Intel LGA1851 to Succeed LGA1700, Probably Retain Cooler Compatibility

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Well if you don't give me a substantial benefit then Ill assume there isn't any. That, or it's so important you wanna keep it to yourself

On the other hand there are multiple benefits to what Intel is doing so...

Make assumptions, go ahead that'll pan out.

What I do with more cores is my business alone but I will say, every pc I have owned in the last ten years spent it's time on and working at 100% 24/7 362(it does require maintenance)

I can think of only two benefits, one IO improvement (I updated mobo same CPU after 16 months for this anyway), two Intel's bottom line. . .

F#@k Intel's bottom line.

@Gica I have no clue what your on about, I have my systems listed, a 6500Xt isn't on it.

 

[fevgatos]

Make assumptions, go ahead that'll pan out.

What I do with more cores is my business alone but I will say, every pc I have owned in the last ten years spent it's time on and working at 100% 24/7 362(it does require maintenance)

I can think of only two benefits, one IO improvement (I updated mobo same CPU after 16 months for this anyway), two Intel's bottom line. . .

F#@k Intel's bottom line.

I didnt ask what you do with 16 cores, im asking what benefit did you get from that 5 year mobo support when you upgraded your motherboard anyways. Cause i dont see any.

 

[R0H1T]

I didnt ask what you do with 16 cores, im asking what benefit did you get from that 5 year mobo support when you upgraded your motherboard anyways. Cause i dont see any.

You do know the answer's right there, like staring at you from that QLED screen

If you had a beefy board that could support high(er) end chips from AMD you can literally get at least 2-5x MT performance across a variety of workloads, of course it would also depend on your base CPU at the time.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

I didnt ask what you do with 16 cores, im asking what benefit did you get from that 5 year mobo support when you upgraded your motherboard anyways. Cause i dont see any.

It's not done yet, I have no plans to swap to Intel or am5.

You don't see any and it's my job to convince you?!

Consumer electronics are not made to run 24/7 flat out.

Some of my choices are based on my uses.

As for 5 years support, you can't see the benefits, I doubt you ever could then.

 

[john_]

Really? Who on their mind would put a 5950x or a 3d in a b350 motherboard? Why the heck would you do that? We are talking about people that keep their cpus for a long time, right? So these people will be stuck with pcie 3 for the next like 5 years? Losing on faster drives / performance increases in new gpus and possibly direct storage.

Also, who on their right mind that keeps their cpu for 5 to 7 years buys an almost 2 year old cpu? Cause thats how old the 5950x.

X370 and b350 are completely outdated right now and besides the 3d every other cpu that is supported is 2 years old. So yeah, not a great option

Who? Everyone in a tight budget that already feel they are going beyond their budget for a 5900X/5950X/5800X3D or whatever they are upgrading to. You probably never had financial difficulties forcing you to do very specific upgrades. Everyone who would just want to upgrade their CPU without having to mess with also a motherboard upgrade. People who don't think like you are perfectly fine and their mind is also working perfectly fine. Not having difficulties sleeping at night because you have a PCIe 4.0 motherboard instead of a PCIe 5.0 motherboard, is understandable. Being them, felt that, ....when I was 20-25 years old. Got a bit late in the PC platform, at about 1998. I was losing my sleep for buying the 333A Celeron instead of the 300A that could hit 450MHz with a simple bus change.

Stuck with PCIe 3.0 means 3GB/sec speed. Not exactly the end of the world. On graphics cards PCIe 3.0 X16 is perfectly fine. You are right if we are talking about 6500XT. Are we?

Upgrading to a new CPU, when on a tight budget, doesn't mean going to buy the brand new model that came out yesterday. It means going from a 2600X for example to a 5800X now that 5800X's price is much lower compared to when that CPU came out. Or even an older 3900X if multithreading performance at the lowest possible price is needed. A 5950X is also at a much better price point, but probably who even needs a 5950X will go for a newer board.
But then again someone who can't just upgrade the whole platform does have the option to upgrade only the CPU. For example someone without technical knowledge that uses that 2600X mentioned before, needing to upgrade to something much much better calls a technician at home to get some offers. And hears
"Replacing the CPU will cost the cost of the CPU plus an extra 30 euros for the work. Replacing also the motherboard, will increase that cost with the extra cost of the motherboard, while the cost of the work will also go up to 100 euros instead of just 30, because replacing a motherboard and doing some basic testing to see that Windows booted correctly and downloaded all the necessary drivers does mean extra work and the possibility of something going wrong which translates to even more work and more costs for covering the necessary work".

