Hyperloop news.

[Frick]

The whole idea is a fail. It would be cheaper and faster to build a super fast train like used in Japan. It's cheaper to begin with, proven to work, no decompression hazard, no air toxicity hazard, no ridiculously long waiting to even board and start the trip etc.

Probably, but Musks crazy ideas seem to have a strange way of working out in the long run.

 

[Raevenlord]

Probably, but Musks crazy ideas seem to have a strange way of working out in the long run.

True to that. I have to admit I am a Musk fanboy. I think he is the businessman all should try to emulate: maintainging and growing the bottom line, but actually expanding and looking to improving humanity's future.

Ah. I'm simply an idealist I guess.

Anyway, Musk and his projects are something I closely follow. Even though I think the Hyperloop is the least revolutionary one of them (though the destroyed remnants of this system will look amazing on my sci-fi novel), one just has to admire the man's focus.

Neuralink, anyone? :drools:

 

[R0H1T]

If an explosive were to go off in it and nothing were in the direct line of fire of it, it actually wouldn't be bad unless one were to make contact with the hole (think high speed derailment). These things are moving faster than the speed of sound so the pressure wave wouldn't catch up to those already past the breach. Those that are heading towards the breach will be slowed by the increase in air pressure helping to slow them from hitting the breach. Overall, I think they're as safe as subways if not safer.

I think we're talking about different things, unless you're thinking of the same thing, since air leaking through the capsule(s) in a vast loop, minus air i.e. in a vacuum, will result in an explosive decompression. This would happen in space or the moon, if you weren't wearing your space suits. Though RejZoR's explanation sounds more reasonable but what happens after all the air has escaped, the process wouldn't take too much time I'd like to think.

I don't think so, so many things can go wrong now that I think about it, hyperloop or whatever other name they come up with atm sounds like a trip I wouldn't wanna take unless I'm high or intoxicated.

 

[RejZoR]

Probably, but Musks crazy ideas seem to have a strange way of working out in the long run.

If Tesla and PayPal work, that doens't mean this will. Mostly because Tesla and PayPal don't go against laws of physics. Hyperloop is trying to do that. It just tries to bypass so many limitations is just makes no sense at all. We don't have the right technology yet and we won't have it for quite a while. Space exploration is easy, it's just empty space which is already there. Creating vacuum on Earth with atmospheric pressure around, that's something you'll have a lot of problems with. You just need to use basic physics knowledge and some common sense to see the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

Because depressurizing entire tubes at such ridiculous lenghts just doesn't make sense as it'll take WAY too long. Solution to this would be a bulkhead section at stations, so you'd only have to depressurizing tiny section. The rest would have to be under CONSTANT vacuum. The section at stations would depressurizing to same level as the rest, open the bulkhead to connect both and move. But if there was maintenance required in main section, they'd have to let air in, do the maintenance and depressurize it again, meaning the thing wouldn't be operational for several days. Working in space suits inside Hyperloop doesn't seem like a logical thing even though they'd probably be forced to do in order to avoid long downtimes. Which also brings all the limitations of working in airless space, minus the low gravity.

And having entire Hyperloop depressurized at all times means incredible forces on the tube itself, the entire time. Which just calls for disaster...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I think we're talking about different things, unless you're thinking of the same thing, since air leaking through the capsule(s) in a vast loop, minus air i.e. in a vacuum, will result in an explosive decompression. This would happen in space or the moon, if you weren't wearing your space suits. Though RejZoR's explanation sounds more reasonable but what happens after all the air has escaped, the process wouldn't take too much time I'd like to think.

I don't think so, so many things can go wrong now that I think about it, hyperloop or whatever other name they come up with atm sounds like a trip I wouldn't wanna take unless I'm high or intoxicated.

Hyperloop is a partial vacuum, not a complete vacuum. The greater the pressure differential, the harder it is to maintain.

Space and moon, the only air is what is contained in the suit. A hole in the suit leads to asphyxiation, nothing explosive.

