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Is the futureproof gaming solution a four drive system?

IMO, the best of the best without using ram cache is an Optane P5801X : 5µs latency, PCIe 4.0 sequential speeds, infinitely better endurance and random reads/writes performance than any NVMe.
For the OS, even an Optane 800p or P1600X would be much snappier.
 
I don't think there's such a thing as "futureproof" especially when it comes to storage. Just buy more SSDs when you need them.

Me for instance i don't partition storage, each ssd is it's own single partition.
I use 4 M.2 NVME ssds -> 500GB for OS and browser +the usual suspects and the other 3 for games.
3 SATA SSDs for my mp3 music(yes i still use those, sue me)and old movies family pics and stuff like that.

All of it backed up 3x on 4TB external HDDs and 2X on 4Tb external SSDs. Yes. I know i have mental issues.

Screenshot 2025-03-31 full ssd.png
 
On the other side, Radeon cards can use RAM cache, and I can tell you that the new Radeon 9070 XTs benefit more from RAM cache than the old Radeon cards ;)

But I couldn't get RAM Cache to work with my previous RTX 4080 Super, I think Nvidia just doesn't take advantage of RAM Cache because it uses its own cache in C: drive by default. If you stop it in the driver, it doesn't take the benefit again, so I think you can't test it yourself (4090 in your specs). This is one of the reasons I sold my 4080, it just loads games/saves slower than Radeon :p

View attachment 392527View attachment 392528

That's pretty interesting, you can use an AMD card's VRAM as a RAM Cache? Does this require any special steps or can it be done right within Primo?

This is not an official AMD feature so I assume that data still has to go through the CPU but I have to wonder what the performance would be like if it was an official feature and most of it were to be offloaded to the GPU. In scenarios where you have the extra VRAM and bandwidth I could see free performance from that.
 
That's pretty interesting, you can use an AMD card's VRAM as a RAM Cache? Does this require any special steps or can it be done right within Primo?
No, it's just that when the card reads the game data, if it's in the RAM cache, it reads it from there, but not from the storage and everything loads faster.

Nvidia somehow do it differently. Probably because its software manages its own data cache and bypasses all other data. You can see there is an option in the storage for that and you can manage it up to 100 GB.
 
I can’t believe that the idea of RAM caching seems to have been forgotten about. PCTools included it in tne 80’s.
Because the RAMDrive it creates/uses has lower latency and faster read, write and copy than any storage.
You guys do know that RAM caching tools have lost popularity because all* modern OS have integrated the functionality?

*I think. Windows and Linux for sure, I'm not a MacOS user.

Windows: You can look up usage in the task manager or the resource monitor (sorry for the German, but you can clearly see 9.9 GB cache usage)
1743528224799.png

Linux: amongst other commands, you can use free -h to get a human readable overview of memory usage including what's used for caching:
1743528962067.png




I use 4 M.2 NVME ssds -> 500GB for OS and browser +the usual suspects and the other 3 for games.
Oh wow so many small SSDs is way too bothersome for me. I don't even want to think about the eternal 'where did I put this' when managing seven different SSDs in one system.

I tend to go with the 'buy big or don't bother buying' approach...
1743529381889.png

That's one 3.84TB SSD, one 7.68TB and one 11TB. As you might expect from that, many of my SSDs are used enterprise drives.
Which aren't precisely cheap, but they tend to be price/TB competitive with 1TB/2TB consumer drives where with consumer drives you pay through the nose for 4TB and especially 8TB options.

It has its own drawbacks (high idle power consumption and a need for m.2 to u.2 adapters, for one), but at least I'm not continually adding one more drive. And I can freely fill them up without performance degradation because they have sufficient buffer in the user inaccessible NAND.

The most recent addition is a Micron 9200 ECO 11TB that I got once my AI stuff collection started running out of space on the second partition on disk 0 and I wasn't willing to delete enough stuff to really free up space.


Also, I may be mildly addicted to buying unusual SSDs and taking them apart to see what's inside. Please help.
 
You guys do know that RAM caching tools have lost popularity because all* modern OS have integrated the functionality?

I'd say it's because SSDs got cheap and they are fast enough. Also RAM caching has always been a thing (hyperbole). 20 years ago people were asking "Windows is such a memory hog, just the cache is using 200MB!! What is cache btw?"
 
You guys do know that RAM caching tools have lost popularity because all* modern OS have integrated the functionality?
This is different, the OS caches less data and some of it is in the page file (swap), yes we can move swap to RAM, we can move some of the other temporary folders to RAM Drive too, and yes that helps a bit.
 
