Suggest DDR2 2x1G sticks that can do 3-3-3 timings

[trodas]

Guys, I wonder, what 2x1G sticks to use in my ASRock 775Dual-VSTA to get the maximum possible ram speed. There are some cool rams out there, that can do very nice speeds, like these - 413MHz, 3-3-3-5 1T timings:

http://hwbot.org/submission/582356_mayk_pcmark_2004_core_2_x6800_(2.93ghz)_13547_marks (but user Mayk is not registred on this forum, so I cannot ask, what rams he used)

- 294MHz, 3-3-3-9 1T timings:

http://hwbot.org/submission/2738623_michaelnm_3dmark2001_se_geforce_6800_gs_(nv42)_agp_42240_marks (user michaelnm asked about witch rams he used)

- 465MHz, 3-3-3-1 (?) 2T (?) timings:

http://hwbot.org/submission/590221_roro_superpi___32m_core_2_x6800_(2.93ghz)_9min_19sec_340ms (no user roro on this forum is registred)


So I would like to know, what rams get, to get similar/same/better results. The aimed CPU is Core Duo Extreme X6800 with FSB 1066MHz, mobo ASRock 775Dual-VSTA (DDR2 667 supported, so 333MHz) and 3-3-3 timings is a *must* reach at such clocks.

All I managed to find ATM is CellShock CS2221440 rams, witch are praised a lot in tests:
http://www.memorybenchmark.net/ram.php?ram=MSC+Vertriebs+GmbH+CS2221440+1GB&id=2592

Show capability of 3-3-3-8 timings (at 1T up to 358MHz, witch is pretty good):
http://www.modlabs.net/page/cellshock-cs2221440-ddr2-ekskljuziv-made-in-germany#.VZWd_oLw7Gg

...and overclockers pushed them a lot too, 440MHz, 3-3-3-5 with 2.51V (ugh) and unknown command rate:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?201773-Micron-D9-GMH-GKX-JKH-etc-club/page91

The results around "3-3-3-5 @ 800 is only good at 2.0-2.1v." would be great, but Google search returned nothing to sale (not even on eBay) for "CellShock CS2221440", so I probably have to look out for alternatives too.

Anyone who can suggest a good 2x1G DDR2 rams with the 1T capable of 3-3-3 timings...? Not need to have TRAS 1, lol. That is probably some sort of error, lol. Cannot imagine that this is a real value

 

[sneekypeet]

I have run TRAS of 1 on DDR2, it is not impossible.

Also most of the kits that would run said speeds were picked up by overclockers long ago and likely ended up dead.

 

[trodas]

Hmmm, I believe that this must be an error. Mainboards cannot even support TRAS settings 1. Mostly they never go under 5, 6 is when they are pretty good. Usually 7+ is the minimum settings possible for TRAS.
You can run TWR at 1, if your rams are really good, but not TRAS. That must be some mistake... no rams that exist can do that IMHO: And hopefully I find someone, who was not pushed these poor chips with too much voltage, that killed them. Some sticks like G-Skill DDR2 2GB 800MHz CL4 (2x1GB) F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK are possible to buy in shops, but CL4 is not what I want.

There are also the 512MB sticks from Corsair DDR2 XMS2-6400, that can do 3-2-2-8 timings at 533MHz (effective). If my overclock speed will be around 266MHz, then 3-2-2-8 timings could be absolutely awesome for DDR2 rams

 

[sneekypeet]

Hmmm, I believe that this must be an error.

Yup I just came in here to lie to you.

 

[Caring1]

Have a look at the list and info on this site: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?90973-The-ultimate-overclocking-DDR2-memory-list!
I would recommend using a single stick of ram if you are going to play with timings.

 

[sneekypeet]

Took a bit of digging, but just to prove you need to find a better motherboard

Although I am sure that even with proof you will say it is impossible!

 

[trodas]

sneekypeet -

Yup I just came in here to lie to you.

