Impasse installing a W5000

[ColinB123]

Hi,
I'll have to ask those with long memories to help me out on this (apart from "no chance"!)

I'm trying to create a WinXP system to support my (retired) brother's wish to fire up an old Inventor app: it's only licensed for WinXP. He's a civil engineer with a bunch of designs. I've bought a system based on Gigabyte's GA-Z77-D3H motherboard and a ATI/AMD FirePro W5000 (FireGL V) graphics card (new from China....). It's actually a beautiful card! I've bought these components because they all have WinXP drivers, still.

I've managed to create a WinXP system (thank you nlite, for your slipstreaming app)
I can install the W5000 on a modern system (B450, Win11, pcie v3 x16 etc), and it all looks good.

I can install the W5000 on the target-system (D3H)'s secondary x16 card slot, running at v1 x4, with those ancient x86 Catalyst drivers on this WinXP system.
It is 'found' during boot, and I can manage the BIOS settings.

But for the life of me, I can't get it to work in the primary x16 slot at any v1/2/3 setting. This Intel Core i5 2400 system has an IGP, and switching it on or off in the BIOS has no effect. I can't get to the BIOS, and of course, it never gets to the WinXP login.

Do I just need another ATI card in the primary slot? (I have an nVidia card, but remember well the battles between manufacturers such that you could never load both Catalyst and nV Control Panel on the same system) Is there some BIOS setting I'm missing? Was the W5000 never intended as a primary driver?

Thank you GPU-Z, too!

 

[Caring1]

Is XP 32 bit or 64?
That's all I can think of, if the Graphics driver is 64 bit it won't work on a 32 bit version of XP.

 

[ColinB123]

Thanks for replying.
I'm using the 32-bit version of WinXP and the 32-bit XP driver for the W5000 - both quite ancient! Unlike modern 'Windowses', which install drivers "automatically", on WinXP you actually have to find the driver location which sits in a x86/x64 or XP32/XP64 directory. But yes, these drivers live in the same downloaded file from AMD's site.

I don't think it's a driver issue, because I can see the BIOS (after hitting f2) on loading, and can boot into WinXP, when the W5000 is installed in the secondary (x4) slot in the motherboard. I wrote the initial thread message while on this system, showing the GPU-Z info (captured using the old Print Screen method to copy/paste into MSPaint....)

The problem arises when the W5000 is moved to it's "proper" place on the primary graphics slot (x16). Nothing. Nada. No f2 BIOS screen. No WinXP login window. Steam out of ears.....I've tried toggling the v1/v2/v3/Auto switches in the BIOS for this PEG slot. I've tried toggling the IGP on/off switch (it works as intended on the IGP HDMI output). I can't think of anything else to switch on/off to get the BIOS to 'see' this w5000 in this slot on this D3H motherboard. It even works on a primary slot on a modern B450 motherboard, at v3 x16. Just not in the D3H primary slot.

 

[QuietBob]

Unlike modern 'Windowses', which install drivers "automatically", on WinXP you actually have to find the driver location which sits in a x86/x64 or XP32/XP64 directory.

Not quite sure what you did there. When you download and unpack the driver, it should look like this:

When you run setup.exe it should automatically pick the relevant drivers for your hardware and system architecture.

Do you have any other expansion cards installed? In the BIOS, Peripherals tab, have you tried setting Init Display First to PEG?

 

[skizzo]

can you confirm that another GPU works in the x16 slot? what I'm after is proving that slot is working properly.
you have proven the W5000 GPU works by installing it on a B450 motherboard (as well as the Z77 but on x4 slot), now you need to prove the Z77 motherboard x16 slot works with another GPU, you said you have a nVidia GPU so I'd try that for starters. if a GPU other than the W5000 works in the x16 slot then that proves you have a setting (I wouldn't know what setting) is set wrong or it is genuinely incompatible...for reasons unknown though since it works in x4 slot. looks like this card has no need for aux power, there could be some chance of power not being delivered properly to the x16 slot? so def wanna make sure the slot works with another GPU

I agree about the driver, it shouldn't be a driver issue since the W5000 works fine when installed to a x4 slot when booting to the same OS installation. if the driver was corrupted or incompatible it wouldn't matter what slot the GPU was installed in, it wouldn't work in any slot

 

[ColinB123]

Not quite sure what you did there. When you download and unpack the driver, it should look like this:

View attachment 221738
When you run setup.exe it should automatically pick the relevant drivers for your hardware and system architecture.

Do you have any other expansion cards installed? In the BIOS, Peripherals tab, have you tried setting Init Display First to PEG?

Thank you Bob,
Yes you're right, in the AMD package, it's as you describe.

