HDMI out from GPU revisited

[Frag_Maniac]

OK, after a lengthy chat session with a local custom PC builder, I'm still not able to get it working, but found some interesting info.

1. I don't know why, but his Device Manager under sound, video and game controllers shows a UAA Bus driver, and mine does not. W7 Ultimate in both cases. Asrock MB on his vs my ASUS P6X58D-E.

2. Tried a 1.4 version HDMI cable straight into the AVR and still black screen.

3. Tried setting the BIOS S/PDIF setting to HDMI, still black screen and no multi channel HDMI Device option.

I tried locating and installing the UAA Bus driver (TechSpot), but all it ended up being is a Realtek Azalia R2.51 driver, which obviously didn't solve the problem, nor did I see a UAA Bus driver in DV after installing it.

I (and the tech), thought it was weird that my BIOS shows an HDMI setting under a S/PIDF header. Also the Realtek HD Audio Manager when hovering over the HDMI icon on it's GUI shows an interactive hand, but no tooltip like the optical and coaxial icons do, even when the Realtek HDMI Audio Device is set as default device.

The more I look at this the more it looks like there's something strange about my MB and/or Realtek not supporting HDMI unless maybe on an ASUS MB that actually has an HDMI port. It could also be a compat problem between the two regarding HDMI via AMD, or HDMI via ANY video card, but I'm def thinking this has to be a compat issue.

We ended the call by agreeing that the best test for now might be to try and locate someone with a laptop that has HDMI out to see if it's possible to get a connection between it, the AVR, and the TV without black screen, and better yet, with a usable multi channel AMD HD Audio Device.

This guy really leans toward Asrock MBs and said over several years he's not had any such strange problems with them. I've been kinda leaning toward Asrock or Gigabyte for my next MB, and maybe a 3570k, but I don't know if I want to do another DDR3 upgrade. His opinion was RAM is a very secondary type part as far as formats go.

The main things I want to solve with my next upgrade are 1) the HDMI audio issues from the GPU, 2) a better (Intel) SATA 3 controller, and of course 3) more modern CPU support. Thus since I've been wanting to upgrade the MB anyway for better SATA 3 and CPU support, it would seem the logical step.

I'd just like to find out ahead of time this go round if the one I choose is commonly successful as well with HDMI Audio thru the GPU, and preferably with both AMD and Nvidia, because come Maxwell, I really don't know which GPU camp I'll be with.

 

[Mussels]

if you're using a dedicated GPU, the BIOS settings have nothing to do with it. those settings are for your onboard GPU/soundcard.

 

[eidairaman1]

hdmi is such a pain in the ass, component cables work better

 

[Jetster]

hdmi is such a pain in the ass, component cables work better

What?

 

[Frag_Maniac]

@ Mussels,
Yet the only way I get the TV showing as an AMD HD Audio Device is if I disable onboard, explain that?

@eidairaman,
Component working better? How so? I've read fairly extensive info that suggests it depends on the application, and that either can deliver video equally well. Since component doesn't deliver audio at all, let alone lossless audio, it's no wonder why most first try to get HDMI working. If it doesn't, the solution more common than component is to leave the HDMI cable plugged in and just pipe the audio in via optical or coaxial.

Where PCs are concerned, multi channel audio implementation problems started well before HDMI ports were prevalent on GPUs. It started when MS yanked HAL support.

 

[Jetster]

2. Tried a 1.4 version HDMI cable straight into the AVR and still black screen.

This is your issue. Solve this and your done. What GPU you using? In fact list all your hardware

 

[Mussels]

@ Mussels,
Yet the only way I get the TV showing as an AMD HD Audio Device is if I disable onboard, explain that?

i've got three AMD systems in the house, two with onboard AMD + discrete AMD GPU's, then mine with dual discrete.

none of them have that issue. unless you've failed to tell it to show hidden devices, something must be wrong with your hardware - possibly your TV/receiver.

you keep mentioning an AVR without once naming it, or telling us its specs. maybe its the problem.

 

[Jetster]

Another thing that might be the issue is: If your AVR does not have HDMI Upscaling it will not work HDMI to Component. It has to be HDMI to HDMI. Component to Component

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Guys, look at my sys spec chart, it's all there, including GPU and AVR, the latter under sound card. Unfortunately TPU's spec chart is not AVR friendly. LOL

Be back to comment more after MasterChef.

