NVIDIA's New GPP Program Reportedly Engages in Monopolistic Practices

[Prima.Vera]

nVidia, Intel.... Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Xzibit]

Nvidia’s GeForce Partner Program doesn't stop companies selling AMD GPUs

That makes less sense then the speculation because AIBs were already doing that.

 

[dyonoctis]

That makes less sense then the speculation because AIBs were already doing that.

From my point of view, Nvidia want it to be done as much as possible. Asus mars and ares would rise from the dead, and become a mainstream brand.

That seems and odd thing to do though. They are already in a position of power, and something like "MSI gaming green dragon" isn't going to do much. People already know who they are, I've never heard of anyone who buyed a radeon when he wanted a geforce...

edit: It's purely marketing, nvidia seems really just dead on making their products stand out. If PCGamesN is right, all they want is better communication by having an exclusive brand, and maybe an exclusive shroud design from AIB selling both brands. Put a strix 580 and a strix 1060 side by side, and you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. That might be what they are after.

 

[Xzibit]

edit: It's purely marketing, nvidia seems really just dead on making their products stand out. If PCGamesN is right, all they want is better communication by having an exclusive brand, and maybe an exclusive shroud design from AIB selling both brands. Put a strix 580 and a strix 1060 side by side, and you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. That might be what they are after.

I can see that side of it but first you'd have to take them out of the box and ignore well.. all that labeling

 

[Rictorhell]

I wish there were more companies that could invest and compete in both CPU design and manufacturing and GPU design and manufacturing, or at the very least just the design aspect of things, in order to give Nvidia AND Intel more competition.

AMD, as far as I can tell, have done pretty well with their CPUs lately; Ryzen, Threadripper, etcetera, but they have to become more competitive with their graphics cards. They have lost ground to Nvidia, if not in solely graphics processing then in efficiency and power usage.

If I love computers and I am thinking of building a system with a discreet graphics card, even at today's insane prices, and at purchase time I am barely giving a thought to AMD because I know their graphics cards have underwhelmed, for a while, that's bad.

Nvidia, right now, in my opinion, just has the better reputation and the superior product, and they know it. That's one reason they've jacked up their prices, even before the Bitcoin craziness.

There have been a ton of complaints about the drivers for AMD's cards not being up to snuff or being rough at the time of introduction, which is another area they need to work on.

AMD still needs to work on getting investors interested in them, they're still getting outgunned by Intel and AMD. They are doing much better competing with Intel these days but they have to channel more resources into the GPU side of the company. Nvidia has too much muscle, financially and intellectually and AMD isn't going to be able to counter that and regain mindshare without an awesome product that is also as efficient as Nvidia's stuff, if not more so.

 

[dyonoctis]

I can see that side of it but first you'd have to take them out of the box and ignore well.. all that labeling

That's why I still find this odd...there isn't a real need for this, gamers have been able to make their purchasse without any trouble...that seems more like a whim from Nvidia.

But the initial idea of having the "premium" gaming brand being Nvidia only, just seems too bold...I just don't see why they would try to pull out something that could backlash, when they don't have any reason to do so.

 

[John Naylor]

All I see is the implication that if MSI [Insert Model Line name] is going to be used for an nVidia card as a "partner", then MSI would have to call their premium AMD special card something else if they wanted to maintain partner status.... which makes perfect sense. If nVidia works with a "partner" to loosen up clock restrictions for a special line ... let's say MSI Lightspeed series, then, after investing all that T & E into making that card stand out, nVidia is entitled to protect that fame from being used in another model series from a competitor. You don't want to deal with that, then don't whine about not getting that kind of assistance. That doesn't stop MSI from using "WarpDrive' with their special AMD cards.

 

[Xzibit]

All I see is the implication that if MSI [Insert Model Line name] is going to be used for an nVidia card as a "partner", then MSI would have to call their premium AMD special card something else if they wanted to maintain partner status.... which makes perfect sense. If nVidia works with a "partner" to loosen up clock restrictions for a special line ... let's say MSI Lightspeed series, then, after investing all that T & E into making that card stand out, nVidia is entitled to protect that fame from being used in another model series from a competitor. You don't want to deal with that, then don't whine about not getting that kind of assistance. That doesn't stop MSI from using "WarpDrive' with their special AMD cards.

Its MSI who is spending that T & E already to improve upon the reference design. That is more of a "Give us your best brand recognition". What about others like ASUS that has the ROG not just for GPU but across various other products.