Bare in mind that the act of recycling air and maintaining the partial vacuum can also aid in vehicle transportation. We already overpressurize automobile tunnels to prevent them from becoming toxic. Hyperloop is basically the opposite where the vehicle itself pressurizes for its occupants.

Bare in mind that vehicles can move through the hyperloop if the pressure is atmospheric. They just won't be able to move as fast/efficiently.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

'Based on the high-quality submissions and overwhelming enthusiasm surrounding the first competition, SpaceX has moved forward with Hyperloop Pod Competition II, which will culminate in a second competition on August 25-27, 2017, at SpaceX’s Hyperloop track,' the firm revealed today.

'Hyperloop Competition II focus on a single criterion: maximum speed.

'The competition will include new and returning student teams, some of which have already built and tested their pods during the first competition.'
https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/14/spacex-hyperloop-pod-competition-2-top-speed/


My money is on this lot for the win
https://badgerloop.com/#/home

 

[dorsetknob]

My money is on this lot for the win
https://badgerloop.com/#/home

and there was me thinking CAPS is posting links to badger flavored SPAM

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

Hyperloop One has completed the first successful test of the passenger pod for its radical transport system, marking what the firm says is the debut of 'the dawn of a new era of transportation'.

Last month the firm carried out a low speed test of its test tunnel, but now it has loaded the XP-1 passenger pod for its first high speed test.

The Hyperloop One XP-1, the company's first-generation pod, accelerated for 300 meters and glided above the track using magnetic levitation before braking and coming to a gradual stop.

The July 29, 2017, tests hit record test speeds traveling nearly the full distance of the 500-meter DevLoop track in the Nevada desert.

'This is the beginning, and the dawn of a new era of transportation,' said Shervin Pishevar, Executive Chairman and Co-founder of Hyperloop One.

'We've reached historic speeds of 310 km an hour, and we're excited to finally show the world the XP-1 going into the Hyperloop One tube.

'When you hear the sound of the Hyperloop One, you hear the sound of the future.'

During phase 2 on July 29th, Hyperloop One achieved record speeds, in a tube depressurized down to the equivalent of air at 200,000 feet above sea level.

All components of the system were successfully tested, including the highly efficient electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension and vacuum system.

With Hyperloop One, passengers and cargo are loaded into a pod, and accelerate gradually via electric propulsion through a low-pressure tube.

The pod quickly lifts above the track using magnetic levitation and glides at airline speeds for long distances due to ultra-low aerodynamic drag.

The test took place in the early morning of May 12 at the test site just outside of Las Vegas, where the firm says a complete systems test is now soon to follow.

'Ever since we started the company three years ago, we've been aimed at this moment, the instant when we achieve controlled propulsion and levitation of a Hyperloop One vehicle in a vacuum environment,' wrote Hyperloop One co-founders josh Giegel and Shervin Pishevar, in a blog post.

Inside a 1,640-foot-long tube, the firm has so far installed nearly 1,000 feet of motor.

The tube is able to reduce air pressure 'down to the equivalent of 200,000 feet above sea level,' which will ultimately enable top speeds of about 250 miles per hour at the DevLoop track.

The new XP-1 vehicle, the pod that will carry out these tests, has a carbon fiber and aluminium aeroshell with a levitating chassis, for 'suspension, lift, guidance and propulsion,' the blog post explains.

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/we-made-history-two-minutes-after-midnight-may-12

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

Musk shared footage from the Hyperloop competition this weekend, with a look at a pod test from the winning team, WARR, which hit more than 200 miles per hour in the .8 mile-long tube.

 

[RejZoR]

Just a reminder that Shinkansen trains can reach up to 375 MPH at full atmospheric pressure. Hyperloop has very big boots to fill in with all the fancy stuff they are bragging about so much and has yet to show any kind of results...

 

[notb]

Musk shared footage from the Hyperloop competition this weekend, with a look at a pod test from the winning team, WARR, which hit more than 200 miles per hour in the .8 mile-long tube.

