System shutdown from short when connecting USB type C cable?

[Princess Garnet]

Sorry for the broad title, but it's hard to be specific with limited space.

So this one isn't a problem, per se, as I think I've figured it out, so instead it's just a request for further information.

Twice I've had my system instantly (and I mean instantly; no delay) shut down when going to insert a USB C cable specifically. I think (?) an instant shutdown like that is usually a sign of a short, and namely, this happens when I seem to miss plugging it in properly, so that seems to match up with it being a possible short in my mind. So the motherboard is seemingly detecting this and some safety mechanism is doing its job. That's good.

So I sort of have two questions on this.

1. Has anyone else observed this with USB type C specifically? I've never had an instant restart/short tripped when trying to, and failing to, connect a USB type A cable. I've only heard praise for these being easier to insert because they work both orientations, so I guess I find it a bit comical that I'm experiencing this. The only USB C port I have is at the rear of my PC so it makes it harder to plug in exactly without pulling out my PC and looking, which I now do.

2. Following along the above, does anyone have any idea why a short might occur when trying to plug one of these in? The apparent answer in my mind is "something is bridged that shouldn't be, like maybe I'm hitting between the connector and the motherboard's I/O shield or something, but I haven't heard a whole lot about others experiencing this with USB type C, so I'm wondering if this is something I should investigate further. Or if being more careful plugging it in and out is all I need to do.

In the meantime, I've been doing that. I've even considered using the USB type A cable instead, since I've never had this occur with those (it's for an external hard drive inside an enclosure, in case anyone is wondering).

 

[Caring1]

It might be the internal cable that runs to the motherboard, or a short within the front I/O panel itself, even a bad ground on that panel.
Check the cable is connected the correct way to the motherboard first as they can be forced in the wrong way and cause a short.

 

[Princess Garnet]

The USB type C port is a rear one on the motherboard itself (it's an MSI MAG X570S Tomahawk Max), although I do have a front panel with USB connectors connected (case is a Fractal Arc Midi). It doesn't have USB type C though.

Would what you say still apply? Could the USB 3 connector to the front panel have anything to do with this? It's just strange that I've never had a sudden shutdown with any imperfect USB type A connection attempts, but with USB type C it has. Thankfully I only connect it seldomly to backup data to that external drive, and I connect it carefully. Was wondering if there is something more I should do/investigate or if these were known to be more sensitive to it and I should just continue being careful.

 

[ty_ger]

USB Type C is capable of a lot more current flow, so it makes sense that a short with USB C would trigger protections that a short with USB A wouldn't.
I'm surprised that they wouldn't just have a polyfuse on that connection though.

 

[Bill_Bright]

So the motherboard is seemingly detecting this and some safety mechanism is doing its job. That's good.

I say the short is being detected by the PSU through the motherboard. And it is the PSU that is instantly terminating output. And for sure, that is a good thing.

USB connectors are specifically designed to align themselves in the ports before any electrical contact is made. I am NOT saying a misaligned approach cannot create a shorting scenario, I am just saying it is not easy and therefore not very common.

Happening more than once is definitely a concern.

What you have not told us (unless I miss it) is, (1) did this happened both times with the same USB cable? Same USB port? Have you tried other USB devices and cables in that same port? Have you tried that cable in a different port, or even different computer?

The problem with essentially all cables these days is quality assurance before leaving the factory is almost none existent. They may test one or two out of an entire production run of 10s of 1000s. But it is highly unlikely that cable was tested. Plus, these cables are not very robust. They cannot take much abuse.

If me, not sure I would even take any chances and would just toss that cable in the trash.

 

[Caring1]

The front I/O shouldn't have anything to do with the rear connectors.
If it has a separate i/o shield at the rear check none of the fingers are in a place they can short out, or if there is an extra standoff under the motherboard that affects that circuit.

 

[Bill_Bright]

or if there is an extra standoff under the motherboard that affects that circuit.

This is possible especially since symptoms can be intermittent. But @Princess Garnet - is this a recent computer build or motherboard upgrade? Or has the computer been working fine for sometime and this is a new problem?

 

[bonehead123]

Well, I've been using USB-C cables & connectors since they were first introduced, and have NEVER had any issues with them whatsoever, shorts or otherwise...

However, something is causing the shutdowns, so more investigating is required for sure...and no, the front panel connections should not be related to this issue, since they are connected to a seperate circuit with their own cabling....

And as Bill said above, the PSU is doing it's job and most likely saving your mobo & other parts from being fried, so that's a good thing....

As he also said, the QA/QC on cables (like many other things) is practically non-existent nowadays, so I would definitely try using some different (new) cables & devices and see what happens...that way, you can eliminate 1 possible cause, and move on to the next ones...ie bad connector or wiring on the mobo ect... I highly recommend uGreen or Anker cables, as I have some that are several years old & still working as well as they did when I first got them...