Essentially Nvidia in this scenario is asking to piggy back on the reputation of others well established gaming brands through association with exclusivity and non-GPP loosing out on launch-day availability. Might be weeks. months for a non-GPP is able to produce and put a product on the shelves.

 

[rtwjunkie]

As I have noted above (and this a general question, not aimed directly at you), can you spell out which part of this agreement you have a problem with?

Ooh, ooh, I can! I have had a preferred 80% of the time GPU brand known as MSI. Up till now they have always had remarkable optimization of their GPU’s.

As I understood it after reading the [H] article earlier, MSI (and others) will not receive preferential optimization help from NVIDIA because they also sell AMD (I corrected because I accidentally wrote MSI again). This can translate into not being to match Nvidia exclusive brands like EVGA in performance. This is assuming Nvidia doesn’t hold back chips, which is left vague.

Yeah, I’ve got a problem with it.

 

[Steevo]

As I have noted above (and this a general question, not aimed directly at you), can you spell out which part of this agreement you have a problem with?

The part where funds, and high level engineering help willl be withheld. How does that NOT violate anti-monopoly, or anti-trust laws?

 

[John Naylor]

I think you missed the point I was targeting ....or maybe I explained poorly. Look at it from a baseppoint that recognizes that the hi end componentry going into the Lightning, Classified, etc just isn't bringing anything tot he table anymore ... at least not enough to justify the cost premium. performance is determined by the PCB or the GFPU, it's goverened by

1. Nvidia has been clamping down both physically and legally on what "board partners" are permitted to do.
2. Several generations back, a Classified, Lighting, etc would have a significant performance advantage because of the leeway that partners had back then.
3. The added value provided by such "supercard" has been insignificant since the 7xx series.
4. Since Boost 3 came along ,... and no BIOS editor to boot... there's been only a teeny performance difference between the numerous card lines offered by manufacturers. Often the next model up, has better cooler, an All all the fancy hi end componentry ya want to the PCB, it can't do beans if the control settings are going to limit speeds regardless.
5. With max temps at 82C, we have many cards operating on the mid 60s ...so there's way more room cause Boost3's controls apply to the reference card on up with few exceptions.

So given this situation as today's base point... it would be a smart move on nVidia's part to open up certain tweaks to "special partners" who agree to these terms. Nvidia could say to MSI ... hey we love what you've been doing with the Lightning ... as a "special partner", if you agree to limit the usage of the line to only nvidia cards, we believe that we can relax the boost clock limits and allow significantkly higher performance limits for that line... when the driver detects its a Lightning ... you will get +40 bost clocks..

 

[rtwjunkie]

So given this situation as today's base point... it would be a smart move on nVidia's part to open up certain tweaks to "special partners" who agree to these terms. Nvidia could say to MSI ... hey we love what you've been doing with the Lightning ... as a "special partner", if you agree to limit the usage of the line to only nvidia cards, we believe that we can relax the boost clock limits and allow significantkly higher performance limits for that line... when the driver detects its a Lightning ... you will get +40 bost clocks..

Wow....80% of my cards have been Nvidia, so I feel safe in saying: Wow, you’ve got the Koolaid hooked up to an intravenous bag.

 

[John Naylor]

As I understood it after reading the [H] article earlier, MSI (and others) will not receive preferential optimization help from NVIDIA because they also sell MSI. This can translate into not being to match Nvidia exclusive brands like EVGA in performance. This is assuming Nvidia doesn’t hold back chips, which is left vague.

Yeah, I’ve got a problem with it.

Msi wont get help cause MSI they also sells MSI ? I think you mixed terms there but I know what ya intended. Read the article linked in post 25 which paints a different picture. What it says is ...

MSI can become an nVidia partner with their "Cofee" line ... but not of they call their AMD based cards "Cofee" also
MSI "Coffee" for nVidia cards is fine as long as it's MSI "Doughnuts" for the AMD line .

Wow....80% of my cards have been Nvidia, so I feel safe in saying: Wow, you’ve got the Koolaid hooked up to an intravenous bag.

Wow talk about left field ... I wasn't expressing a personal opinion. I just took the time to read the link in post 25 and summarize what it said. If you have an issue with it, take it up with them.