 

[Jetster]

I'm watching it also. So if you have HDMI from your GPU to your RX-V371 then HDMI to your TV and dont have a picture. You need to call Yamaha. Does it have a picture if you connect directly to your TV?

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Yeah, of course it has picture straight from PC to TV, otherwise I couldn't see what I'm typing. LOL

I've already spoken to Yamaha techs more than once and they weren't sure why I get no picture when going through the AVR. The corporate techs be it Panasonic, Yamaha, etc, don't seem to be all that good at troubleshooting, and I've heard others say the same.

Manual for AVR if anyone's interested, though I actually put it in post # 14 on the 1st page of this thread. Apparently no one noticed: http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=sv&site=se.yamaha.com&asset_id=23367

 

[Mussels]

its kinda hard to tell remotely whats going on with so many variables.

if its working direct to the TV (minus surround sound) then the PC end seems ok. your problem seems to be with the AVR. its either setup wrong, or its faulty (no picture)

 

[Frag_Maniac]

your problem seems to be with the AVR. its either setup wrong, or its faulty (no picture)

Yeah regardless of the sound issue one would think if the AVR is supposed to support video pass through I'd at least get a picture when going through it then the TV.

That said, it still doesn't explain why I can't get a multi channel AMD HD Audio Device showing as plugged in in the Windows Sound panel.

 

[Mussels]

Yeah regardless of the sound issue one would think if the AVR is supposed to support video pass through I'd at least get a picture when going through it then the TV.

That said, it still doesn't explain why I can't get a multi channel AMD HD Audio Device showing as plugged in in the Windows Sound panel.

that could be part of the problem, a compatibility issue. have you seen the AVR work fully with any other devices?

 

[Frag_Maniac]

have you seen the AVR work fully with any other devices?

Haven't gotten that far yet. Like I said I'm going to see if any of my friends with laptops might have one with HDMI out and try using it first as the PC in the loop, then the display.

The latter might be a bit harder to do though since I think it takes a connection method other than HDMI to use a LT as a display.

 

[Dent1]

It still doesn't explain why I can't get a multi channel AMD HD Audio Device showing as plugged in in the Windows Sound panel.

I'm not going to read the entire thread, because that would be insanity

But to get multi channel PCM, the source still needs to be originally 5.0 or 5.1.

To clarify, you need to be watching DVD that features Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1. Then you can turn off the pass-through mode and listen in regular PCM 5.1. But the 5 channels need to be present first. If you're playing back a regular stereo MP3 file, PCM 5.1 will be unavailable whether your hardware supports it or not.

If it's hooked up to the TV, the television show broadcast needs still needs to be outputted in 5 channels to utilise PCM 5.1, likewise for any console connected to the receiver, the game needs 5 native channels present, otherwise the receiver will pick it up as PCM 2.0.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Some progress, but not enough to make a difference. Meaning I got video pass thru working via connecting the PC to HDMI 4 of the AVR, leaving the HDMI out on the AVR connected to the TV's main (ARC) input. In this way if I leave the AVR on HDMI 4, I can switch between TV and PC.

The problem however is I still get no HDMI audio passing through from the PC, and now I don't even see the AMD HD Audio Devices showing in the Windows Sound panel, even if I have S/PDIF set to HDMI in the BIOS.

Oddly enough, one of the links the tech I spoke to yesterday sent me from Yamaha's FAQ for this receiver in showing how to set the AVR up for video pass through from a PC, suggests that it has to be done in conjunction with an Optical audio cable.
http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-v371_black__u/5792/6041/

I then looked at the whole FAQ list for this AVR and the 2nd one shown titled "The HDMI audio and video signals on the RX-V371/HTR-3064 are not outputting on the Receiver speakers and the TV Screen", only talks about non PC sources such as cable, sat, Blu-ray, etc.
http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/index/id/6029/?search_query=RX-V371&current_page_id=1

So it would appear this AVR is not equipped to handle multi channel HDMI audio from a PC. I also noticed in the manual I linked earlier that there is a Euro version with the same model # that comes with calibration software and mic, which mine didn't. The US versions are even speced differently on THD.

So I'm just going to set it back the way I had it because I'll have the best chance of maintaining picture quality without passing thru the AVR. This setup also causes me to have to use about 5% underscan on PC, and I hear occasional pops too.

(EDITED)
Set it back the way it was, and I still don't see any AMD HD Audio Devices in the Windows Sound panel, weird. I know the AMD HDMI driver is installed because I've seen it in the AMD folder. Do you have to uninstall the Realtek ATI HDMI driver for it to show?

