Particular sequence of use ends up with corrutped file system when using USB3 SATA dock

[skizzo]

Hi all I've got a bit of a story to tell. I have been having one hell of a time lately dealing with corrupted file systems or system volume information for disks that I have been using in a SATAIII dock that connects to the PC via USB3. It really came to a head when I built a new SFF system for living room couch gaming and media consumption....I didn't want to specifically double up disks to store games or videos. So using docks made total sense! Just move the disks between the docks as needed.

After lots of trouble shooting I found a specific sequence of actions can (WILL) corrupt a disks file system. If I put disk A in slot A and disk B in slot B, power on the system, eventually I'll shut down the system, then put disk A in slot B and disk B in slot A.....upon next power up of the system disks are now messed up. It literally seems to assign the wrong system volume information to the wrong disk.....ie disk A is now labeled with disk B name and disk B is now labeled with disk A name. So it basically has no idea what files are actually there anymore and is corrupted

I've been able to corrupt disks like this using both Windows 10 and Windows 11 so I don't think it's just the operating system but one would have to think it's got something to do with how Windows handles internal type disks when connected via USB. This can also happen even when moving between different docks on different systems. That's how I first discovered it so I was surprised that any related complaint I found they never mentioned multiple systems.

Is this just some grossly overlooked flaw of using USB SATA docks that no manufacturer cared to take notice of or prevent? Or do you think the issue is with Windows and how it disconnects peripheral devices such as disk connected over a USB cable? Maybe something to do with how it enumerates disks that are connected to the same USB "mass storage device"? I would find it offensive to think this is the end users fault/error as there should be no requirement to plug the disk into the same exact slot after a subsequent power cycle. It would be different if this was mentioned somewhere, anywhere in any sort of documentation but I have yet to find anything that conveys it to a consumer or to anyone at that.


The docks I've been using....they are different brand and one is two slot and the other is four slot and problem can occur on both so it's not related to just a single defective unit

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PX2HHD6?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G2WRB97?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

The disks are totally healthy. No errors of any kind reported in SMART type data. Only the file system or system volume info is getting corrupted. After a clean with diskpart and reformatting the disks are 100% useable again

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Hi all I've got a bit of a story to tell. I have been having one hell of a time lately dealing with corrupted file systems or system volume information for disks that I have been using in a SATAIII dock that connects to the PC via USB3. It really came to a head when I built a new SFF system for living room couch gaming and media consumption....I didn't want to specifically double up disks to store games or videos. So using docks made total sense! Just move the disks between the docks as needed.

After lots of trouble shooting I found a specific sequence of actions can (WILL) corrupt a disks file system. If I put disk A in slot A and disk B in slot B, power on the system, eventually I'll shut down the system, then put disk A in slot B and disk B in slot A.....upon next power up of the system disks are now messed up. It literally seems to assign the wrong system volume information to the wrong disk.....ie disk A is now labeled with disk B name and disk B is now labeled with disk A name. So it basically has no idea what files are actually there anymore and is corrupted

I've been able to corrupt disks like this using both Windows 10 and Windows 11 so I don't think it's just the operating system but one would have to think it's got something to do with how Windows handles internal type disks when connected via USB. This can also happen even when moving between different docks on different systems. That's how I first discovered it so I was surprised that any related complaint I found they never mentioned multiple systems.

Is this just some grossly overlooked flaw of using USB SATA docks that no manufacturer cared to take notice of or prevent? Or do you think the issue is with Windows and how it disconnects peripheral devices such as disk connected over a USB cable? Maybe something to do with how it enumerates disks that are connected to the same USB "mass storage device"? I would find it offensive to think this is the end users fault/error as there should be no requirement to plug the disk into the same exact slot after a subsequent power cycle. It would be different if this was mentioned somewhere, anywhere in any sort of documentation but I have yet to find anything that conveys it to a consumer or to anyone at that.


The docks I've been using....they are different brand and one is two slot and the other is four slot and problem can occur on both so it's not related to just a single defective unit

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PX2HHD6?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G2WRB97?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

The disks are totally healthy. No errors of any kind reported in SMART type data. Only the file system or system volume info is getting corrupted. After a clean with diskpart and reformatting the disks are 100% useable again

Are you letting the pc auto assign a drive letter?!. Manually assign high letter's like R or T.

Are you using GPT or MBR partitions.

Is it game data ?!

 

[skizzo]

Are you letting the pc auto assign a drive letter?!. Manually assign high letter's like R or T.

Are you using GPT or MBR partitions.

Is it game data ?!