You guys do know that RAM caching tools have lost popularity because all* modern OS have integrated the functionality?
Windows file caching is completely brain dead.

Primocache is a block cache, so it works below the file system, and has a ton a ton of configurable performance options.

It has a free trial, try it out, and you’ll see what a system that doesn’t touch disk is like.
 
I am just a regular Joe.. WD Black M.2 is good enough for me.
 
You can always tell someone has a balanced and thought out take when their comment begins with what is essentially "you are wrong and I am right and there is no nuance or anything that I'm leaving out". (FYI obvious sarcasm).

Most people don't use RAM as their game cache and for very good reasons:

1) It's infeasible for anyone with large game libraries. It requires a shed load of expensive memory when you are talking about caching 8TB+ of games. People report 3-10% of a game's total size is cached. That's 400 GB of RAM at a conservative 5% per game. That is beyond the max RAM capacity of most consumer systems, let alone the abysmal timings and latency that would have. Heck even if it was possible you'd be dropping a cool 1.3K on that much memory, which defeats the purpose for the OP in the first place. If OP has that kind of money they could simply buy an 800GB optane which is actually a cache drive with 5x the sequential speeds and gets pretty darn close latency wise that isn't volitile and doesn't come with the drawbacks of a RAM Cache. Better yet, just get regular SSDs. The benefit of Optane is very minmal for games (I would know, I've compared my 800GB P5800X to my PCIe 5.0 T700 4TB).

2) Power loss or crashes result in data loss as the RAM Cache is volatile and only saved at certain times. Any memory errors will also cause corruption.

3) A RAM cache competes for memory bandwidth. Any performance demonstrated in benchmarks will be lower in gaming scenarios, as your RAM cache now has to compete with the game for bandwidth.

4) There is no practical benefit. People are not going to notice the difference between a game on RAM cache and a game on a decent SSD. Heck, there's hardly any benefit to anything faster than PCIe 3.0 in general.

In addition to the above, a RAM cache has great latency figures but poor sequential figures:

View attachment 392490

In fact that sequential performance is piss poor and that will impact gaming performance. People who have tested a RAM Cache on a game reported no benefit so perhaps the two balance each other out.

The performance characteristics make sense though, DDR is optimized for random performance and latency. It's GDDR that's optimized for throughput.

RAM Caches aren't really suited nor beneficial to games in the vast majority of cases as the points above clearly illustrate. What works for you doesn't immediately work for others.



PrimoCache isn't primarily about RAM caching. That's certainly something you can do but not what most people use it for. The reason you don't see people with RAM Caches is because:

1) There is little to no benefit over SSDs.
2) RAM is expensive and it may not even be feasible depending on the size of your game library.
3) Larger amounts of RAM trade-off frequency and latency. Getting a hard to quantify benefit for very real disadvantage is not very appealing.
4) RAM Cache competes for memory bandwidth.

PrimoCache is far more commonly used to create an SSD cache for hard drives because that benefit is noticeable, easy to setup, and cheap. A 1TB SSD can be had for $70 - $80 and with that capacity you can cache a massive amount of data.
If the benchmark is showing poor sequential performance for DRAM, then it's a poorly coded benchmark. The extremely low latency of DRAM compared to NAND or even Optane means that random 4K read or write should be almost as fast as sequential read or write, i.e. nearly 100 GB/s for a fast DDR5 system.

1743541496537.png
 
Windows file caching is completely brain dead.

Primocache is a block cache, so it works below the file system, and has a ton a ton of configurable performance options.
Learn something new every day

It has a free trial, try it out, and you’ll see what a system that doesn’t touch disk is like.
Hmm... maybe. I certainly have RAM to spare when I'm not experimenting with large LLMs or something.

Though I'm somewhat concerned about write caching to DRAM. Can you set it to read caching only?
 
This is what it's like to have your storage throughput be CPU limited.



1743543533942.png


Learn something new every day


Hmm... maybe. I certainly have RAM to spare when I'm not experimenting with large LLMs or something.

Though I'm somewhat concerned about write caching to DRAM. Can you set it to read caching only?

Yes, write caching is optional, and you should definitely have backup power if you’re going to enable it. So on a laptop or a desktop that’s on an ups.
 
I feel like i just want to have some generic nvme for OS and other stuff and some big nvme for games and general storage at this point.
 
OS - Fastest NVMe

Gaming:
xxTB HDD for everything that can run on it in current OS build without texture issues or .............................................................loading.
SATA SSD for games that exhibit better lows and general behaviors on it as opposed to NVMe.
NVMe for unoptimized, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA hyphey games you own that are just there to fill the need and those that actually utilize it to create fuller immersion and reaction times. Build/patch specific qualification.