 

[kruk]

MSI can become an nVidia partner with their "Cofee" line ... but not of they call their AMD based cards "Cofee" also
MSI "Coffee" for nVidia cards is fine as long as it's MSI "Doughnuts" for the AMD line .

It would be OK if the partners would establish a NEW brand exclusively for nVidia, but they very likely won't. They will user their TOP brands for nVidia and move AMD to budget or noname (or completely erase them) - you can figure out on your own how the sales will go and what this means for PC gaming ...

 

[rtwjunkie]

@John Naylor Actually, I read the original reveal article (actually researched by [H], long before the new one. And yes, I did read the new one. It pretty much makes clear that preferential treatment and engineering help only goes to those who give up AMD.

P. S. I did make an error on the MSI. I’m glad you understand I meant AMD.

 

[Xzibit]

Msi wont get help cause MSI they also sells MSI ? I think you mixed terms there but I know what ya intended. Read the article linked in post 25 which paints a different picture. What it says is ...

You mean this ?

But we’ve done our own digging into the story and from what we’ve uncovered the truth of the matter is the transparency Nvidia are chasing is about making it clear which graphics card range from a company is based on GeForce tech and which are running AMD’s GPUs. It's not about stopping a company from having a separate AMD-based gaming brand.

Thats already been done with the labeling as pointed above.

Graphics card companies can then have as many brands as they like, so long as they are separated along green and red boundaries. That means Asus could have a Republic of Gamers Mars brand, which only sells Nvidia, but also a Republic of Gamers Ares brand that is exclusively AMD-based. GPP isn’t going to stop any company from selling AMD GPUs as specifically gaming graphics cards.

Sounds like taking over AIBs/OEMs brand exclusively like I pointed out.

HardOCP haven’t been able to get any prospective GeForce partners to go on record to talk about their concerns with the new program, but have still made their own rather serious claims about it, which from our understanding seem to be entirely based on some confused messaging in the GPP documentation they've seen.

Sounds like they PCGN havent seen it. The author replies in comments with

From what I've heard from the people involved the program simply doesn't limit a company's ability to produce graphics cards with the competition's GPUs at their heart, nor does it punish them for doing so, so I don't see how it's meant to affect consumer choice.

He never mentions where he got that information. Kyle at least points to talking with 7 OEMs/AIBs and sending correspondence to Nvidia. PCGN piece doesn't say or hint at where their information is coming from. Kyle right or wrong put his rep on the line and that of HardOcp.

 

[the54thvoid]

Time for perspective.

So, if you dont sign up to GPP, you keep going as normal? If MSI, Asus and Gigabyte don't sign they can still do all the things they do. The only anti-competitve part will be if Nvidia withhold the OEM boards/chips that they buy up to produce their AIB cards (and that would lead them straight to court if it was found to be so). Conversely, if you do sign up you must brand your AIB cards with the Geforce/Nvidia logo and you get help with marketing and engineering help. Kyle has used anonymous sources to say Nvidia will not allow you to sell AMD. That can't be trusted at face value unless we're being utterly hypocritical. How often do we criticise TPU for 'unsourced' news material yet we're willing to believe Kyle because he says it on the back of his report?

This one has to be watched as it develops. I'm not bothered either way. If I want the best AMD card, I'd probably buy from AMD only brand Sapphire anyway (the largest supplier of AMD graphics cards in the world).

 

[john_]

Nothing strange here. Nvidia was dictating to it's own customers what GPU they could use. You could either buy ONLY Nvidia GPUs and have access to CUDA and PhysX, or be a less loyal subject, buy AMD hardware, and lose those two techs. The "Way it's Meant To Be Played" program, was also accused as a problematic way of promoting Nvidia hardware against the competition. Who can forget that Ubisoft removed DirectX 10.1 support from Assassin's Creed because at the time Nvidia didn't had a DX10.1 graphics card in the market, while AMD had, with it's cards getting a nice boost from that version of DirectX in certain cases? GameWorks is also a closed library and in the past there where people accusing Nvidia of using it not only to make the competing hardware look bad, but also older Geforce cards, forcing people to upgrade to the latest series.

 

[oxidized]

I know, but it gets tiresome after a while.
And it doesn't have to be Nvidia. It can be Intel. Or Apple. Or Google. Any top dog will do.

I was being sarcastic my friend.

 

[Xzibit]

Time for perspective.