A very nice acceleration... for cargo...
I also wonder how will they fix cornering. Different pods will have different weight and cargo, but since this is a "maglev", they will have to corner at the same angle.
Maglev trains adjust speed for cornering, but the weight variance is not that great (since the train is pretty heavy itself).

The tube is able to reduce air pressure 'down to the equivalent of 200,000 feet above sea level,' which will ultimately enable top speeds of about 250 miles per hour at the DevLoop track.

Last time I checked the planned pressure was around 100Pa - that's something typical at 48km ~= 160kft. This was already a concern.
The fact that they have to go much "higher" is fairly worrying, because that means just 20Pa...
And being able to achieve just 250mph at such low pressure is a disaster. The whole Hyperloop idea got popularity (and funds...) because it was expected to hit 700-800 mph.

 

[MIRTAZAPINE]

I have huge doubt for this hyperloop. I love new technology and I don't doubt that the hyperloop being impossible. It engineering possible with current technolgy but extremely economically not feasible. To even attain the almost spacelike vacuum required you would need the tubes to made as thick as a submarine hull at least with reinforcing rings to overcome atmospheric pressure as well as making point of failure harder to achieve for safety reasons.

Add to this the train stops requiring airtight lock and doors for it to keep the vacuum in. You creating space like conditions on Earth in the tube.

So this so economically outrageous. Trains with better aerodynamic bodies would be alot cheaper and so much more easily done with less safety issues.


Edit: Thinking about this if there is submarine engineers is combined with train engineers I see this project would have a great engineering start. Looking at current efforts it does not look too good.

 

[notb]

So this so economically outrageous. Trains with better aerodynamic bodies would be alot cheaper and so much more easily done with less safety issues.

Well... the main issue with Hyperloop is that it's not really solving any problem. It will not make something entirely new possible (like ships, cars and planes did), nor will it make it cheap and massive (like trains do).

It'll be competing with currently available solutions. It might be better in some specific cases (like ~500km inter-city journeys on flat, uninhabited terrain), but much worse in everything else.

There is a (highly) possible future scenario in which we all travel in this kind of unified, small, autonomous pods - both to work and to the next country. But a long tunnel depressurized to 20Pa is unlikely a part of it.

That said, I kind of understand why Hyperloop got so much traction in US - California in particular. American trains are notoriously slow and Americans do travel a lot between their cities (compared to other nations). So a "hyperloop triangle" connecting San Francisco, Los Angeles and Las Vegas would clearly work. Few other cities (like Phoenix) could join as well.
Also, thanks to high sunlight exposure in that area, hyperloop tubes covered with solar panels (as Musk plans) would make sense.

I just don't think this would make sense in Europe, which is way more crowded and has much faster trains. Maybe for airport connections...

 

[Steevo]

It would be more energy efficient to use the solar panels to create hydrogen and burn that for heavier than air flight. By the time you pump all the air out, each and every time a train arrives or leaves, accelerate it, decelerate it (not the technical term I know) and the issues they are going to have with differential expansion and contraction.... the amount of concrete (CO2 intensive) needed to build and support it, the wiring, panels, local ecosystem disruption, fences required to keep people away, etc.....

Its the best pipe dream.

 

[RejZoR]

It took them half a day to depressurize a tiny short segment. Only feasible way would be to have main pipe under constant low pressure/vacuum and depressurize/pressurize only bulkheads at stations. Basically, when this "train" would stop, doors would close in front and behind it, pressurize only that segment and do the reverse when people are boarded. I just see those bulheads as a danger then. Also, when they'll be doing maintenance, this would mean they'd have to pressurize ENTIRE thing. Which could take days just to depressurize again. It's just a VERY impractical design either way.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

It took them half a day to depressurize a tiny short segment. Only feasible way would be to have main pipe under constant low pressure/vacuum and depressurize/pressurize only bulkheads at stations. Basically, when this "train" would stop, doors would close in front and behind it, pressurize only that segment and do the reverse when people are boarded. I just see those bulheads as a danger then. Also, when they'll be doing maintenance, this would mean they'd have to pressurize ENTIRE thing. Which could take days just to depressurize again. It's just a VERY impractical design either way.