Believe I see a reassertion of this (relatively) old question becoming more prominent for enthusiast gaming. With RAM and system balance being primary. At this point firmware access to firmware unlocked or physically present capabilities being secondary or tertiary. For my own purposes the reality on modern hardware has been unexpected per game age and system stress a game produces.

Momentum of lowest common denominator business practices aside, chasing where the % that fully unlocks enjoyment exists is leading me to question where everyone else on this increasingly aging body of membership site is at? By all means the under-30's shoved into lurking will have their response defended.
I've been running a variant of this tiered storage arrangement for awhile.

At this precise moment, my config:

Boot and Page File* - Fastest: Optane P5801X 400GB - SoC Gen4x4 M.2-U.2-E1.S adapters
Apps+New Games - Faster: Samsung 990Pro 2TB - x570 Gen4x4 M.2 slot
Storage+Old Games - Fast: KLEVV CRAS C910 4TB - x570 Gen4x4 M.2-x4 adapter
I moved to SATA-less/all-NVME when I changed cases and gave up my internal DVD-RW drive.
*Even w/ 64+GiB of RAM, Page File seems to get some use.



Keeping things spread across separate drives makes it easier to migrate/upgrade storage, IMO.

Also, it makes local-to-local installations and file transfers go considerably faster.
Installing a GoG title, etc. or moving an install directory takes mere moments, not many minutes.
 
I've been running a variant of this tiered storage arrangement for awhile.

At this precise moment, my config:

Boot and Page File* - Fastest: Optane P5801X 400GB - SoC Gen4x4 M.2-U.2-E1.S adapters
Apps+New Games - Faster: Samsung 990Pro 2TB - x570 Gen4x4 M.2 slot
Storage+Old Games - Fast: KLEVV CRAS C910 4TB - x570 Gen4x4 M.2-x4 adapter
I moved to SATA-less/all-NVME when I changed cases and gave up my internal DVD-RW drive.
*Even w/ 64+GiB of RAM, Page File seems to get some use.



Keeping things spread across separate drives makes it easier to migrate/upgrade storage, IMO.

Also, it makes local-to-local installations and file transfers go considerably faster.
Installing a GoG title, etc. or moving an install directory takes mere moments, not many minutes.

First off, believe I read your 4TB C910 died recently. Mine did as well. When RMA drive arrived it seemed to play better with 24H2.

To borrow a phrase, reading the room I've noticed the average TPU member is more likely to max out the number of molex powered devices than board and slot mounted NVMe. My own personal use is if anything shifting back towards heavier use of SATA. Effectively making use of the larger storage capacities of each format without mating consumer OS and bodged together firmware that would allow enterprise level drives to function in their new purpose. My feeling is the term futureproof was not misused.
 
This is what it's like to have your storage throughput be CPU limited.



View attachment 392858



Yes, write caching is optional, and you should definitely have backup power if you’re going to enable it. So on a laptop or a desktop that’s on an ups.
Oof my 3200MT/s DDR4 ECC ram drive is so slowww. Are you using DDR5?

1743556463189.png
 
First off, believe I read your 4TB C910 died recently. Mine did as well. When RMA drive arrived it seemed to play better with 24H2.
99.9% my fault on my C910 dying. When I pulled it, the M.2 thermalspreader was making approx. 5mm of contact, furthest from the controller :eek:
0.01% on KLEVV/SKHynix / Realtek for trying to make customers believe these need 'minimal' cooling.
 
99.9% my fault on my C910 dying. When I pulled it, the M.2 thermalspreader was making approx. 5mm of contact, furthest from the controller :eek:
0.01% on KLEVV/SKHynix / Realtek for trying to make customers believe these need 'minimal' cooling.

OT: Been meaning to find a good point to ask you about this. Mine was almost too thick with stock thermal pad. Very even oil distribution. Fault was either drive/controller/firmware incompatibility or OS.

First drive consistently ran 10°C hotter than 980 Pro. Second consistently runs 17°C higher in same location at idle. Without an earlier data point I'm left at observing it runs cooler during intermittent loading of game files than at idle even with almost zero difference in airflow.
 
OT: Been meaning to find a good point to ask you about this. Mine was almost too thick with stock thermal pad. Very even oil distribution. Fault was either drive/controller/firmware incompatibility or OS.