 

[Redwoodz]

Probably tried to insert it backwards, which is why I don't really like it, it is symetrical. Engineers....

 

[Bill_Bright]

Probably tried to insert it backwards, which is why I don't really like it, it is symetrical. Engineers....

Huh? I hope that is meant be a joke - though the use of an emoticon would have been nice if it was.

USB-C is indeed symmetrical that's what makes it superior to all other USB connector types. There is no forwards or backwards or only one way. It goes either way.

 

[LabRat 891]

I've had both a hard-shut off and (terrifyingly) 'colorful screen scrambles' from ESDing/shorting a USB port.
Since, this seems to be easily repeatable (and I'm doubting you have like an ionizer in the room), I'm doubting it's ESD.

2 things immediately come to mind (assuming no damage/mal-configuration on the mobo/PC side)
1. Differences in ground potential between devices. Prior to USB-C's ratification, you never/rarely connected 2 'host' devices together. If whatever you're plugging in is 'floating' at a +/- voltage relative to your PC, it could crash it.
2. USB-PD device, separately powered by battery or ACmains, 'stuck' in non-5V mode (9V/12V/20V/48V). Putting +9V, +12V, etc into a mobo USB port should act like a dead short, and the system should power off to protect itself.

Something as simple as a speck of metallic dust in a port/stuck in a header could be the cause too.
My favorite similar experience: I once managed to get the 'earthing tab' of the I/O shield *into* a port, and would short-out when something was plugged in.

Do other USB-C devices and cable combinations cause the crash?

 

[Princess Garnet]

What you have not told us (unless I miss it) is, (1) did this happened both times with the same USB cable? Same USB port? Have you tried other USB devices and cables in that same port? Have you tried that cable in a different port, or even different computer?

Yes, both times were with the same cable and on the same port.

I only have a single USB type C port, and it's only that one cable (and device) I have, so no amount of other testing via other ports, devices, or PCs is possible. Trying a different cable would be the simplest route, and as far as that goes...

The device I'm using it with (a hard drive enclosure) has USB type C on its end too, but it came with two cables; one is USB type C on both ends (the one I've been using) and the other is a USB type C to USB type A cable, and I've considered just using that one if I need to, as I've never had this issue occur with any other port.

I simply defaulted to the "newer" one but now that I've had this happen twice, I've considered that.

This is possible especially since symptoms can be intermittent. But @Princess Garnet - is this a recent computer build or motherboard upgrade? Or has the computer been working fine for sometime and this is a new problem?

No changes to the system recently.

The standoffs are definitely only in the necessary 9 spots and all are screwed in.

Other than the separate issue I was going through with the video card not all that long back, I've had zero issues or changes with the PC.

Come to think of it though, on another forum, I recently remarked that I've had very few BSODs in the last many years, and on the topic of that, the only one I ever had under Windows 10 was when removing (not connecting) a USB device (USB type A flash drive) from the front panel of my PC. That one didn't result in a shutdown but instead a BSOD, so... that may be a completely unrelated thing entirely. My motherboard, CPU, and PSU were all different at that time anyway and it only happened once, so I figured it was a one off.

I'd say I'm pretty careful about connecting and disconnecting these things but of course I'm not perfect with it by any means. But I never had this happen so "frequently" as it is with USB type C so this thread was meant to be a "is this expected and I should try and be more careful, or is there maybe something I should investigate" thing.

Sounds like I might want to consider using the USB type A cable. It's still USB 3.2 and I imagine I'm going to be limited by the speed of the HDD itself before the cable.

2 things immediately come to mind (assuming no damage/mal-configuration on the mobo/PC side)
1. Differences in ground potential between devices. Prior to USB-C's ratification, you never/rarely connected 2 'host' devices together. If whatever you're plugging in is 'floating' at a +/- voltage relative to your PC, it could crash it.
2. USB-PD device, separately powered by battery or ACmains, 'stuck' in non-5V mode (9V/12V/20V/48V). Putting +9V, +12V, etc into a mobo USB port should act like a dead short, and the system should power off to protect itself.

Something as simple as a speck of metallic dust in a port/stuck in a header could be the cause too.
My favorite similar experience: I once managed to get the 'earthing tab' of the I/O shield *into* a port, and would short-out when something was plugged in.

Do other USB-C devices and cable combinations cause the crash?

I'm not sure what either of those two things mean, per se, or what I should try and do about them (if anything)?

In case it's necessary, here's my entire process. I can not verify I did it this same way both times, though. Namely, 3 might happen before 2 instead of after it sometimes.

1. I plug the power cable into the drive enclosure (not yet connected to the wall).

2. I plug the USB C cable into the PC first (if the shutdown happens, it is here, and it's usually when "missing" the port exactly, so it seems I need to be exact when connecting it), and then the other end into the drive enclosure (never had a shutdown from this part yet).