So, there are plenty of examples of people in their right minds avoiding a motherboard replacement just for upgrading the CPU and not missing out on SSDs that offer pointless speeds at much higher prices for the same storage capacity.
Of course there is 6500XT out there that could be an argument in your favor.

 

[MarsM4N]

Plus the work/time difference of swapping a CPU vs. swapping a CPU+Board.

A CPU is swapped in 30 minutes, but swapping a board is a day job (if you include the new Windows install to avoid driver issues).

 

[fevgatos]

Who? Everyone in a tight budget that already feel they are going beyond their budget for a 5900X/5950X/5800X3D or whatever they are upgrading to. You probably never had financial difficulties forcing you to do very specific upgrades. Everyone who would just want to upgrade their CPU without having to mess with also a motherboard upgrade. People who don't think like you are perfectly fine and their mind is also working perfectly fine. Not having difficulties sleeping at night because you have a PCIe 4.0 motherboard instead of a PCIe 5.0 motherboard, is understandable. Being them, felt that, ....when I was 20-25 years old. Got a bit late in the PC platform, at about 1998. I was losing my sleep for buying the 333A Celeron instead of the 300A that could hit 450MHz with a simple but change.

Stuck with PCIe 3.0 means 3GB/sec speed. Not exactly the end of the world. On graphics cards PCIe 3.0 X16 is perfectly fine. You are right if we are talking about 6500XT. Are we?

Upgrading to a new CPU, when on a tight budget, doesn't mean going to buy the brand new model that came out yesterday. It means going from a 2600X for example to a 5800X now that 5800X's price is much lower compared to when that CPU came out. Or even an older 3900X if multithreading performance at the lowest possible price is needed. A 5950X is also at a much better price point, but probably who even needs a 5950X will go for a newer board.
But then again someone who can't just upgrade the whole platform does have the option to upgrade only the CPU. For example someone without technical knowledge that uses that 2600X mentioned before, needing to upgrade to something much much better calls a technician at home to get some offers. And hears
"Replacing the CPU will cost the cost of the CPU plus an extra 30 euros for the work. Replacing also the motherboard, will increase that cost with the extra cost of the motherboard, while the cost of the work will also go up to 100 euros instead of just 30, because replacing a motherboard and doing some basic testing to see that Windows booted correctly and downloaded all the necessary drivers does mean extra work and the possibility of something going wrong which translates to even more work and more costs for covering the necessary work".

So, there are plenty of examples of people in their right minds avoiding a motherboard replacement just for upgrading the CPU and not missing out on SSDs that offer pointless speeds at much higher prices for the same storage capacity.
Of course there is 6500XT out there than could be an argument in your favor.

Its not just an 6500xt. You mentioned the 5800x3d. I assume you buy that to combine it with a 4080 or something. I assume that you are going to lose some performance with that card from the pcie 3 compared to pcie 4. Maybe even a 5080 down the line, since you were talking about people keeping their cpus for a long time.

Plus the work/time difference of swapping a CPU vs. swapping a CPU+Board.

A CPU is swapped in 30 minutes, but swapping a board is a day job (if you include the new Windows install to avoid driver issues).

That part, i agree. But then again it has its downsides. I still remember all the chaos created in the amd camp about what mobo supports what cpu with which bios, does it have support out of the box, do you need an old cpu to upgrade the bios, do you buy the normal version or do you need the MAX with a bigger rom etcetera.

 

[AusWolf]

I hate them both! Always have, always will. They never make a perfect lifelong platform and I will never forgive them for it. Rotten money grubbing good for nothings is all they are. Killing our environment with their stupid wattage and their you know... things!
Now get off my lawn you dirty kids before I tell your ma!