Oh, come on! There is a big difference between lying and and error! I have no reason to not believe you, but the TRAS 1 settings on DDR2 rams seems to me to be too hard to believe. And I already stated my reasons:
1 - most DDR2 rams have worser timings that DDR(1) rams, and best DDR(1) TRAS settings I saw was 5. DDR2 therefore presumably will have higher TRAS that 5...
2 - most DDR2 rams show TRAS at about 12 to 15. That is very far from 1, so I believe 1 is just an error.
3 - on overclocking guide ( http://www.tweakers.fr/timings.html ), TRAS is defined as "Usually, tRAS=tCL + tRCD + 2.", so CAS latency + RAS to CAS delay... in the example above it was 3 + 3 + 2 = 7, not 1. Therefore if there is 1, then either this is the CAS + TRAS + 1 (6) or it is an error.
4 - most (if not all?) mainboards cannot even set TRAS that low, as 1 - my MSI PM8M3-V (VIA P4M800) can do lowest setting on TRAS to 5 (upper limit is 20), my ASRock 775Dual-VSTA (VIA PT880 Pro) can do no less that 5 (upper limit is again 20, but for example TRFC limits are 8 to 71...!)


Caring1 - good link, thanks! There is another one, showing witch chips are used in what rams: http://ramlist.i4memory.com/ddr2/ Suggested are to get Micron D9Gxx chips.


sneekypeet -

Took a bit of digging, but just to prove you need to find a better motherboard

Whoa, well... hard to compate with DFI P35 mobo Still you need MemSet to activate TRAS like that, right?

Although I am sure that even with proof you will say it is impossible!

Well, nope. Not anymore. All what was need to convince me that this IS possible was to read the MemSet options:
- All Precharge to Refesh delay - 4
- Act. to Act. Delayed - 3
- All Precharge to Activate - 4

So, after all these added delays (11 counted ATM) I now believe that adding just 1 is enought. The real precharge delay will be then 12, witch is absolutely normal

I dubt you are satisfacted with my reply, but at least I learned that TRAS 1 settings are sometimes possible

To make you happy again, there is how my poor Celeron D 336 (Prescott core) perform compared to your Core 2 Duo E6400:

 

[brandonwh64]

Would it not be a good time to upgrade? Hell even a APU would murder that setup.

 

[sneekypeet]

Whoa, well... hard to compate with DFI P35 mobo Still you need MemSet to activate TRAS like that, right?

Memset was only used to show the timings outside of what CPU-Z would show as I was also working on lowering secondaries in bios as well, which CPU-Z would not show.

 

[Caring1]

4 - most (if not all?) mainboards cannot even set TRAS that low, as 1 - my MSI PM8M3-V (VIA P4M800) can do lowest setting on TRAS to 5 (upper limit is 20), my ASRock 775Dual-VSTA (VIA PT880 Pro) can do no less that 5 (upper limit is again 20, but for example TRFC limits are 8 to 71...!)

Via chip sets aren't the best overclocking chips, from what I remember they are very limited.

 

[mroofie]

Would it not be a good time to upgrade? Hell even a APU would murder that setup.

But but but..... it has already murdered yours

 

[brandonwh64]

But but but..... it has already murdered yours

lol WUT?

 

[trodas]

brandonwh64 -

Would it not be a good time to upgrade? Hell even a APU would murder that setup.

What? Upgrade? Why? Well... this setup is actually faster that the P4 on witch I writing this text And yep, it is not that fast these days, but it is fun. So why upgrade? The aim is to try, how fast can the AGP cards run on Core 2 Duo. And these are pretty fast CPUs
And I never played yet with DDR2 rams, so it is about time I try them Having only experienced SDRAMs, DDRs and few DDR3 rams like the G-Skill Ripjaws.

BTW, your suggested APU probably won't have drivers for WinXP, do it?


sneekypeet -

Memset was only used to show the timings outside of what CPU-Z would show as I was also working on lowering secondaries in bios as well, which CPU-Z would not show.