GPT partitions and I do manually assign drive letters. It's all sorts of data, games, videos, programs etc.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

GPT partitions and I do manually assign drive letters. It's all sorts of data, games, videos, programs etc.

Ok so they're both connected via usb to sata circuits and chips are you always removing them via the OS prior to physical removal?.

I use a 1TB nvme in an adapter it hasn't ever corrupted for me tbh but it's not a identical situation.

I don't think corruption should be happening though.

 

[jon_joy_1999]

I think the corruption he's referring to is Windows not being able to find D:\Foo\Bar when it's now on E:\Foo\Bar, and more specifically, Windows not sensing that the drive that was in the position of D: is now in the position of E:. I think basically this boils down to Windows expecting non-removable drives to not be swapped around.

 

[skizzo]

to make sure this is clear, I can make perfect use of these docks.....as long as I am aware of this terrible quirk that I would like to call a bug or a flaw. It just cost me a ton of time dicking around and troubleshooting to figure out exactly what actions created the issue. when I googled this problem there are quite a few complaints but no real good explanations. when I have more time I plan to troubleshoot further to see if doing an extra reboot between the power off step, and swapping the disks from slot to slot, makes any difference. I have a hunch there is some sort of data being saved that says "If there are still 2 disks in this 2 slot dock when I shutdown such as slot 1 = disk ABC and slot 2 = disk XYZ. then I expect slot 1 to be disk ABC and slot 2 to be disk XYZ upon power up" so when I swap them and power on, it is messed up. So I wonder if a reboot would wipe any data that is stored.....it's just a theory that might be total bogus baloney from a technical standpoint. I'm just picking away at the problem making baby steps at a time here lol

I think the corruption he's referring to is Windows not being able to find D:\Foo\Bar when it's now on E:\Foo\Bar, and more specifically, Windows not sensing that the drive that was in the position of D: is now in the position of E:. I think basically this boils down to Windows expecting non-removable drives to not be swapped around.

this sounds plausible and what I've been thinking too.

I will add, Windows 10 almost is never capable of ejecting these disks via the USB eject tray icon. Usually says they are in use, despite not being in use. When this happens I start closing (killing processes) of stuff like Steam and restart Windows Explorer, etc, anything I can think of that might have a hold of one of the disks.

Windows 11 on the other hand, almost always can eject these disks. Sometimes I still need to close a couple processes to get there, but I can always get there. Or last resort, a reboot and then eject them on that next startup.

Windows 10 still says they are in use even after a reboot. Makes no sense. But it's not part of the root cause since I have moved them plenty of times OK with just shutting down. And I've also been able to corrupt them after ejecting them on Windows 11 via the tray icon, and doing the shutdown, swap disks in dock slots, and power up system steps.


It just boggles my mind a piece of hardware or software would be built like this that has such potential to basically destroy data in an instant. So consider this whole post me trying to figure out if I am making some stupid mistake myself, or if there is an inherent flaw in the design. Going off joy_joy_1999 comment, I kinda am leaning on that too. That Windows just doesn't expect to see internal type disks swapped around on a shutdown/cold boot cycle. But then again.....there is one more critical added part I think, it's because they are connected via USB. Because I have absolutely swapped disks around when connected directly to the motherboard SATA ports and not had an issue.




I notice the disks in the dock get enumerated in a specific order. For ex for the system in my specs. I have 2 internal disk, that are actually internally connected so they take up disk 0 and disk 1 in Disk Management. If I plug in 3 more disks into the 4 slot dock (lets say slots 1-3) they will in turn come up as disk 2, 3, and 4 in disk management respectively. This all makes sense to me so far. So if I wonder if this enumeration order also has something to do with it.......with that said. I wonder if I could take another troubleshooting step by putting disk ABC into dock A, and put disk XYZ into dock B, both docks connected to the same system. Then go through the steps I found that corrupt the disks and see if that matters. Like maybe this can only happen if the disks are swapped around within a single dock, but it wouldn't matter if they were swapped between two separate docks

 

[jon_joy_1999]

Have you tried swapping the drives, recognizing that they're swapped, and then swapping them back to the original configuration?

 

[skizzo]

Ok so they're both connected via usb to sata circuits and chips are you always removing them via the OS prior to physical removal?.

not all the time, but I haven't found a direct connection to doing or not doing the OS eject via the tray icon. it doesn't seem to make it better, or worse whichever way I do it.

Have you tried swapping the drives, recognizing that they're swapped, and then swapping them back to the original configuration?

