoph_WD

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Stick to WD though, I know a guy that does pro data recovery, including for the UK police, and he said to me don't buy Seagate as they are the worst for fails. He also said, if you can't afford WD Blacks, buy WD Blues as they are not far off the performance of Blacks

 

[FordGT90Concept]

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...t-policy-for-4k-sector-hard-drives-in-windows

Windows 7:
512n = Supported
512e = Supported if KB982018 or Service Pack 1 is installed.
4Kn = Not Supported
everything else = Not Supported

ST4000NM0115 512e
ST4000NM0085 4Kn
ST4000NM0035 512n

The Hitachis you have are likely 512n. 3+ TB is where 512n becomes inadequate. I doubt 512n is available on drives larger than 4 TB because integrity information takes too much space on the platters.

If you have W7 SP1 installed, I would probably go with ST4000NM0115 (the 512e drive).


Edit: Out of curiosity, because Windows 10 never asked me, I wondered what my 12 TB Seagate Exos was...

Row|512n|512n|512e|4Kn
bytes per sector|512|512|512|4096
bytes per physical sector|not supported|512|4096|4096

The drive above is 512e. My 275 GB SSD is 512n.

This article explains everything: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...dvanced-format--4k--disk-compatibility-update

4Kn are super rare outside of mainframe clusters. The industry has apparently decided that 512e is the norm.

 

[videobruce]

The other one. AF (Advanced format) are 4K, native or otherwise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Format

That makes no mention of 512n types.

4k is best for gpt partitioning, which you will need to use. That means you can't use it as a boot drive under windows 7.
And for those above, gpt partitioned, 4k formatted storage drives work just fine under windows 7.

I was already figuring GPT. I wouldn't use that size HDD for a 'boot' drive even when partitioned.

 

[Flaky]

That makes no mention of 512n types.

Through the article, those drives are referred to as legacy 512 byte sector ones.
512n is not listed as advanced format variant, because it is not an advanced format variant

 

[videobruce]

Stick to WD though, I know a guy that does pro data recovery, including for the UK police, and he said to me don't buy Seagate as they are the worst for fails. He also said, if you can't afford WD Blacks, buy WD Blues as they are not far off the performance of Blacks

Funny you mentioned that, my local IT guy (whom I known for 20 years since I bought my first custom built tower from) says just the opposite.
He had humongous issues with WD drives and WD's customer service years ago. He only buys Seagate. I was originally leaning towards SG, but I still considered WD. One other thing I feel is important; I don't like supporting semi-monopolies, where one company commands the field (no thanks to out of control de-regulation). The main reason I stuck with AMD, NO Wintel for me!

Here is an article from Seagate that I found interesting;
https://www.seagate.com/tech-insights/advanced-format-4k-sector-hard-drives-master-ti/

These are the drives that I already mentioned. It was the 1st time I saw those additional 'types' listed;

 

[Deleted member 24505]

My friend, said seagate is owned by hitachi or vice versa, since the flood that caused them a lot of headache, their drives have been rubbish. I was just passing on the info

This is worth a look too-
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-failure-rates-q1-2017/

 

[videobruce]

When was that flood?

From Wikipedia relevant quotes;
"March 2011, Western Digital agreed to acquire the storage unit of Hitachi, HGST"
"December 2011, Seagate acquired Samsung's HDD business."
"March 2012, Western Digital completed the acquisition of HGST."
"May 2012 Western Digital divested assets to manufacture and sell certain 3.5-inch hard drives for the desktop and consumer electronics markets to Toshiba."
"February 2016, Seagate was hit with class action lawsuit over the defective hard drives they sold."
"January 2017, Seagate announced the shutdown at Suzhou, China - one of its largest HDD assembly plants "

As to 512e vs 4Kn; I think I should of started a pole; 512e 2, 4Kn 1

 

[R-T-B]

My friend, said seagate is owned by hitachi or vice versa, since the flood that caused them a lot of headache, their drives have been rubbish. I was just passing on the info

Hitachi GST is owned by WD. SLIGHTLY different.

In the case of the drives you are choosing, you will really want an Advanced Format drive of type 512e. The platter is denser for AF on that model (better performance) and it will work with Windows 7.

 

[videobruce]

Are Hitachi labels drives even being sold anymore?? (Not refirbished, but brand new.)

 

[R-T-B]

Are Hitachi labels drives even being sold anymore?? (Not refirbished, but brand new.)

Yes. Western Digital still operates the brand for mobile and server markets (Travelstar and Ultrastar) at least.

I have a post aquisition Ultrastar in my rig right now...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

As to 512e vs 4Kn; I think I should of started a pole; 512e 2, 4Kn 1

Just get 512e and be merry.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Hitachi GST is owned by WD. SLIGHTLY different.

In the case of the drives you are choosing, you will really want an Advanced Format drive of type 512e. The platter is denser for AF on that model (better performance) and it will work with Windows 7.

Ok, he did tell me but I must have confused myself.

When was that flood?

From Wikipedia relevant quotes;
"March 2011, Western Digital agreed to acquire the storage unit of Hitachi, HGST"
"December 2011, Seagate acquired Samsung's HDD business."
"March 2012, Western Digital completed the acquisition of HGST."
"May 2012 Western Digital divested assets to manufacture and sell certain 3.5-inch hard drives for the desktop and consumer electronics markets to Toshiba."
"February 2016, Seagate was hit with class action lawsuit over the defective hard drives they sold."
"January 2017, Seagate announced the shutdown at Suzhou, China - one of its largest HDD assembly plants "

As to 512e vs 4Kn; I think I should of started a pole; 512e 2, 4Kn 1

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/oct/25/thailand-floods-hard-drive-shortage

 

[videobruce]

Almost 8 years ago. Ancient history.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Almost 8 years ago. Ancient history.

Ancient history maybe, but he said, since the flood, their(seagate) drives have not been as good. Also if you looked at the link I posted to the reliability site, seagate was the worst. read some of the comments.
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-failure-rates-q1-2017/

 

[videobruce]

That was Q1 2017, Q3 2018 (current) is here;
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Q3-2018-Lifetime-Chart-2.png

Looks as WD is worse.

 

[Shihab]

Backblaze's data should be taken too carefully (and sometimes with a grain of salt), imo. Between 2018 and 2017, the picture has dramatically changed. And I really doubt their drive numbers are enough to be considered a good, representative sample size (for some skus/manufacterers), without going into the "random" part...

 

[videobruce]

Understood, SG has changed their 'Constellation" series from a year or better ago.

Your post 'hiccuped'