The way you describe how *you* think it works really does make it impractical, but I'm sure they are not showing us everything. Give these credit, they are smarter then you.

There will be seals in place so they dont have to de/presurize the entire tube, it would be really stupid to design it that way.

 

[RejZoR]

What "seals"? You can't just place magical "seals" in a tube where a "tube train" is expected to move through. What are you going to be sealing it from and more importantly, how? Just saying "uh oh they are smarter" doesn't really explain anything. Maybe I'm not an engineer on paper, but I'm not stupid. If you depressurize some structure and you want to move passengers in and out of it, you need some sort of mechanism to achieve that. After seeing they needed like 8 hours to depressurize just few 10 meters of the tube, I knew they'll need different approach to achieve low vacuum without "draining" entire several hundred miles long tube which would take days even with pumps every few 100 meters. Only way to achieve that is by using bulkheads at "train stations" so they can have the main tube depressurized at all times and they only need to pressurize/depressurize small sections at the stations, possibly only taking few seconds to a minute or two with high performance pumps. Similar to how pressurization chambers on space station or underwater stations are designed/used. I see no other method to bridge two spaces at different atmospheric pressures.

 

[notb]

There will be seals in place so they dont have to de/presurize the entire tube, it would be really stupid to design it that way.

I think what you mean by "seal" is an airlock. If so, you're right - that's how these systems are meant to work.
But @RejZoR talks about both the "stations" and the tunnel. The tunnel is a continuous structure and it's very unlikely there will be any "locks" that would make it possible to depressurize small segments. Even if they existed (not that hard to imagine and build them), they won't be fast enough in an emergency depressurization (or a leak).

Only feasible way would be to have main pipe under constant low pressure/vacuum and depressurize/pressurize only bulkheads at stations.

Obviously yes. Furthermore, you don't want pressure in the whole tunnel to be changing all the time - it would kill the structure way faster than keeping constant 20Pa or so.
That said...

Basically, when this "train" would stop, doors would close in front and behind it, pressurize only that segment and do the reverse when people are boarded.

This is still fairly complicated and would take a while. Impossible to start a pod every 30 seconds like Musk wants to.
At least 2 solutions:
1) a sealed entrance system to the pod ("corridor") - much like entrance systems in submarines or spaceships,
2) depressurizing not by pumps but by expansion, which would simply need a larger tank with slightly lower pressure (this one with pumps).

And there are other issues as well. Like when something goes wrong and the maglev propulsion is switched off - the pods will switch to tiny electric motors - traveling at maybe 30 km/h, maybe a bit faster. Think about it... you're trapped in a very, very tiny pod, in a tunnel in the middle of a desert. They said you'll be in Las Vegas in 40 minutes, but it'll take 10 hours. There is no bathroom, there is no food or water... Actually, you can't even stand up and straighten your legs - most hyperloop designes are seated only, because you're not allowed to release your seatbelt during the normal travel anyway...

But I love the project. I love all the tiny problems that scientists and engineers will have to solve to make this feasible. Even if hyperloop turns out to be a failure, this will be such an excellent exercise for human intelligence. And - possibly - a mine of useful inventions. For example they will have to develop a much better solution for oxygen masks than the one we have on planes today - I'm sure there will be a way to use this outside the project.

And make no mistake - we might have been traveling to space for decades, but hyperloop is in many ways a lot more difficult.

IF you remove the low pressure element... you still end up with an interesting transportation system. Actually it's a lot more possible, futuristic and elastic. It's likely that we'll travel by "pods" everywhere in the future - both in tunnels and in open air. So the whole idea is good. It's just that Musk needed high speeds to make this attractive to investors.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I think what you mean by "seal" is an airlock. If so, you're right - that's how these systems are meant to work.
But @RejZoR talks about both the "stations" and the tunnel. The tunnel is a continuous structure and it's very unlikely there will be any "locks" that would make it possible to depressurize small segments. Even if they existed (not that hard to imagine and build them), they won't be fast enough in an emergency depressurization (or a leak).