Any other expansion cards? I first tried with an Nvidia card in the primary graphics slot (the system came with that card). Of course, Nvidia and AMD/ATI don't seem to play together, and I could never get Catalyst to load properly with the W5000 in the secondary x4 slot. After that I tried the W5000 in the primary slot: no deal, whether I set IGP to off (its an Intel cpu), or set Init Display to PEG. I think I could try to run through all those combinations again, in case I missed something. So I'll try that.

can you confirm that another GPU works in the x16 slot? what I'm after is proving that slot is working properly.
you have proven the W5000 GPU works by installing it on a B450 motherboard (as well as the Z77 but on x4 slot), now you need to prove the Z77 motherboard x16 slot works with another GPU, you said you have a nVidia GPU so I'd try that for starters. if a GPU other than the W5000 works in the x16 slot then that proves you have a setting (I wouldn't know what setting) is set wrong or it is genuinely incompatible...for reasons unknown though since it works in x4 slot. looks like this card has no need for aux power, there could be some chance of power not being delivered properly to the x16 slot? so def wanna make sure the slot works with another GPU

I agree about the driver, it shouldn't be a driver issue since the W5000 works fine when installed to a x4 slot when booting to the same OS installation. if the driver was corrupted or incompatible it wouldn't matter what slot the GPU was installed in, it wouldn't work in any slot

Yes, an nVidia card nvs610 works in the primary slot. It came with the system and works in both Win10Pro and WinXP. I can't get Catalyst to install properly with the nVidia card there.

I'm buying an ATI card (with 32-bit drivers) off ebay, to see if these can play together, but I really want the W5000 in the primary slot.
Thanks for both of the responses: I'll report back on any progress.

 

[DesertSweeper]

Wild guess but...your combo might point to the problem. If you look at the specs of the mobo you bought it states that the first PCIeX16 slot operates at PCIe 2 specs when you are using a sandybridge cpu. And the nvidia nvs card you have is in fact a PCIe v2 GPU while the W5000 is PCIe V3. Now yes of course the AMD GPU SHOULD work happily at V2 standards...but who knows, it may be fussy...I see a fe hits on googling that card in a PCIe V2 slot and see some complaints - maybe unrelated. Also have you updated the BIOS in the mobo? And is there maybe a UEFI-only issue in slot-1?

 

[ColinB123]

Thanks Sweeper, (I'm more of a dessert-sweeper!),

By George, I think you've got it! (this shows my age). Yes, the W5000 happily runs at PCIe3 (see below, when in my B450M, which is snapshot while running a graphics benchmark, though it drops down to 1.1 on idle), and as I have a Sandy Bridge, only v2 is supported (though I've set v2 and v1 in the BIOS without success). So I'm going to try out a 3rd generation cpu from ebay, and I'll report back! Also got a v2 V4800 on order (all of £16....), so I hope I'm covering the bases.

Thanks for pointing this out. (Defeated by an asterisk!!!)

 

[Caring1]

Your GPU appears to be UEFI only.
Watch this, it may help.

 

[DesertSweeper]

Your GPU appears to be UEFI only.
Watch this, it may help.

This is why I said "And is there maybe a UEFI-only issue in slot-1?" because it is strange that it works in the other slots despite non-uefi

 

[ColinB123]

Thanks guys,

I'm awaiting the 'new' old hardware to see if they change anything. I'll definitely report back. I'm not sure why the UEFI bit is set in GPU-z: ie the relevant rules. I'm also trying to dual-boot the system, but I think that may not be possible: only to select a boot drive at bios load time. Currently the system is on the floor while I sort out a drive cage that has been glued in ...... and is facing the wrong way (ie, it stops any airflow from the main front 200mm fan). The drill is required. Drilling metal and motherboards don't like each other!!

 

[ColinB123]

This is why I said "And is there maybe a UEFI-only issue in slot-1?" because it is strange that it works in the other slots despite non-uefi

Right: time for a report!! And a plea for help.

Generally, the hints have been most helpful, but I haven't been able to resolve some key issues, and may not be able to do so.

1. The point about Ivy Bridge being needed to support PCI-e v3 was spot on. I bought a 3770 on ebay, and that resolved that issue. It has a much better memory controller that allowed me, for the first time, to get a dual-ranked pair running. It also introduced me to the black art of getting a multi-processor kernel running in WinXP! I couldn't understand why everything was going so slowly!
2. A little side-trip to the Wayback Machine to find a file needed to build an XP disk that loaded and could create the correct partition image.
3. I have 2 non-UEFI graphics cards: an old GT610 that came with the purchased system, and a ATI V4800 that came off ebay. There are 3 UEFI cards: the intended target ATI/AMD W5000, a previous GTX1050Ti from my own PC, and an AMD/ATI HD5870. The 3770 chip includes an IntelHD 4000 integrated graphics.

Basically, NOTHING works at x16 in the primary slot except the small non-UEFI nVidia GT610. Not even a GTX1050Ti under Win10!