I think I did it once, but I also think I tried to run chkdsk at that point in time in an attempt to fix them. Which likely "repaired" things in such a way that made it worse, Id assume basically swapping all the system volume info and file system stuff. The disks would basically be RAW at this point, and may or may not show up with any name. Sometimes just generic "Local Disk" instead otherwise they wouldn't be seen at all by Window File Explorer and would be RAW in Disk Management

But yeah I'll add that to my troubleshoot to do list to see what happens!

this is the error message I would receive when trying to access any of these disks when they do become messed up for reference

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

not all the time, but I haven't found a direct connection to doing or not doing the OS eject via the tray icon. it doesn't seem to make it better, or worse whichever way I do it.


I think I did it once, but I also think I tried to run chkdsk at that point in time in an attempt to fix them. Which likely "repaired" things in such a way that made it worse, Id assume basically swapping all the system volume info and file system stuff. The disks would basically be RAW at this point, and may or may not show up with any name. Sometimes just generic "Local Disk" instead otherwise they wouldn't be seen at all by Window File Explorer and would be RAW in Disk Management

But yeah I'll add that to my troubleshoot to do list to see what happens!

this is the error message I would receive when trying to access any of these disks when they do become messed up for reference

View attachment 298762

I do think you need to eject every time a HDD I can't say that's it but that has been it sometimes for me.

 

[jon_joy_1999]

I do think you need to eject every time a HDD I can't say that's it but that has been it sometimes for me.

Ejection just flushes any read or write queues to the drive and dismounts it in the disk management system so no other writes are attempted before its removed.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Ejection just flushes any read or write queues to the drive and dismounts it in the disk management system so no other writes are attempted before its removed.

I know right, so just unplugging it then negates those tasks happening, and sometimes on a HDD attached through a interface chip and usb3 , it messes up, remember it's not a usb stick.

See bold I think that matters, just switching your puck/adapter off stops that, no?!.

I do own such things to backup my PCs to an 8TB drive and another drive.

As well as drive cages , I wasn't spouting random, just what I have seen happen.

 

[jon_joy_1999]

I know right, so just unplugging it then negates those tasks happening, and sometimes on a HDD attached through a interface chip and usb3 , it messes up, remember it's not a usb stick.

See bold I think that matters, just switching your puck/adapter off stops that, no?!.

This seems to be a different situation. It doesn't look like OP is turning the docks off before shutting down the computer. Even if the docks are externally powered, turning off the computer dismounts the drives and allows them to be removed.

 

[skizzo]

This seems to be a different situation. It doesn't look like OP is turning the docks off before shutting down the computer. Even if the docks are externally powered, turning off the computer dismounts the drives and allows them to be removed.

Yes I think you described what I do. To clarify here is a normal shutdown process for me...

1. Shutdown Windows 10 via the Start Menu
2. Wait at least 30 seconds for disks to fully power down after hearing PSU "click" off
   1. this is very obvious when using a HDD in the dock since I can hear the spinning noise come to a stop, but with SSDs I still wait just as long to make sure they were given adequate time to do their business to turn off safely)
3. Disconnect POWER to the USB SATA dock via a power switch
4. Remove disk(s)

Though I can do it differently and have done so during my testing. Another sequence for ex when in Windows 11

1. Windows 11 is still powered on and running
2. Disconnect the dock via tray icon (you technically disconnect the dock rather than individual disks when using these)
3. Power off the dock via the power switch
4. Shutdown Windows 11 via the Start Menu

Weird thing here is when I do this and power back up with OUT doing another boot cycle, the startup time takes FOREVER (even with all SSDs) at appearance of the desktop for the next boot. Like maybe 2 or 3 mins for the desktop to become usable. It acts like the disks are messed up again even though they weren't even removed from the dock. They show up as "Local Disk" for about a nano second when the system becomes usable and I open Windows File Explorer but immediately I can see the displayed name change to their assigned name such as "8TB Media" or whatever I've given them. On the dual slot dock I notice slightly different behavior with their indicator lights when I do this sequence too. There is one light that is green and will blink when the unit is powered on, but has no PC connection. The light will be solid green when a PC connection is detected. There are two amber lights which show they have detected a disk is physically installed in the slot and will blink when there is read or write activity. When I do the 4 steps above in Windows 11 and then power the dock back up without another boot cycle in between turning the dock back on the green light stays solid......even when the PC is OFF! This.....doesn't seem proper. it's indicating that it thinks there is an active PC connection.....I mean there is a USB cable currently plugged in but the damn PC is powered off lol! It NORMALLY would be blinking here. If I do do a reboot before powering the dock back on the green light will rightfully be blinking and the startup time is around 30secs like normal. So there is def something different going on with reboots being done in between and why I will want to return to troubleshooting it when time allows


I never prematurely disconnect the disks via yanking them out of a powered on dock, nor do I flip the power switch to the dock when it's still connected to an active PC. So as far as I know I'm not doing anything that has potential to stop any activities/tasks that would only happen when disconnected or powered off from a designated method. I am actively trying to follow all normal rules and protocol to proper disk ejection and powering off the system.