Hmmm, then it looks like DFI mobos aren't detoriated from their NF2 times and they still offer plenty of timings (How about these BIOS settings? http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/t...pecial-bios-settings-help-explain-pls.214094/ ) Congratulations, then on a very good mobo. But as I demonstrated above, my disbelief was quickly cured, when I read about so many delays added to the precharge delay. Thanks for the info!
...and of course, keep pushing these timings down, when possible
I would like to have that rams: rated at 3-3-3-12 and can run 3-2-2-8 at 340MHz:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/1951/7
Crucial Ballistix DDR2 PC2-5300

But it is question where to buy them. Most searches turn out a CL4/CL5 versions of Crucial DDR2 rams, or some of the new versions that are nowhere near as good, so that is not good...


Caring1 -

Via chip sets aren't the best overclocking chips, from what I remember they are very limited.

I cannot argue against that, but since no-other board support Core 2 Duo + AGP + DDR2, then I'm stuck with it. I have to manage the best out of it.


mroofie -

But but but..... it has already murdered yours

This thread is hardly about getting pretty powerfull setup. Much rather is about setting the old mainboard with the best components to get the fastest possible result withing the constrains of Core 2 Duo and AGP. Sure there come APU setups, that could kill (speed-wise) this setup, but since they cannot use WinXP, then I did not care much about them. With Win7 I feel like I'm being locked up in my own computer and I did not like that.
But thanks to good friend, I have a i5 / GTX 660 FTW for modern games to play.
Yet still I prefer my old machines

Something wrong with me? Perhaps

 

[mroofie]

lol WUT?

 

[brandonwh64]

brandonwh64 -

What? Upgrade? Why? Well... this setup is actually faster that the P4 on witch I writing this text And yep, it is not that fast these days, but it is fun. So why upgrade? The aim is to try, how fast can the AGP cards run on Core 2 Duo. And these are pretty fast CPUs
And I never played yet with DDR2 rams, so it is about time I try them Having only experienced SDRAMs, DDRs and few DDR3 rams like the G-Skill Ripjaws.

BTW, your suggested APU probably won't have drivers for WinXP, do it?

Well possibly. Most of the older FM2 boards had Xp drivers and there is probably drivers for these newer boards for XP from the manufacturers site. They are very nice and you do not have to worry about ageing hardware

 

[suraswami]

check my FS thread, may be you can try the PNY XLR8, they are awesome clockers. The Ballistix run at 4-4-4-12 at DDR2 6400.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/mobos-cpus-and-ram.214074/

 

[de.das.dude]

i have myself run 4-4-4 on ocz platinums that were handed down to me by the wonder tpu community.. so definitely possible.
However any sticks that can be found now would be old and I am really skeptical if they will be able to do anything other than their stock timings now.

 

[basco]

hey trodas, on hwbot you go to the username and then klick on hardware library-there you can sometimes see what ram the user had.
http://hwbot.org/user/mayk/#Hardware_Library

mostly all good clocking rams these days had micron(=crucial) d9gmh\gkx on but only early models with micron d9d(in red) where really good for thight timings with hi9gh volts and often only in 2x512mb.
here you can get an idea of
http://ramlist.i4memory.com/ddr2/

 

[trodas]

brandonwh64 -

your suggested APU probably won't have drivers for WinXP, do it?

Well possibly. Most of the older FM2 boards had Xp drivers and there is probably drivers for these newer boards for XP from the manufacturers site.

I hope you did not take it as insult, but I cannot go to buy hardware based on "possibly" and "most." And most reviews did not concentrate on this, so I'm stuck. Unless I know for SURE and there ARE the drivers for download specifically for XP, then I will _NOT_ go with that path.
Also you mention FM2. Nothing against AMD, but IIRC their CCC required .NETframework, witch I will never use again (it is a good backdoor for hacks). So I would prefer Intel. Also because Intel have higher IPC effectivity and much, much stronger single thread performance, witch matter most. But whatever - if you can suggest a good APU, witch will work with WinXP SP3 w/o .NETframework, then I will gladly go this path. Witch does not mean that I will stop playing with old HW! That is fun!