So, if you dont sign up to GPP, you keep going as normal? If MSI, Asus and Gigabyte don't sign they can still do all the things they do. The only anti-competitve part will be if Nvidia withhold the OEM boards/chips that they buy up to produce their AIB cards (and that would lead them straight to court if it was found to be so). Conversely, if you do sign up you must brand your AIB cards with the Geforce/Nvidia logo and you get help with marketing and engineering help. Kyle has used anonymous sources to say Nvidia will not allow you to sell AMD. That can't be trusted at face value unless we're being utterly hypocritical. How often do we criticise TPU for 'unsourced' news material yet we're willing to believe Kyle because he says it on the back of his report?

This one has to be watched as it develops. I'm not bothered either way. If I want the best AMD card, I'd probably buy from AMD only brand Sapphire anyway (the largest supplier of AMD graphics cards in the world).

Nvidia already had that covered with NPFP (Nvidia PartnerForce Program).

Nvidia PartnerForce Program is the sales and marketing program for Value-Added Resellers, System Builders, Etailers, and Retailers who sell NVIDIA graphics cards, components, or systems.

GPP is a new program.

Kyle is like W1zzard saying he has done a 3 week investigation speaking to companies and is writing the story himself on it. Not like the News writers doing click-bait pieces without a source.

 

[the54thvoid]

Nvidia already had that covered with NPFP (Nvidia PartnerForce Program).



GPP is a new program.

Kyle is like W1zzard saying he has done a 3 week investigation speaking to companies and is writing the story himself on it. Not like the News writers doing click-bait pieces without a source.

Fair point. Well, regardless, it's something to watch as it's yet to come to fruition.

There is one caveat to everything and that would be if Kyle ends up with a surprise job offer from AMD. lol - look at me making fake news!

 

[RejZoR]

Imagine if AMD forced everyone to make games exclusively for them since they own the entire console market... This is what NVIDIA is actually already doing, but on PC.

Nvidia’s GeForce Partner Program doesn't stop companies selling AMD GPUs

Why force them to stop, instead you pressure them into stop selling them themselves, because it'll be so anti-competitive they'll have to drop them. They stop making AMD cards, NVIDIA walks away with clean hands. Perfect plan.

 

[Xzibit]

Fair point. Well, regardless, it's something to watch as it's yet to come to fruition.

There is one caveat to everything and that would be if Kyle ends up with a surprise job offer from AMD. lol - look at me making fake news!

He wasn't the only one alerted to it as his article points out

Before we go any further, in the effort to be as transparent as possible, we need to let you know that AMD came to us and presented us with "this story." AMD shopped this story with other websites as well. However, with the information that was presented to us by AMD, there was no story to be told, but it surely pointed to one that was worth looking into. There needed to be some legwork done in collecting facts and interviews.

Others have also hinted at other possible articles

Due to possible defamation lawsuit. I knew some journos who wanted to cover it, but they were short on evidence.

You can ask questions and get answers, but no one wanted to go on record.

I don't know French (translator) but CanardPC said they have something in their next issue.

 

[bug]

The part where funds, and high level engineering help willl be withheld. How does that NOT violate anti-monopoly, or anti-trust laws?

Except that' not in the GPP. That's what partners said they fear woudl happen, but that not part of the GPP and can be settled in court if it comes to pass.

How about the part where they almost force the AIBs to sign up if they want to stay launch partners, receive more than just ref PCB designs or dont want to be degraded to 2nd class customers..

See above.

Ooh, ooh, I can! I have had a preferred 80% of the time GPU brand known as MSI. Up till now they have always had remarkable optimization of their GPU’s.

As I understood it after reading the [H] article earlier, MSI (and others) will not receive preferential optimization help from NVIDIA because they also sell AMD (I corrected because I accidentally wrote MSI again). This can translate into not being to match Nvidia exclusive brands like EVGA in performance. This is assuming Nvidia doesn’t hold back chips, which is left vague.

Yeah, I’ve got a problem with it.

I think this is where we read things differntly. The "agreement" doesn't bar anyone from selling AMD video cards. It just says the if a brand has a gaming line, that line must be made up entirely of Nvidia cards. It doesn't bar the manufacturer from having a similar line, but for AMD products. Of course, I misread and you got it right, it would be lousy move. And again, one that probalby won't stand in court.

I was being sarcastic my friend.

I got that, but apprently my reply didn't convey it well enough

 

[the54thvoid]

I will say again mind, what if nobody signs up to it anyway? I mean why would they if the current status quo exists.