(EDITED 2)
OK, uninstalling the Realtek ATI HDMI driver got the AMD HD Audio Devices showing again in the Windows Sound panel. Just in the off chance they'll show as plugged in with the AVR set in video pass through, I'm going to hook it up that way one more time. If not, I'm done with this and the thread can be closed, unless anyone wants to recommend an affordable solution, but at this point I'm thinking the AVR would have to be replaced.

 

[Dent1]

So it would appear this AVR is not equipped to handle multi channel HDMI audio from a PC..

Read my above. I already explained. Nothing to do with the receiver, but the source.

 

[eidairaman1]

component cables utilize the sound card.

@ Mussels,
Yet the only way I get the TV showing as an AMD HD Audio Device is if I disable onboard, explain that?

@eidairaman,
Component working better? How so? I've read fairly extensive info that suggests it depends on the application, and that either can deliver video equally well. Since component doesn't deliver audio at all, let alone lossless audio, it's no wonder why most first try to get HDMI working. If it doesn't, the solution more common than component is to leave the HDMI cable plugged in and just pipe the audio in via optical or coaxial.

Where PCs are concerned, multi channel audio implementation problems started well before HDMI ports were prevalent on GPUs. It started when MS yanked HAL support.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

@Dent,
Tell me why then people are saying they get the multi channel config option in the Windows Sound panel when outputting from the HDMI port on the video card?

@eidairaman,
Component cables do not carry audio, that's why they are called Component Video cables and are colored red, blue, and green to signify specifically the video colors they carry.

 

[AsRock]

Select the device which is the AMD HDMI Output and click configure, wellt hats all i have to do and run a multi channel game and it should change.

And i have no idea why you have to use the realtek drivers and since i had my card only 1 version ( a beta ) had troubles for me.

 

[Dent1]

@Dent,
Tell me why then people are saying they get the multi channel config option in the Windows Sound panel when outputting from the HDMI port on the video card?

Because they either can't distinguish between PCM 2.0 and 0 multi channel or they're playing back material with 5-7 discrete channels already such as a bluray disc, hence why multi channel PCM is unlocked as the audio cues are already there.

Think of it like this. Multi Channel PCM, just means discrete 5 channels derived from lossless content. Front left, front right, rear left, rear right, and centre. How Is windows supposed to send the relevant information to the rear and centre channel when the MP3s you're playing only have instructions for the fronts?

What AsRock said above me was sort of correct, but it won't 100% solve you issue.

On my Onkyo, doing what AsRock said will enable multi channel for me too. But when I go play a MP3 because there is only 2 channels I get a bodged up remix. Playing a few games like Max Payne 3, the remix is so bad the dialogue doesn't come from the centre speaker like its supposed to but instead a weird ambient noise, again because there is no cue.

The only way so solve it was to use the DTS connect or DTS Live feature on my sound card. I know you're was complaining earlier about it being compressed but your logic is flawed because the bitrate and quality in general from games are compressed anyways. So you won't be getting lossless sound with multi channel unless the source is lossless to begin with i.e. a blue ray disc.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

"...run a multi channel game and it should change"

@AsRock,
Change? Are you saying if you configure it at desktop you only get the stereo option, and have to have a game running and minimized to see the 5.1 channel option?

I never said I have to use the Realtek driver, it's just one of the options I tried in my trouble shooting, and I also tried AMD HDMi with no Realtek driver installed, as I said.

@Dent,
All I know is people have said they can play games in multi channel 5.1 PCM, and I never said gaming with PCM would be losslees, I meant it would sound better with PCM because PCM itself is lossless, and therefore doesn't add any more compression.

I HAVE however often thought that because game audio is compressed, forgoing PCM is not nearly as big a deal as if it weren't. I play music in PCM 2.1, Yamaha's "Straight" mode, and sometimes I forget to put it back on 5.1 when I switch to gaming. Games played over 2.1 PCM don't sound hugely different than via DPLII, since you're starting out with a compressed signal.

As far as a sound card, not sure I'd want to spend more than $40 and I can't find any at that price range that have DD and DTS that are also good quality with fairly good SNR. There's a SIIG with like 96 SNR, but meh, I don't know, it doesn't even say what audio chipset it has.

 

[Dent1]

"...run a multi channel game and it should change"

@AsRock,
Change? Are you saying if you configure it at desktop you only get the stereo option, and have to have a game running and minimized to see the 5.1 channel option?

