How do you see Luna's market value from $10 billion to 0 within 3 days?

[Dr. Dro]

But it wouldn't be BTC anymore and wouldn't have backing of the market...so very different. Look at ETH and ETH classic. Or even BTC vs LTC. None of the forks come even close to the Original.

This happens because a hard fork is a rule change. Now where do you fit in financial stability in that mess? You don't. That's the entire initial argument. Due to... this:

Except each time the coin forks, you effectively invent another million+ coins out of nothingness.

The number of cryptocoins continued to grow through last year and the year before. Now we're entering a "recession" of coins it seems, where cryptocoins start to collapse in value and consolidate.

You are right, but this is something that occurs by design, since anyone can create a cryptocurrency out of thin air, there is no central authority to regulate the currency. Exchanges, which have grown attached to the stock market, have been more than just brokering trades - many have been actively manipulating currencies. These big exchange companies have largely taken place of central authorities, much to cryptobros' ideological dismay. In fact, Binance suspended Luna trading far before it entirely collapsed, after they've realized absolutely massive (in order of 99,9%) losses:

LUNA & UST Trading Suspended | Binance Support

Fellow Binancians, Binance will suspend spot trading for the LUNA/BUSD and UST/BUSD trading pairs at 08:30 AM (UTC) on 2022-05-13 . Withdrawals for LUNA and UST will open when the network becomes ...

www.binance.com

Forked or not, a currency is only valuable if there is a consensus of trust around its worth and viability, which Terra and Luna lost.

 

[dragontamer5788]

You are right, but this is something that occurs by design, since anyone can create a cryptocurrency out of thin air, there is no central authority to regulate the currency.

But it certainly kills the "There are only X amount of cryptocoins out there" argument. After all, we can hypothesize a future with twice as many BTC: such as the BTC vs BTC-cash fork that simply doubled the number of coins in existence. As communities fork off coins, they effectively create new coins and communities (and rules) out of thin air. ETH vs ETH-classic is another.

In practice, this means that the creation of cryptocoins created values and marketcaps out of nothingness. And thus, those valuations can return to their original state (nothingness), much like LUNA did.

 

[Kapone33]

I see it as progress because LUNA and UST were complete shit coins and those types of crypto need to go away entirely. 20% return, from what? On nothing, so lets print more UST to offset. LUNA was paying out 8 Million a day in interest and UST had to increase by that amount to keep balance, eventually it had to crash. I am honestly surprised it didn't crash faster. People that bought into this did zero research or and had zero understanding of supply/demand. Honestly it's horrible for those people that believed in it, but they for sure learned a valuable lesson.

Limited supply coins are where it is at. If unlimited or arbitrarily limited then there is no value and stay the F away from those types of coins. Like SHIB, every time a coin is used 2 more are free'd up...basically. SO right now there are 550 Trillion coins in circulation, that coin is also a shit coin...because unlimited supply, means zero demand.

Some people made lot's of money and lots of people have lost their shirt. Mining is not the same as speculation (investment). Regardless I am at the point where I have made back my investment. It can languish in the 37-39000 range for now but as long as Nicehash is viable I will be making profits. There is indeed a lot of fat on the market that needs to be trimmed though and the whole NFT is a crock as well as as these funds that are based entirely on a unregulated market. Which major economy will blink first and regulate it so that Bitcoin can go to $100000?

 

[Dr. Dro]

Some people made lot's of money and lots of people have lost their shirt. Mining is not the same as speculation (investment). Regardless I am at the point where I have made back my investment. It can languish in the 37-39000 range for now but as long as Nicehash is viable I will be making profits. There is indeed a lot of fat on the market that needs to be trimmed though and the whole NFT is a crock as well as as these funds that are based entirely on a unregulated market. Which major economy will blink first and regulate it so that Bitcoin can go to $100000?

The concept that anyone can say "investment" in anything crypto with a straight face baffles me, as well as... how can't anyone honestly see it for what it is, a ponzi of biblical proportions, justified by your post's very first sentence. It's taking greater fool theory to the absolute limit. NFTs and cryptocurrencies are one in the same, as well... this "distinction" between them just isn't vested in good faith arguments, either. The rhetoric is pretty much the same... mocked to perfection in South Park:

 

[Kapone33]

The concept that anyone can say "investment" in anything crypto with a straight face baffles me, as well as... how can't anyone honestly see it for what it is, a ponzi of biblical proportions, justified by your post's very first sentence. It's taking greater fool theory to the absolute limit. NFTs and cryptocurrencies are one in the same, as well... this "distinction" between them just isn't vested in good faith arguments, either. The rhetoric is pretty much the same... mocked to perfection in South Park:

I used to have a Vega 64 crossfire system that I could have used to mine while I was at work 6 years ago where would that be today? There have been Billions spent on the infrastructure to support Crypto currencies. Bitcoin is digitally real (Whatever that means) and established. I can put my Crypto into the bank and use it in real life (No Ponzi there). I have passive income of $25 at the cost of 6 100W lightbulbs a day and it helps me with my daughter's future. It is not my fault that my hobby became so expensive so yes I had to start mining to justify the cost of entry. On another note Rivian was ballyhooed and opened at $150., where is it today $26? The entire investment market is in a state of flux anyway but like I said there is a clear distinction between MIning and Investing in Mining speculation.

What is a NFT? Is it different than a portrait, stamp, postcard? Unfortunately the Greed co-efficient was applied heavily to that making it seem like they were the next thing to be in and some people lost their shirts greedily trying to make bank when the reality of what an NFT is set in. I mentioned Rivian on purpose as that was part of this script of digital adoption being the Golden Egg.

 

[Dr. Dro]

I used to have a Vega 64 crossfire system that I could have used to mine while I was at work 6 years ago where would that be today? There have been Billions spent on the infrastructure to support Crypto currencies. Bitcoin is digitally real (Whatever that means) and established. I can put my Crypto into the bank and use it in real life (No Ponzi there). I have passive income of $25 at the cost of 6 100W lightbulbs a day and it helps me with my daughter's future. It is not my fault that my hobby became so expensive so yes I had to start mining to justify the cost of entry. On another note Rivian was ballyhooed and opened at $150., where is it today $26? The entire investment market is in a state of flux anyway but like I said there is a clear distinction between MIning and Investing in Mining speculation.

What is a NFT? Is it different than a portrait, stamp, postcard? Unfortunately the Greed co-efficient was applied heavily to that making it seem like they were the next thing to be in and some people lost their shirts greedily trying to make bank when the reality of what an NFT is set in. I mentioned Rivian on purpose as that was part of this script of digital adoption being the Golden Egg.

I'm glad you've done it for a noble purpose, that was the initial idea, but large-scale operations... they just went against us all. Anyway, what makes an NFT different from a cryptocurrency token? Both are digitally generated at will and represent a completely abstract unit, in the blockchain. An NFT does not contain the data it is supposed to validate ownership of, it is simply a token that has that perceived function.

The fact you can deposit crypto and use it in real life is only because someone is willing to exchange these tokens for real money, it doesn't make it "digitally real", Bitcoin is simply the oldest crypto in which most others are hitched and hedged against. If BTC ever happens to collapse, the entire market will - and the higher its value, the higher the likelihood it is to crash, since it lacks any intrinsic value to begin with.

 

[Kapone33]

I'm glad you've done it for a noble purpose, that was the initial idea, but large-scale operations... they just went against us all. Anyway, what makes an NFT different from a cryptocurrency token? Both are digitally generated at will and represent a completely abstract unit, in the blockchain. An NFT does not contain the data it is supposed to validate ownership of, it is simply a token that has that perceived function.

The fact you can deposit crypto and use it in real life is only because someone is willing to exchange these tokens for real money, it doesn't make it "digitally real", Bitcoin is simply the oldest crypto in which most others are hitched and hedged against. If BTC ever happens to collapse, the entire market will - and the higher its value, the higher the likelihood it is to crash, since it lacks any intrinsic value to begin with.

The Greed co-efficient is real, the most disturbing that I read was some guys in Alberta that restarted the electricity on a Mine to run their operation. Or a Congressman accused of using Gorvernment PCs to mine Bitcoin. One of the things about Bitcoin is that it did have a very large foundation based on some desultory sources, like people living outside of the US that want to engage in the US economy through the benefit of illicit or otherwise unsavory activity. There have been Bitcoin ATMs in my neck of the Woods for at least 7 years (close to the Airport) now but trust me the banks where I live do not do anything Gray with me (I am not affluent enough to try to hide my money) so there is a real acceptance in all levels of society for Bitcoin which makes it real. It could crash but I doubt the super rich would want to lose their egg. There is a lot of propaganda in the space and many spell binders and spin doctors spouting false narratives.

 

[Vya Domus]

You do realize that inflation is a result of how the economy works right?