That's just capitalism in action. There always has to be a new shiny everything every year to maximise sales, even if it's bad for the environment. Why else would car manufacturers suggest you buy a new car when your old one is due for a water pump or cam belt replacement?

 

[john_]

Its not just an 6500xt. You mentioned the 5800x3d. I assume you buy that to combine it with a 4080 or something. I assume that you are going to lose some performance with that card from the pcie 3 compared to pcie 4. Maybe even a 5080 down the line, since you were talking about people keeping their cpus for a long time.

You combine it with whatever you like. Even an RTX 3060 or an older RTX 2060. Why not? Because you don't use 5800X3D's full capacity at it's maximum? So? That 5800X3D will offer whatever it will offer with the RTX 3060/2060 and latter who knows, maybe with an RTX 3080 and then with an RTX 4070. Not everyone buys the latest and greatest, or needs to have a system working at 100% potential. And how we translate the need of taking advantage of a system's full potential? If I buy an 12900K, do I also have to spend $4000 for the best mobo, the best PSU, the best water cooling, the best RAM, the best GPU, the fastest NVMe SSDs out there, just so I can use 12900K's 100% potential instead of 90%? In that case 12900K is an extremely expensive and extremely stressful option. The same goes for 5950X, or 5800X3D and whatever else option. I do understand that buying a hi end part can lead to more upgrades just to not feel like that hi end part is underutilized, but it doesn't need to be like that, buying a hi end part and ending spending 5 times the money just to not feel you are not using that part's full potential.

 

[fevgatos]

You combine it with whatever you like. Even an RTX 3060 or an older RTX 2060. Why not? Because you don't use 5800X3D's full capacity at it's maximum? So? That 5800X3D will offer whatever it will offer with the RTX 3060/2060 and latter who knows, maybe with an RTX 3080 and then with an RTX 4070. Not everyone buys the lattest and greatest, or needs to have a system working at 100% potential. And what is 100% potential? If I buy an 12900K, do I also have to spend $4000 for the best mobo, the best PSU, the best watercooling, the best RAM, the best GPU, the fastest NVMe SSDs out there, just so I can use 12900K's 100% potencial instead of 90%? In that case 12900K is an extremely expensive and extremely stressful option.

Because if you are cash strived (as you mentioned), with a 5year old motherboard and a mid range GPU you don't spend 450€ on a 5800x 3d that you aren't even going to use. Instead, you can spend 450 and get a 12700f + a shiny new b660. New mobo, with modern features and better upgradability. The 3d only makes sense if you make use of it (low resolution / high end gpu etc.), else you are just throwing money away.

 

[john_]

Because if you are cash strived (as you mentioned), with a 5year old motherboard and a mid range GPU you don't spend 450€ on a 5800x 3d that you aren't even going to use. Instead, you can spend 450 and get a 12700f + a shiny new b660. New mobo, with modern features and better upgradability. The 3d only makes sense if you make use of it (low resolution / high end gpu etc.), else you are just throwing money away.

Did some editing above. Finished with it, just informing.

How do you know that I am not going to take advantage of that 5800X3D? And why is 12700F better for my needs? Why do I need to change platform that could lead to installing again Windows just to have a clean install without AMD drivers larking somewhere in there? And why do you feel I need a new mobo with new features? Do I have USB storage devices that will take advantage of the fastest USB? Do I have storage options that can take advantage of PCIe 5.0? Am I going to buy PCIe 5.0 storage options in the future when they cost 50-100% more than PCIe 3.0 with the same storage capacity? And why is the X3D now the center of our conversation? Let's talk about my need to change the whole platform and go with an Intel CPU that comes with 8 Performance cores and 4 Marketing cores, with a base frequency of 2.1GHz(what year is it?) and official Turbo Power at 180W.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Because if you are cash strived (as you mentioned), with a 5year old motherboard and a mid range GPU you don't spend 450€ on a 5800x 3d that you aren't even going to use. Instead, you can spend 450 and get a 12700f + a shiny new b660. New mobo, with modern features and better upgradability. The 3d only makes sense if you make use of it (low resolution / high end gpu etc.), else you are just throwing money away.

So unless we do as you would were wasting money, right.

And better upgradability, for what a year, perhaps pciex 5 drives will be affordable by then to fit in a entry level b660 nice.