Yes that is what Asrock meant,

For example in Max Payne 3 the available audio selection is dependant on Window's Sound properties the speaker setup. A more specific example, if I select a stereo configuration within Window's sound properties then within Max Payne's audio menu only headphone and stereo are available. To unlock the surround sound option within Max Payne's audio menu I have to select a 5 or 7 channel configuration within Windows -This gives me Multi Channel highlighted on my receiver too but as explained earlier it's mixed incorrectly and the dialogue isn't doesn't come from the centre as it should be.

I never said gaming with PCM would be lossless, I meant it would sound better with PCM because PCM itself is lossless, and therefore doesn't add any more compression.

Dolby Digital won't add additional compression, the term compression you are misusing. We only say Dolby Digital is compressed because traditionally it's maximum bitrate and frequency was capped to make all 5 channels travel through a fibre cable. If your sources bitrate and frequency exceeds the specification, it won't recompress it, Dolby Digital just will not work.


If you're talking about PCM 2.0 vs Dolby Digital 2.0, then PCM 2.0 would be more crisper and less compressed on a theoretical level because Dolby Digital is capped at 48 kHz, where as PCM 2.0 can handle 24-bit/192 kHz and greater. But the source which you are listening to MP3s, games, CDs, the quality is lower than even Dolby Digitals specification so in reality there will be virtually no difference.

LPCM (multi channel PCM) to Dolby Digital True HD and DTS HD Masters which are found on bluray disc. But with the new HD standards, Dolby Digital True HD and DTS HD Masters which are also uncompressed and lossless there is no real benefit picking LPCM. Keep in mind the sound track needs to be in LPCM to output LPCM, likewise only a Dolby Digital True HD soundtrack can output Dolby Digital True HD.

sometimes I forget to put it back on 5.1 when I switch to gaming. Games played over 2.1 PCM don't sound hugely different than via DPLII, since you're starting out with a compressed signal.

It's not because of compressions, it's because Prologic IIx doesn't do much matrix to the front channels, only adds a center and a crappy attempt at forge rears. But the front right & left stays almost intact.


Also Prologic is done at the receiver level, so the high quality PCM 2.0 frequencies isn't interrupted by the limitations of the fibre/coaxial cable before getting up-mixed. Whereas the actual DD signal needs to be present and meet certain quality requirements before it goes through he fibre/coaxial cable otherwise it would fail at the receiver level.

As far as a sound card, not sure I'd want to spend more than $40 and I can't find any at that price range that have DD and DTS that are also good quality with fairly good SNR. There's a SIIG with like 96 SNR, but meh, I don't know, it doesn't even say what audio chipset it has.

I bought my ASUS Xonar DS 7.1 Sound on Ebay for about £20. It doesn't support Dolby Digital Live, but it supports the DTS equivalent, DTS connect.


You can then use your video cards HDMI output for pass-through of LPCM, DD True HD and DTS HD Masters content on authentic Bluray movies. So you get best of both worlds.

ASUS Xonar DS 7.1 Channels 24-bit 24 bit 44.10 kHz...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/37F9-Asus-X...=US_Sound_Cards_Internal_&hash=item56595f68c3
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-Xonar-...=US_Sound_Cards_Internal_&hash=item3f279ac9b0

 

[Frag_Maniac]

You appear to be describing what AsRock meant as different from what I meant though. The change I was asking about was whether the config option in the Windows Sound panel changes from stereo only to multi channel options when a game or other multi channel prog is running, not whether the game's audio options in the game menu changes. If the Windows Sound panel options don't change it won't matter, because that is the point where I reach an impasse. I also don't get why I can play my x64 movies in MPC-HC that are encoded with DD and get the AVR picking that up fine, without even configuring the Windows Sound panel to multi channel audio. I understand the DD itself is possible via the LAV plugins I use, but if you have to configure the Windows Sound panel to 5.1 for games, why wouldn't you have to for these x264 vids?

Actually I was comparing PCM to DPLII, since that was the scenario I was describing, and I'm fully aware DD has better channel separation and positional audio than DPLII. I was only referring to the differences in the clarity of sound itself, not the discreteness of channels or positional accuracy. Obviously DPLII is a sim matrix and not true surround, and I would rather not use it.

And yes a PCM option is found on some Blu-ray discs, esp concert discs, but I've never seen it in anything more than stereo.

On the sound card, I'd prefer DTS whenever it's an option, but unfortunately most games are DD, so to buy one that's only DTS and not DD would seem a waste to me.