Inflation is the result of an ever expanding supply and not much else, the state of the economy is almost completely inconsequential, as I pointed out even when everything is up, GDP, stock market, employment, etc, most currencies still lose their value year after year. The fact that we have negative interest rates is absolutely bewildering and unnatural, I don't know how you could possibly call that "perfectly fine".

it will somehow correct itself

It can't and it wont, currencies will continue to lose their value to the point where people will have enough, the income of the majority of the population doesn't scale sufficiently with inflation. Look throughout history, every time ruling bodies decide to debased their currencies, civil war ensued soon after, it never ends well.

Sure, its not perfect, sure, it puts pressure on people.

The problem is that it puts pressure disproportionately on people, the poorer you are the worse it is and it never really gets any better. If you have investments you can shelter yourself from inflation since things like the stock market scale very well with inflation but most people can't, because they don't have much money to invest in the first place.

US Dollars being backed by gold caused the 1930s depression.

That's just not true, you can argue that the deflationary aspect of the currency made things worse once the crash happened and bank runs began but you cannot claim that it was the cause.

the gold standard and it was an economic disaster (see the great depression)

Again, not true.

 

[dorsetknob]

US Dollars being backed by gold caused the 1930s depression.

And there was me thinking and Believing that it was the De-Linking of various world currencys from the Gold Standard that caused rampent Inflation and that inflation was the root cause of the Depression.

 

[dragontamer5788]

And there was me thinking and Believing that it was the De-Linking of various world currencys from the Gold Standard that caused rampent Inflation and that inflation was the root cause of the Depression.

Considering that the Great Depression was a deflationary spiral, you got the entire story backwards. Let alone the history. USA delinked gold in Executive Order 6102, signed 1933, 4-years after the Great Crash of 1929 that traditionally serves as the starting point of the Great Depression.

EDIT: Prices dropped by 7% each year from 1930 through 1933, while the USA was on the gold standard. Lower prices means firing workers, since you can't sell your goods at the higher prices anymore, causing more unemployment, causing more people to fire workers, causing more job loss, causing lower prices as more people are unemployed.

But yes, goldbugs never were very well studied students of history. So their arguments and discussion points are always full of holes...

 

[P4-630]

How do you see Luna's market value from $10 billion to 0 within 3 days?

It's like magic

 

[dragontamer5788]

That's just not true, you can argue that the deflationary aspect of the currency made things worse once the crash happened and bank runs began but you cannot claim that it was the cause.

I think we can safely look at the timeframe of 1883 through 1933 (50 years), and see that the gold-standard was way more volatile and unstable than the period of 1933 to 1983.

The inability to change monetary supply when the economy booms/busts led to the panics/recessions of 1882, 1887, 1890, 1893, 1896, 1899, 1902, 1907, 1910, 1913, 1918 (okay, Spanish Flu + WW1 might have caused this one), 1920, 1923, 1926, and the "great" depression, 1929.

When we as a society saw that gold wasn't really all that it was cracked up to be in 1933, cut ourselves out of the gold standard and largely achieved a better life from that moment onwards

 

[Vayra86]

Inflation is the result of an ever expanding supply and not much else, the state of the economy is almost completely inconsequential, as I pointed out even when everything is up, GDP, stock market, employment, etc, most currencies still lose their value year after year. The fact that we have negative interest rates is absolutely bewildering and unnatural, I don't know how you could possibly call that "perfectly fine".



It can't and it wont, currencies will continue to lose their value to the point where people will have enough, the income of the majority of the population doesn't scale sufficiently with inflation. Look throughout history, every time ruling bodies decide to debased their currencies, civil war ensued soon after, it never ends well.



The problem is that it puts pressure disproportionately on people, the poorer you are the worse it is and it never really gets any better. If you have investments you can shelter yourself from inflation since things like the stock market scale very well with inflation but most people can't, because they don't have much money to invest in the first place.



That's just not true, you can argue that the deflationary aspect of the currency made things worse once the crash happened and bank runs began but you cannot claim that it was the cause.



Again, not true.

I agree on all of those points. Im not saying it is perfect or even great Im saying this is the consensus we landed on and you mention civil war, thats also what Im saying.
At the same time, throughout history the (power) balance between ruler and population had shifted heavily towards the populace; without shooting or having to consider shooting. Thats the progress carried by economic systems of checks and balances, and trade across the globe. People do have opportunity because of it.

So while seeing the same issues, I think we should also count our blessings and be realistic about the motive behind such Resets: it is to upset a balance; and the result of that is only that more fools and money get parted, it never ends well, replacing something with a potentially greater evil.