Or perhaps GPU will use pciex5 this year.

Fffff no they won't.

Your clinging to 5 year old motherboard replays when NO ONE ELSE even mentioned it.

5 years support doesn't tie you to five years with the same mobo , mine do about two hard year's.

Yours do gaming now n again (two can play at assuming)

What is it about your use case that aligns with mine.

Nothing by the sounds of it, if I were a casual gamer I might agree on five year whole swaps, but 38 years of f£#@ in with computers guided me to the best way, for me.

And thankfully AMD supported that outlook.

There was nothing stopping Intel going 1851 pins now using 1700 of them now but giving upgrade options later but they like people like you, they like money.

 

[fevgatos]

Did some editing above. Finished with it, just informing.

How do you know that I am not going to take advantage of that 5800X3D? And why is 12700F better for my needs? Why do I need to change platform that could lead to installing again Windows just to have a clean install without AMD drivers larking somewhere in there? And why do you feel I need a new mobo with new features? Do I have USB storage devices that will take advantage of the fastest USB? Do I have storage options that can take advantage of PCIe 5.0? Am I going to buy PCIe 5.0 storage options in the future when they cost 50-100% more thatn PCIe 3.0 with the same storage capacity? An why is the X3D now the center of our conversation? Let's talk about my need to change the whole platform and go with an Intel CPU that comes with 8 Performance cores and 4 Marketing cores, with a base frequency of 2.1GHz and official Turbo Power at 180W.

You mentioned the 3d and the 5950x. I think we both agree that whoever buys any of these CPUs is probably better of with a new motherboard. That's all im saying.


The 12700f crucifies the 3d in 99.99% of workloads, bar 240p gaming. Imagine if it does that with base 2.1 ghz clockspeeds and 4 marketing cores, the IPC on that thing must be insane

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

You mentioned the 3d and the 5950x. I think we both agree that whoever buys any of these CPUs is probably better of with a new motherboard. That's all im saying.


The 12700f crucifies the 3d in 99.99% of workloads, bar 240p gaming. Imagine if it does that with base 2.1 ghz clockspeeds and 4 marketing cores, the IPC on that thing must be insane

Back that bullshit, show 99.9% running faster, I know you can't.

 

[MarsM4N]

... you don't spend 450€ on a 5800x 3d ...

In a year you can pick up a 5800x3D "used" on eBay for half the price, so for some it will be a viable last upgrade option.

 

[john_]

You mentioned the 3d and the 5950x. I think we both agree that whoever buys any of these CPUs is probably better of with a new motherboard. That's all im saying.


The 12700f crucifies the 3d in 99.99% of workloads, bar 240p gaming. Imagine if it does that with base 2.1 ghz clockspeeds and 4 marketing cores, the IPC on that thing must be insane

First you completely lose the whole point. Intentionally or because you don't understand what is the point? I don't know. The thing is to have options. Let's say I have a B350 and an 1600X. I see I sale of a 5950X that I am dreaming for years. It happens I have the money. I grab it, I replace my old 1600X and I use my 5950X from day one. I don't have the money to upgrade my motherboard at the same time? No problemo. I can do it latter. In a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade. I HAVE THE OPTION. Do you understand it? If not say "No" and let's end it here.

That second line screams "Intel fan". 12700F crucifies X3d in 99.99% of workloads? You expect me to take you seriously when reading something like that? What are you? 15? 240p gaming? Really? While I have to mention that Intel fans where DEMANDING 720p bench marking when testing CPUs, before AMD came out with 5000 series and they changed their minds over night. 240p? Really? And because you haven't ruined your whatever reputation enough with those, you come and say that 12700F does all that at 2.1 base frequency. Do you even know what a base frequency is?

Sorry I have better things to do than answering to someone who does NOT want to listen and throws pointless stuff like 240p.

 

[fevgatos]

Back that bullshit, show 99.9% running faster, I know you can't.

It's faster in everything but games. It's just a fact. The 3d is a slower 5800x, the 12700 trounces the 5800x, so by association it also trounces the 3d. If you are that far off, to the point where you can't acknowledge that the 12700 is faster in the vast majority of applications, there is no point even talking to you. Have a good day.