They are very nice and you do not have to worry about ageing hardware.

Show me these "nice" ones first. Also I have noproblemo with my old HW. It is just the webpages with too many scripts tht bog my P4 down. That is my only problem. I could also live with the 4G limit of 32bit OS. Currently I using P4 with 2G ram and I'm fine. On XP, of course. God forbid Vista or Win7 on 2G. That is not so good... with is why my gming machine got 8G.


suraswami -

check my FS thread, may be you can try the PNY XLR8, they are awesome clockers. The Ballistix run at 4-4-4-12 at DDR2 6400.

Thanks. That is good recommendation, but I cannot find any info about these modules chips. Also the design is good for AMD (where they run at 1T), but not for Intel: "The inability to run it at ddr800 speeds with a 1T command rate on our X38 board was a disappointment..."
http://www.legitreviews.com/pny-xlr8-d22gx93xlp-5-ddr2-1173-memory-review_621/5#RJxRGAkIADd3QWCt.99
So it is up in the quess, how they go on VIA PT880 Pro chipset. 1T? 2T? Could be a -HUGE- difference! Also I'm not seeking high overclock, I seeking tightest timings (3-2-2) on 300-320MHz.
As for Crucial Ballistix - the ones you selling, w/o the clips, are the latest version of them and rated as worsest ever. Dying frequently. So no interest there as well. Sorry, I'm very picky and I know what I want. And I have good idea what chips (early Micron D9Gxx "Fatbody") could fullfill my needs.


de.das.dude -

i have myself run 4-4-4 on ocz platinums

But 4-4-4 is like... nothing. Any better ram could do it in the DDR2 segment. Getting 3-3-3 ram is the question, or even better a 3-2-2-8 1T ram. That is the aim there. W/O such ram, there will be a little point of reworking this mainboard for speeeeeeed

any sticks that can be found now would be old and I am really skeptical if they will be able to do anything other than their stock timings now

Good point. Hopefully I manage to find some, that will be in good condition. After all, I want like miracle from them

 

[suraswami]

suraswami -

Thanks. That is good recommendation, but I cannot find any info about these modules chips. Also the design is good for AMD (where they run at 1T), but not for Intel: "The inability to run it at ddr800 speeds with a 1T command rate on our X38 board was a disappointment..."
http://www.legitreviews.com/pny-xlr8-d22gx93xlp-5-ddr2-1173-memory-review_621/5#RJxRGAkIADd3QWCt.99
So it is up in the quess, how they go on VIA PT880 Pro chipset. 1T? 2T? Could be a -HUGE- difference! Also I'm not seeking high overclock, I seeking tightest timings (3-2-2) on 300-320MHz.
As for Crucial Ballistix - the ones you selling, w/o the clips, are the latest version of them and rated as worsest ever. Dying frequently. So no interest there as well. Sorry, I'm very picky and I know what I want. And I have good idea what chips (early Micron D9Gxx "Fatbody") could fullfill my needs.

NP.

I have been running that Crucial Ballistix for past 4+ yrs 24/7 on my home server on an Asus AM2+ board with X2 240. Never missed a beat and its been very reliable.