Everything works at x4 in the secondary slot (where the PCIe slot speed is selected in the BIOS as x4: only x1,x4 available)

Where the card is recognised at all in the primary slot, it's at x1. v1, v2, v3 will depend on the card.

Having cards together (one in primary, one in secondary x16 slot) makes no difference. Disabling drivers has no impact either (see youtube example).

So I'm starting to think I have restrictions in the hardware/BIOS. BUT the 610 works OK at x16 by itself!
The BIOS has a number of selections:
OS Type: Win8, Win8 WHQL, other OS. For WinXP, I've chosen "Other OS"
Boot mode selection: UEFI & Legacy, Legacy Only, UEFI only. I've chosen UEFI and Legacy to support alternative boots from 2 disks (one MBR, one GPT). It means my brother has a useful system (Win10) when he's done with the WinXP/Inventor activity.
Storage Boot option Control: Disabled, UEFI only, Legacy Only, Legacy First, UEFI first. I've chosen Legacy Only.
Other PCI Device ROM Priority. UEFI OpROM, Legacy OpROM. I've chosen UEFI OpROM.

As you can see, there are many combinations that could be tried. I have little idea what they mean or imply. Additionally, Intel's Management Engine could play a role in determining hardware/driver support.

I was really hoping to get x4 working in the secondary slot, and x16 working in the primary slot. x1 doesn't really cut it. I've tried 3 different BIOS upgrades. This is a Gigabyte GA-Z77-G3H rev1.1. I know this board went through some revisions, with the 2 PCI slots (rev 1.1) being replaced by 1xPCI32+ 1xPCIE16 etc. HWInfo seems to think there are lots of PCIe busses, but maybe they're taken up with mSata, Ethernet, the IntelHD 4000 etc. and there's not a lot left over for graphics.

Regards,

 

[DesertSweeper]

Hmmm I am old and easily confused. Take a step back...are you saying that after the CPU upgrade the computer is faster and the W5000 finally works in slot 1, but is not running at X16?

Ok wait a moment - that first slot probably shares lanes with SATA so try to move your drive over to a higher SATA port and disable the M2 slot for what is worth. So I think the SATA2 pots (4 of them) are on one controller and the SATA3 ports (2 of them) on another. And maybe one of the controllers shares lanes with the PCIe Slot1

 

[ColinB123]

Hi, thanks.
First, I'd say the issue of the "new processor" may not be relevant to my main issue of getting a decent speed from the graphics. Of course, a processor upgrade improves performance (about 50% above the i5-2400 previously) but it has had no impact on the W5000 working in slot 1 (above x1).

The only time I've seen the W5000 run at x16 (and v3), was in my main PC. It proved that it is OK in a UEFI system/ modern slot.
My issue is with the GA-Z77-D3H board/BIOS/WinXP anything else...

Also, I was quite impressed with the W5000's performance in 3d graphics even at x4 in the secondary slot. I'm using some simple tests (Passmark v8) for 2d and 3d testing (the card only supports DX9 and OpenGL in XP). The x4 results were 200 fps+ in the first 3d test. The GTX1050Ti at x1, produced 50fps.

 

[DesertSweeper]

I think you response came in before my edit...read my response again pls regarding SATA and that M.2

 

[ColinB123]

I was afraid you might say that !!!
My WinXP systems disk is the mSata. But yes, I could reload XP on a different drive and take out the mSata. Also cut out a DVD, or even the Win10 system. That would be a proper investigation of shared lanes. Then we would really know what I'm limited to.

 

[DesertSweeper]

Also while I know OEM's push the design limits - the official Intel Spec for your chipset claims no X16 or PCIe V3 support. and yes, your board claims it does, but it was all on the edge stuff and not exactly solid....the successor Z87 chipset was the first to officially support 1x16, 2x8, 1x8 and 2x4

I was afraid you might say that !!!
My WinXP systems disk is the mSata. But yes, I could reload XP on a different drive and take out the mSata. Also cut out a DVD, or even the Win10 system. That would be a proper investigation of shared lanes. Then we would really know what I'm limited to.

or boot LINUX or even WINpe off a USB stick (UBUNTU easypeasy) and then take a peek

And i wonder if one of the Northern Islands (HD 6900) GPU's would have done the trick....

 

[Caring1]

Also while I know OEM's push the design limits - the official Intel Spec for your chipset claims no X16 or PCIe V3 support. and yes, your board claims it does, but it was all on the edge stuff and not exactly solid....the successor Z87 chipset was the first to officially support 1x16, 2x8, 1x8 and 2x4

You should go back and check that info as I'm sure it is incorrect.
Z77 was the first native support.
The prior chipset Z67 supported it with V2 to some capacity.