That second line screams "Intel fan". 12700F crucifies X3d in 99.99% of workloads? You expect me to take you seriously when reading something like that? What are you? 15? 240p gaming? Really? While I have to mention that Intel fans where DEMANDING 720p bench marking when testing CPUs, before AMD came out with 5000 series and they changed their minds over night. 240p? Really?

Im not an intel fan and there is nothing wrong with 240p benches. The point is, you need a beefy GPU to take advantage of the 3d. If you don't have said GPU, get a 5700x for way less money. That's the one and only reason I mentioned the 240p gaming.

And because you haven't ruined your whatever reputation enough with those, you come and say that 12700F does all that at 2.1 base frequency. Do you even know what a base frequency is?

Yes, its a meaningless frequency that the 12700 on a b660 will never reach, so it doesn't matter, but you mentioned it anyways. So i just threw it back at you. Are you saying that the 12700 ever reaches 2.1 ghz? Then why the heck would you mention it? To save face on an argument you were badly losing? Fact is, the 12700f demolishes the 3d in most applications, and that plus a shiny brand new upgradable mobo costs as much as the 3d on it's own. So unless you have an 1k+ GPU, the 3d is a waste of money.

In a year you can pick up a 5800x3D "used" on eBay for half the price, so for some it will be a viable last upgrade option.

Im not sure it's going to be the case, I think zen 5 won't surpass the 3d in gaming performance, and that plus the cost of DDR5 is going to keep the 3d in high demand even in the used market.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

It's faster in everything but games. It's just a fact. The 3d is a slower 5800x, the 12700 trounces the 5800x, so by association it also trounces the 3d. If you are that far off, to the point where you can't acknowledge that the 12700 is faster in the vast majority of applications, there is no point even talking to you. Have a good day.


Im not an intel fan and there is nothing wrong with 240p benches. The point is, you need a beefy GPU to take advantage of the 3d. If you don't have said GPU, get a 5700x for way less money. That's the one and only reason I mentioned the 240p gaming.

No point talking to someone who calls out your hyperbole 99.9% more like.

Now it's a majority, some applications favour cache and show that in benches like games.

You proved zip except, you like hype, and your own perspective.

Laters gaters.

 

[john_]

It's faster in everything but games. It's just a fact. The 3d is a slower 5800x, the 12700 trounces the 5800x, so by association it also trounces the 3d. If you are that far off, to the point where you can't acknowledge that the 12700 is faster in the vast majority of applications, there is no point even talking to you. Have a good day.


Im not an intel fan and there is nothing wrong with 240p benches. The point is, you need a beefy GPU to take advantage of the 3d. If you don't have said GPU, get a 5700x for way less money. That's the one and only reason I mentioned the 240p gaming.


Yes, its a meaningless frequency that the 12700 on a b660 will never reach, so it doesn't matter, but you mentioned it anyways. So i just threw it back at you. Are you saying that the 12700 ever reaches 2.1 ghz? Then why the heck would you mention it? To save face on an argument you were badly losing? Fact is, the 12700f demolishes the 3d in most applications, and that plus a shiny brand new upgradable mobo costs as much as the 3d on it's own. So unless you have an 1k+ GPU, the 3d is a waste of money.

Oh come on now. Is games 0.01% now? You said 99.99%!

You are not an Intel fan. If you say so. 5700X is a nice upgrade option. Nice of you agreeing in that. Do you understand now why having options is a good thing? Someone with a X370 board could jump from a first/second gen Ryzen to 5700X and be happy with it. Upgrading the CPU will be simple, cheap, fast, to the point.

It's not meaningless. It's the frequency Intel had to lower it's CPU so it can market is as 65W.

And let's clear something here. Are you taking part in a dialog, or are you taking part in a contest? Because saying "To save face on an argument you were badly losing?" looks like you think this is a contest.

 

[fevgatos]

Oh come on now. Is games 0.01% now? You said 99.99%!

You are not an Intel fan. If you say so. 5700X is a nice upgrade option. Nice of you agreeing in that. Do you understand now why having options is a good thing? Someone with a X370 board could jump from a first/second gen Ryzen to 5700X and be happy with it. Upgrading the CPU will be simple, cheap, fast, to the point.