 

[trodas]

I would be inclined to believe that the dramaticall increase of fails of these last "modern" Balistix is related to the lack of the clips. So if you don't meddle with them, just put them into server and there they go - forever. But if you use them as spare / testing rams and frequently push / pull on these heatspreaders, the they probably fail. From oldest to newest, Crucial Balistix rams:

So from experienced overclockers I get the info, that my best bet is Crucial Ballistix 1000 16FD5 kit, as even the 667/800MHz ones are "tad" worser for what I want them. And that come from a guy, who is collector and run these rams like this:

Just to give you some perspective, 400 MHz 3-3-3-9 is my standard test for Micron D9 kits (on P45, Auto subtimings). The Vdimm needed for this ranges from 2.13V (Corsair 6400C3) to 2.22V (Crucial 10th Anniversary). The best and the worst kits by others range from 2.04V (1066 Ballistix 16FD5) to 2.38V (Micron value 4200). You can see that lots of kits should at least do 350 MHz 3-3-3-9.

So to get what I want, I must wait for these good bins of chips appear on the market.

 

[dorsetknob]

I cannot argue against that, but since no-other board support Core 2 Duo + AGP + DDR2, then I'm stuck with it. I have to manage the best out of it.

Apart from other boards in the Asrock range
such as
Asrock Duel series 4Coreduel-Sata2

Crucial ct25664aa800.16fj3 2x 2gig are these any good (1.8v)

 

[trodas]

Good point. I should mention that that was the only board, capable of Core 2 Duo & AGP I could buy in my country Besides the even more creapier ASRock 775i65G R3.0, that it is.

Crucial ct25664aa800.16fj3 2x2gig are likely to be reasonable rams, but 2G rams clocks slower that 1G ones and also the type is not mentioned there:
http://ramlist.i4memory.com/ddr2/
So it is not guaranted that they have Micron D9Gxx chips. In short - good for most, not worth a broken enemy penny for me, as I need to have very tight timings.

FA are fatbody, FD are D9Gxx and FE are the more recent 1Gigabit chips

400 MHz 3-3-3-9 is my standard test for Micron D9 kits (on P45, Auto subtimings).

The latest chipset can't run tRCD and tRC 2 though.

...this is where the problem hit the fan. TRCD and TRC 2 are the "Holly Gral" of magic timings for DDR2 rams for me, I want that. That disqualify all the new chips, because they are obviously "overoptimized" for price, not performance.

What is need is Crucial Ballistix 1066 16FD5. With old heatspreaded, of course. These have highest chance of running at 3-2-2-8 clocks p to say 320, 340MHz. W/O need for excessive voltage, that it is.

 

[Aquinus]

With Win7 I feel like I'm being locked up in my own computer and I did not like that.

If you care about that so much, why aren't you just using Linux? Windows XP and Windows 7 both use the NT kernel and have more in common than they do not. I used to have a thick NT 4 book where most of the stuff in it held true for both XP and 7.

One way or another, you'll save yourself a lot of headache by simply upgrading and switching to a newer version of Windows. In all seriousness, you'll get used to it just like everyone else has.

Well possibly. Most of the older FM2 boards had Xp drivers and there is probably drivers for these newer boards for XP from the manufacturers site. They are very nice and you do not have to worry about ageing hardware

Honestly, I think that should be beside the point. I would upgrade my OS if there was a vastly better option.

Side note: I owned a P4 650 10 years ago. Upgrading might be in the cards.

 

[brandonwh64]

brandonwh64 -



I hope you did not take it as insult, but I cannot go to buy hardware based on "possibly" and "most." And most reviews did not concentrate on this, so I'm stuck. Unless I know for SURE and there ARE the drivers for download specifically for XP, then I will _NOT_ go with that path.
Also you mention FM2. Nothing against AMD, but IIRC their CCC required .NETframework, witch I will never use again (it is a good backdoor for hacks). So I would prefer Intel. Also because Intel have higher IPC effectivity and much, much stronger single thread performance, witch matter most. But whatever - if you can suggest a good APU, witch will work with WinXP SP3 w/o .NETframework, then I will gladly go this path. Witch does not mean that I will stop playing with old HW! That is fun!

Why the need for XP? You speak of backdoor hacks and then turn around and continue using a OS that is far past its due date in terms of security. You can always run XP in a emulator for certain software.