I expect there will be locks every mile or so that automatically close, equalize pressure, and open for cars to pass by. Stations would be built on side-rails with gated locks to maintain low pressure on the main lines.

And yeah, I think the opinion that Hyperloop is a "pipe dream" is true. The partial vacuum is too costly to maintain for the benefit it offers. The energy spent on maintaining the partial vacuum is likely better off put into the cars themselves at atmospheric pressure.


There's absolutely nothing impressive about that video. Cars can do the same thing sans the vacuum:

Hyperloop WARR doesn't accelerate faster but it did brake faster.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Musk is an excellent Idea man, but poor with the whole actual implementation.

Tesla and SpaceX are a cadre of engineers making his vision a reality. The Hyperloop is not a practical vision, because it goes against physics.

1) The tube is long, and thus will experience multiple temperatures. Materials expand and contract in variable temperatures. If you doubt this, go to a long bridge and look at the expansion joints at each end which connects to land. Now instead of a few thousand feet of bridge, imagine a thousand miles of metal tube. Variations in expansion mean that you've got to account for hundreds of feet of variation, in a device that must be sealed. This didn't work on the SR-71 Blackbird (they leaked fuel constantly so that at temperature they were sealed), and won't work on a tube across California.
2) Earthquakes. Geological instability is a huge concern, when your cushion for error is a few inches at most. Ever wonder why a rifle is rifled? Incongruity within the barrel creates friction, causing linear momentum to be converted into rotational momentum. The difference is a bullet is meant to kill something, while this is supposed to be transit.

3) Vacuum. People seem to not get this, but the level of vacuum here isn't something you can create with a small motor. The proposed vacuum is more akin to space than anything else. The potential energy in said vacuum, simply stored by preventing the surrounding atmosphere from entering, is huge. If the vacuum is breached it isn't just one piece of the track that is destroyed, and the danger isn't a compression wave. Atmospheric pressure exposure would generate a huge variation in temperature, as air streamed in. The shock wave of air rushing in would not gently stop cars, but slam into them travelling fast enough to shred them. Air resistance is represented by F = (air density)(drag)(area)(velocity)^2/2. This means that the velocity of the car+velocity of the oncoming air would be what is experienced. These pods weigh 300 Kg. I would not guess that they are designed to stop the associated forces. I would guess that a steel block wouldn't be able to withstand those forces. The image of "gently slowing down" is patently incorrect.
4) Energy neutral? This is the same stupidity as solar roadways. Your fridge at home has a pump that is capable of a few atmospheres of pressure. Run it constantly, with a solar panel, and I'll believe this insanity. You've got half the day for sun. You've got to generate enough energy to maintain bullet velocities, while overcoming internal resistance. The idea of decreasing resistances with a vacuum is novel, for about 100 years ago. (kinetic energy)=mv^2. Friction is a function of air resistance and other kinetic resistances. The faster you go, the more resistance you experience. Doing some simple thinking, this means that the only way you'd generate energy is if the tube never decompressed, the resistance would be near 0, and you had a drive system with virtually no hysteresis or other losses. A maglev system in a perfect vacuum is not capable of this with current materials and a lack of huge investment.

5) The testing is a dud. Watch the videos. For the same amount of energy, in less time, I can walk. They traveled less than a few hundred feet, after a huge chunk of time creating the vacuum. There's a difference between a proof of concept, and demonstration of fighting physics. Musk has already demonstrated he can't make it work, by having students design the vehicles. If he had a working model we wouldn't be seeing such a huge reaction to this supposed "success," we'd be seeing the test tube running at somewhere near the quoted performance.
6) Musk has not accounted for the human factor. Tesla is for the rich, who can blow money on a toy. The "family" version of the vehicle has yet to be embraced. SpaceX is at best a very expensive NASA replacement. Paypal was a piece of software that to this day is struggling to find its footing between the darkest markets and legitimacy. Musk is an idea man, with little in the way of realistic goals. This has served him well, but this is a stupid dream. It would take virtually nothing to make this idea fail, and the failures would be...let's call them less game of thrones and more frog in a blender level gory. If people are afraid for what happens in a plane crash, let them see one pod slam into an atmospheric pressure wave at speed. Those people who have....more rural...backgrounds might know what happens when a large caliber bullet hits a prairie dog. Imagine that human size. The flow resistance from the fluids of the body generates enough force that the body functionally pops.