First drive consistently ran 10°C hotter than 980 Pro. Second consistently runs 17°C higher in same location at idle. Without an earlier data point I'm left at observing it runs cooler during intermittent loading of game files than at idle even with almost zero difference in airflow.
out-my-arse guess:
Whether ASPM was disabled in UEFI, or not -that C910's controller was not properly entering idle states.
Or, it had lame (like a horse :laugh:) power components.

note: the one of mine that did die, I had applied the included thermalspreader to. -and, it always ran hotter than the other (surviving) drive.
BTW, I bought 4, 2 went to housemate. Both of his under his B650 Aurous' mobo thermalspreader are still fine.

I would say this is topical. -users w/ multiple drives, are statistically more-likely to encounter defects or thermal issues.
NtM, while avail. the C910 4TB was the best value NVMe on the market.

I believe it's OoS now, but <$200 for 4TB of TLC on Gen4x4, was *very* attractive. Esp. from SK Hynix's brand(s).
 
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DDR5 4800. I would expect your performance to be higher than what you’re getting. Which ramdisk are you using?
1743573280307.png

I got it back in 2022 including $20 for the license unlock for large disks. I think this software is possibly discontinued now.

(edit)

I did some poking around Passmark and Primo have solutions. Looks like Primo is the winner and I've found my ramdisk replacement.
The performance difference seems mostly between solutions that use the SCSI vs. Direct-IO methods.
These tests were performed with my 5950x 128GB ECC RAM CL22.

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It all depends on the point of view.

If the user is not interested in a few seconds more loading - yes, the benefit is small.
When I'm playing, I want the game I'm playing to load faster, and when I'm loading saves several times for death, I'd rather not wait 3-4 seconds for loading, but 1-2 seconds.

Some of the things you said are true, I agree it's not for everyone but for those looking for speed.
Yes, this way has disadvantages, but if you are afraid of bears, just don't go into the forest.

On the other side, Radeon cards can use RAM cache, and I can tell you that the new Radeon 9070 XTs benefit more from RAM cache than the old Radeon cards ;)

But I couldn't get RAM Cache to work with my previous RTX 4080 Super, I think Nvidia just doesn't take advantage of RAM Cache because it uses its own cache in C: drive by default. If you stop it in the driver, it doesn't take the benefit again, so I think you can't test it yourself (4090 in your specs). This is one of the reasons I sold my 4080, it just loads games/saves slower than Radeon :p

View attachment 392527View attachment 392528
Seems like an awful overkill of effort to gain 2 seconds in game. I think the balance doesn't end up positively given the attention you're giving the functionality and the gain you have in loading those levels. Gonna have to do some serious gaming then and end up with perhaps one match extra /played at the end of a year. If those two extra seconds bother you, you might need to work on your patience more so than your pc ;)

It comes down to the same simple principle as the supposed advantage of having a super duper pro NVME drive: its utterly pointless for gaming. 'Looking for speed'... you're just looking for heavy diminishing returns.

Now of course, if you're just doing it because you like doing it and see the advantages, by all means. But selling it as the better solution disregarding the effort and disadvantages is not doing anyone favors.
 
Seems like an awful overkill of effort to gain 2 seconds in game. I think the balance doesn't end up positively given the attention you're giving the functionality and the gain you have in loading those levels. Gonna have to do some serious gaming then and end up with perhaps one match extra /played at the end of a year. If those two extra seconds bother you, you might need to work on your patience more so than your pc ;)

It comes down to the same simple principle as the supposed advantage of having a super duper pro NVME drive: its utterly pointless for gaming. 'Looking for speed'... you're just looking for heavy diminishing returns.

Now of course, if you're just doing it because you like doing it and see the advantages, by all means. But selling it as the better solution disregarding the effort and disadvantages is not doing anyone favors.
Yes, I do it because I like to work optimally with my devices - so yes - it's fun for me.

But I can't get better response/speed with just a more expensive NVME. You just can't get around the way the computer works. The processor looks for the data first in its own cache > ram > storage, with each subsequent step adding latency. You can just think along similar lines - how Ryzen x3D works - it caches the data in its own cache and that saves time, so it all depends on how close the data is to the CPU. Sure, it's very simplistic, but it's just an example of why I prefer it.

Yes, when the data is in the cache but not in storage, it is not "safe" without UPS, as someone above said :)
 
Yes, when the data is in the cache but not in storage, it is not "safe" without UPS, as someone above said :)
I've got a pretty stable energy grid where I live... my computer crashing is significantly more likely than a power outage, especially since I like to overclock.
 
I've got a pretty stable energy grid where I live... my computer crashing is significantly more likely than a power outage, especially since I like to overclock.
With cards costing $700++, I think UPS is just a must.
 
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