 

[DesertSweeper]

Not according to Intel ARK database for Z77 - but then again that may be a mistake as most reviews mention it. How about that additional ATX_12V power connector - you have that plugged in right?
Also the Marvell SATA controller is mentioned but not shown in the schematic - that would need to connect to the CPU via lanes...so again if you disable all SATA and M.2 and boot from a USB and that works then start to enable one by one

 

[ColinB123]

Well I have a 4 pin extra plug that's plugged in. The Power Supply has an additional 4-pin, but I can't see it going anywhere (or even a connector to go to). The PSU is rubbish on this system. 450w, but I've managed to run a HD5870 (188w max) off it, and monitor the wall wattage (max 250w). So I think I might be safe there.

Also while I know OEM's push the design limits - the official Intel Spec for your chipset claims no X16 or PCIe V3 support. and yes, your board claims it does, but it was all on the edge stuff and not exactly solid....the successor Z87 chipset was the first to officially support 1x16, 2x8, 1x8 and 2x4


or boot LINUX or even WINpe off a USB stick (UBUNTU easypeasy) and then take a peek

And i wonder if one of the Northern Islands (HD 6900) GPU's would have done the trick....

Thanks.
I'm just re-installing XP on a spinning disk, and have to do some remedial work. If there's no joy, Linux is always the back-up! I'll keep you posted on progress: I may have to swap around cables-to-ports to minimise bus usage, and then see what that frees up.

OK. I've tried to reduce the maximum number of devices, and hopefully the lanes allocated to them. Disabled internal graphics, ethernet controller (I used a USB WLAN), unplugged the mSata drive, a disk drive and a DVD (now only 2 IDE/ATAPI devices), disabled the USB3 device, all in BIOS.

Re-installed WinXP on the remaining hard drive etc etc (a long process)

Connected an AMD V4800 (supposedly non UEFI), to the top graphics slot: 1x again.
Tried a W5000 (UEFI) in the same slot: same result.

Switched out the hard drive for an SSD with Win 10.
Put the V4800 in the top slot: 1x
Took it out and put the W5000 in the lower slot, setting x4 in the BIOS: it ran at x4.

I can attach some files tomorrow (it's 1:30am at the moment....)

 

[ColinB123]

OK, thanks to everyone for helping out.
I've reached the point where I don't think I can progress further: even in Linux the system doesn't recognise a (my) W5000 in the top slot AT ALL! Even with everything pulled out of the motherboard, and loading off a USB stick. The W5000 is fine in a modern motherboard. I've tried the method shown in the YouTube guide, without any success. I've tried lots of different combinations of motherboard settings.

I believe WinXP requires "IDE" to be set as the storage protocol, rather than AHCI: haven't tried AHCI at all. Maybe SP3 allows AHCI?

I've re-installed WinXP several times, installed different BIOSes etc etc.

So: I'm 'happy' with the old GT610 in the primary slot (at x16), and the W5000 in the secondary slot (at x4).
My last go: using a program (open source!) called 'snappy drivers' to install everything it finds! See you later!

 

[DesertSweeper]

Sorry I was off-shore. So I have that old AMD GPU lying on a shelf, and I am pretty sure I have a Z77 mobo (most likely an ASUS) lying on a shelf too...will set it up over the weekend and see what I get and report back!

 

[ColinB123]

That's very kind. I suspect my issues are a lot to do with the Gigabyte setup. And my bios settings (IDE etc). PS You must have a lot of shelves!

 

[ColinB123]

That's very kind. I suspect my issues are a lot to do with the Gigabyte setup. And my bios settings (IDE etc). PS You must have a lot of shelves!

Just as a side-note:

I delivered this system to-day, and it passed its tests. Final configuration?

An all MBR-based set of SSDs and an HDD. LinuxMint as a boot loader, Win XP Pro as the first (default) OS, Win7 as the next option, LM20.2 as last. As a result, all OSs can "see each other" (except Win xx can't see the Linux OS drive), and the data drives can be viewed by all. A small NV GT610 in the primary graphics slot (v1 x16), and the ATI W5000 in the secondary graphics slot (v2 x4). Rendering time has been reduced considerably, and is of a higher quality with anti-aliasing etc.

So there were a number of issues I never got to resolve:
1. Why the primary graphics slot was so averse to cards running at x16, especially at pcie v2 and v3. Bandwidth issues? I even switched from Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge, without any impact (except the memory controller started to allow my sticks to operate in dual channel mode, and latency plummeted)

2. How could I get MBR and GPT-based Windows to 'co-operate'? They don't seem to want to.

The painful bits: finding XP and 32-bit drivers and apps, and building an XP install disk from slip-streamed parts. Blowing up Corsair memory and the resultant problems of identifying the issue on a system that won't boot; trying to re-install an msata drive that turned out to be password locked (it won't). Well over a dozen OS installs.
But 'the customer' ended up very happy to have a responsive system.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys and gals.