So we are clear, make this a high speed train that doesn't stop in every other town and we'd be better off. As was said before, Musk is trying to hide the train with science because the average US citizen believes all trains suck as much as Amtrack. After a year in Europe, you'd be a fool not to acquiesce to trains over planes. It doesn't take long to understand that a 200 mph train, versus a 288 mph plane, without a huge TSA wait and take-off/landing would mean trains are a better time to distance equation for any transit going less than half of the width of the continental US (as the crow flies). Even building in inefficiency, going across California as advertised would be infinitely cheaper and safer with a maglev train rather than the imagined Hyperloop.

As a catastrophic image, imagine a single idiot with a bomb. Said bomb doesn't breach the tube, but it does breach the pod. Death for those inside would be....let's call it an act of mercy. Maybe the pod is constructed out of aluminum to save on weight. A small bottle of mercury and hydrochloric acid could breach the walls of the pod. Now that we've seen the worst, let's cross our fingers and hope Musk isn't as stupid as the people behind solar roadways. I don't hold that hope highly, but I'm hoping that human lives aren't expended before somebody decides that the proposed idea isn't feasible right now. Never thought I'd praise solar roadways, but at least their scam didn't cost human lives...hopefully the Hyperloop can say the same.

 

[RejZoR]

With aluminium construction, you don't even need a bomb. Just some galium that would deteriorate the structure over time until it would catastrophically fail. I doubt train stations would do metal detector checks like airports...

PayPal works, so does Tesla. But they don't go against the laws of physics. They are just refined things of stuff we already had/have. Doing train travel in low pressure tubes is neither. There were some concepts and probably test tries, but people just gave up coz it wasn't practical. And still isn't. And I very much doubt it'll ever be.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Tesla doesn't work. Company has only reported a profit in a single quarter of its existence so far.

There were many rumors stemming from the 1970s about nuclear subterrene boring machines which could be made into a near complete vacuum. It would allow for travel at 1000s of miles per hour underground connecting military installations at major cities.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

What "seals"? You can't just place magical "seals" in a tube where a "tube train" is expected to move through. What are you going to be sealing it from and more importantly, how? Just saying "uh oh they are smarter" doesn't really explain anything. Maybe I'm not an engineer on paper, but I'm not stupid. If you depressurize some structure and you want to move passengers in and out of it, you need some sort of mechanism to achieve that. After seeing they needed like 8 hours to depressurize just few 10 meters of the tube, I knew they'll need different approach to achieve low vacuum without "draining" entire several hundred miles long tube which would take days even with pumps every few 100 meters. Only way to achieve that is by using bulkheads at "train stations" so they can have the main tube depressurized at all times and they only need to pressurize/depressurize small sections at the stations, possibly only taking few seconds to a minute or two with high performance pumps. Similar to how pressurization chambers on space station or underwater stations are designed/used. I see no other method to bridge two spaces at different atmospheric pressures.

What you are complaining about is a TEST tube so no none of the obvious "things" required to make this work are not in place. This tube was meant to test speeds and the technology involved. Your other complaint involve practical usage and how to implement that, Im sure that even prior to build this TEST tube the people behind already figured that out and isnt part of this particular test phase. SO ya, my guess is that they are way ahead of you on everything you pointed out.

This didn't work on the SR-71 Blackbird (they leaked fuel constantly so that at temperature they were sealed), and won't work on a tube across California.

iirc, It was purposely designed this way so that at higher altitudes the tanks wouldnt rupture.

 

[RejZoR]

If they had a functional features, they wouldn't let test observers be bored for 8 hours as they pump out some air...