Thank you Jon_joy_1999 and TheoneandonlyMrK for engaging with me here! I don't think we will necessarily resolve any bit of the root problem but I certainly hope this conversation helps someone else who might find themselves up the same creek I was....without a paddle lol. So anything more you both or anyone else has to share or just add as a comment, please keep it coming! Again, not necessarily to solve a problem, but to help understand it and share our experiences. With your feedback I kinda think this is a baked in issue to how the OS works with internal disks being connected externally via a USB SATA dock. This is a bit of a niche use case and would be plausible to say nothing like this was ever thought about during testing of the units or the concept of connecting multiple SATA disks over the same USB connection.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

This seems to be a different situation. It doesn't look like OP is turning the docks off before shutting down the computer. Even if the docks are externally powered, turning off the computer dismounts the drives and allows them to be removed.

Yeah it's been a long day I could have miss interpreted, no harm done, I wasn't at the solder and hope stage yet

But confusing, I would ask , these docks do they have drive copy support, could it be onboard it.

I've only ever had it loose it's drive letter, fixed by giving it a drive letter recently tbh but tbf I mess mostly with one disk at a time or two in separate adapters on one pc.

Odd issue OP, good luck.

 

[skizzo]

But confusing, I would ask , these docks do they have drive copy support, could it be onboard it.

I think you're asking if these docks have offline copy/clone support? Like it can copy the disk in slot A and clone it to the disk in slot B even when the dock isn't plugged into a PC....they do! But I wouldn't think that would come into play for the issue at hand unless you know something I don't here?

I've only ever had it loose it's drive letter, fixed by giving it a drive letter recently tbh but tbf I mess mostly with one disk at a time or two in separate adapters on one pc.

Odd issue OP, good luck.

I had no issues for the longest time, like a couple years. But I also was only using one dual slot dock and normally just 1 disk in it at a time. Even if I had both slots populated I wouldn't have been doing something like shutting down just to flip flop them around so that is why I never had the problem until now. I only started seeing problems after building a new system for the living room about two months ago and at this point disks are getting pulled in and out of the docks more often and I start getting corruption and this lead me down the rabbit hole of the last couple weeks of figuring out the exact sequence of actions to create the issue.

 

[skizzo]

I think I just accidentally stumbled onto an answer why this is occurring! I just made another post here about how disabling fast startup resolved an issue related to custom settings with AMD GPUs and getting an error on cold boots. Well, I started reading up on what fast startup really does and how it can have negative impacts and here is this little gem....


What Is “Fast Startup” Mode and How to Enable or Disable It? (minitool.com)

I was def able to make corrupted disks doing that! As I originally thought, this is god damn Windows fault! I felt like I was going fucking nuts due to I always follow all basic rules of connecting and disconnecting devices so I really did not think I was causing this due to prematurely removing, disconnecting, or even connecting them at inappropriate times, pulling power cables out of the wall socket etc type of silly shenanigans that could lead to disk corruption.

I have three OS these disks could have contacted, Windows 10, Windows 11, and macOS 10.14.6
Both Windows installs are on different systems and both had fast startup enabled. macOS 10.14.6 is on the same system as the one with Windows 10, to clarify, I created a Hackintosh hence why it can also boot to macOS.

So if anyone uses these type of dock stations turn that setting off immediately! It is in "Power & Sleep Settings" > "Additional power settings" > "Choose what the power buttons do". You will need to likely click the text "Change settings that are currently unavailable" to allow the Shutdown settings to be altered, which is where fast startup is

 

[jon_joy_1999]

Good to see you have a resolution! I didn't even know Fast Startup was a thing, and it looks like its on by default. Now I know one reason why Windows behaves this way!

 

[skizzo]

Been about 4 months now and not a single worry from me after many exchanges of disks between systems.

I feel confident in understanding the culprit to all my woes was indeed fast startup. With exception of obvious Windows updates, I've changed nothing else about my systems and problem goes away only after disabling fast startup. Everything points to fast startup being the smoking gun.