It's not meaningless. It's the frequency Intel had to lower it's CPU so it can market is as 65W.

And let me clear something here. Are you taking part in a dialog, or are you taking part in a contest? Because saying "To save face on an argument you were badly losing?" looks like you think this is a contest.

You made it a contest when you mentioned the 2.1 ghz base clock. Seriously, who cares about it? The CPU works with power limits removed in a 150€ b660.

Games can be 50%, it doesn't matter, if you don't have the GPU to take advantage of that 10% more performance the 3d offers over the 12700, then it's a waste of money, since youll be stuck with an old outdated motherboard while paying what a 12700f + b660 cost. And youll be slower in almost every other application besides games.


Anyways, let's say meteorlake releases in 2024. Let's say, Intel announces in 2026 that the z690 can now upgrade to meteorlake (ala zen 3 with the x370). Do you call that good mobo support? Who would care by that point? Cause that's what AMD did. Mind you, I had a b350. Couple of friends had a b350. We all moved to alderlake last year, cause, you know, who would have known that AMD would flip flop AGAIN and support zen 3 on those mobos. At least with Intel, you know what you get, and you get it day ONE. You don't have to wait and pray for 2 years (or go on a witch hunt on reddit and other social medias) to get support for the now 2 year old cpus.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

You made it a contest when you mentioned the 2.1 ghz base clock. Seriously, who cares about it? The CPU works with power limits removed in a 150€ b660.

Games can be 50%, it doesn't matter, if you don't have the GPU to take advantage of that 10% more performance the 3d offers over the 12700, then it's a waste of money, since youll be stuck with an old outdated motherboard while paying what a 12700f + b660 cost. And youll be slower in almost every other application besides games.


Anyways, let's say meteorlake releases in 2024. Let's say, Intel announces in 2026 that the z690 can now upgrade to meteorlake (ala zen 3 with the x370). Do you call that good mobo support? Who would care by that point? Cause that's what AMD did. Mind you, I had a b350. Couple of friends had a b350. We all moved to alderlake last year, cause, you know, who would have known that AMD would flip flop AGAIN and support zen 3 on those mobos. At least with Intel, you know what you get, and you get it day ONE. You don't have to wait and pray for 2 years (or go on a witch hunt on reddit and other social medias) to get support for the now 2 year old cpus.

Really sounding unbiased there.

Not at all ranty, go you, your not done yet eh now your pulling 2024/6 into it.

And now you and your mates all got b350 realised it's faults and now are all Intel!?.

Read that back in ten years , when you get to 25.

 

[fevgatos]

Really sounding unbiased there.

Not at all ranty, go you, your not done yet eh now your pulling 2024/6 into it.

And now you and your mates all got b350 realised it's faults and now are all Intel!?.

Read that back in ten years , when you get to 25.

I said goodbye, you said goodbye, yet here you are quoting me. Read it back in ten years when you get to 15 I guess?

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

I said goodbye, you said goodbye, yet here you are quoting me. Read it back in ten years when you get to 15 I guess?

Not bad, thanks, but this is a public forum, I will reply as such regardless of you trying to wave me off.

You coxed me back with this dreamy blue horizon your seeing.

 

[fevgatos]

Not bad, thanks, but this is a public forum, I will reply as such regardless of you trying to wave me off.

You coxed me back with this dreamy blue horizon your seeing.

I apologize, I usually wave off people that dont accept FACTS, like the sky is blue, the sun rises from the east and the 12700 smashes the 3d into oblivion in anything but games (240p / 3090 and the likes). They are so far gone there is no point trying to reason with them

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

I apologize, I usually wave off people that dont accept FACTS, like the sky is blue, the sun rises from the east and the 12700 smashes the 3d into oblivion in anything but games (240p / 3090 and the likes). They are so far gone there is no point trying to reason with them

You haven't displayed any facts though, crack on I'm still waiting on 99.9% worth of evidence, use Tpu reviews.

So far gone, look at what your saying compared to me, not once have I levied anything as being better, it's not a epean competition to me.

Crack on smashing those facts out I'll wait.