3. I plug the power cable of the drive enclosure into the wall.

4. I power on the drive enclosure.

Disconnecting it is basically the reverse, and I've yet to have a shutdown from that process.

Since this basically happens just plugging the cable, which has nothing connected to the other end yet, into the PC, I guess that indicates the rest of the process is irrelevant anyway. Hm, does that suggest a bad cable or a PC side issue?

 

[Bill_Bright]

I would not waste more time trying to guess what may or may not be wrong without first trying different cables and different devices in that port. If me, I might also try that suspect cable/device on another computer (since no other USB-C port on that computer is available).

The standoffs are definitely only in the necessary 9 spots and all are screwed in.

I think all is okay here but to be clear to ensure understanding allow around, I note cases are designed to support 1000s of motherboards of different sizes. For example, most standard mid-tower cases support standard ATX motherboards as well as smaller µATX and often larger EATX motherboards too. Even among standard size ATX boards, different manufacturers may, or may not put a motherboard mounting hole in a designated location. Until just recently, ATX standard did not dictate where mounting holes "must" go, only where they "may" go.

Therefore cases tend to have more locations for standoffs than many motherboards have mounting screw locations.

A common mistake by the less experienced and distracted pros alike is to insert one or more extra standoff in the case under the motherboard. Any extra standoff creates the potential for an electrical “short” in one or more circuits. The results range from "nothing" (everything works perfectly) to a wide assortment of odd problems, to "nothing" (as in nothing works at all ). To add to the confusion, these issues may be intermittent, depending on heat, expansion/contraction of materials, as well as continuity/resistance through the contact point. So, unless certain you only have a standoff where there is a corresponding motherboard mounting hole, you may need to pull the board to verify that.

Note the latest version of the ATX Form Factor standard hopes to eliminate these issues by dictating where case standoffs and motherboard mounting holes will go, not just where they may go. This will ensure no extra standoff could end up under a motherboard. However, this only applies to newly designed and marketed cases and motherboards. Not all existing motherboards or cases currently on the market comply with those latest standards - yet. So, again, unless certain, you still should verify you only inserted a standoff where there is a corresponding motherboard mounting hole.

 

[Princess Garnet]

I changed the motherboard when the previous one was out for RMA (year and a half ago?), and I had it out and back in when I was diagnosing the previous graphics card issue. I am 100% positive the only standoffs are the nine that are holding the motherboard in. I'm very careful about that one; I always check how many spots a motherboard has and ensure only those standoffs are in place before putting it in.

I would not waste more time trying to guess what may or may not be wrong without first trying different cables and different devices in that port. If me, I might also try that suspect cable/device on another computer (since no other USB-C port on that computer is available).

I don't have any other devices that use USB C and I don't have a need for another device or else I'd already naturally have whatever it is.

I have no other computers with USB C either.

I've got one PC with one port, one cable, and one device.

The cable would be easiest to change, but if I'm going to change that, I may as well just change it to the other included USB C to USB A cable I already have. Which is probably what I'll do.

 

[ty_ger]

The USB A cable may cause significantly slower external hard drive transfer speeds, depending on how fast the external hard drive is in the first place.

 

[Princess Garnet]

That was partly why I chose to the USB C cable to begin with, although I figured with the connector being USB C on the devices end anyway and only differing on the other end, it's going to be USB 3.2 capable, which means if I connect it to a port capable of those speeds, it should be the same anyway? USB really got confusing with version 3.x especially so maybe I'm wrong about that part.

On top of that, I imagine the limitation is easily the drive itself in any case (it's a Western Digital Blue 8 TB which is a 5,640 RPM HDD), not the cable. I get similar speeds to the one I have internally (~160 MB/s maximum, but often slower depending on what's being moved), minus the caching capability Windows does to internal drives. Maybe if I'm connecting it to a USB 2 port it will be potentially slower, but I'm not going to be doing that, so I figured the USB A cable wouldn't hurt here?

 

[Bill_Bright]

I don't have any other devices that use USB C and I don't have a need for another device or else I'd already naturally have whatever it is.

I hear you. Maybe you could borrow a cable temporarily from a friend or family member?

 

[TheLostSwede]

The USB A cable may cause significantly slower external hard drive transfer speeds, depending on how fast the external hard drive is in the first place.

Uhm, no. A USB Type-A to Type-C cable can support transfer speeds of up to 10 Gbps, although most USB 3.0 cables are obviously 5 Gbps. This also depends on the port used on the system, but unless it's a 20 Gbps USB-C device, it won't make any difference if one end is Type-A or Type-C.

 

[Princess Garnet]

I hear you. Maybe you could borrow a cable temporarily from a friend or family member?

I just realized that the charging cable for my phone is USB C on both ends (I didn't even realize the other end disconnected). Would that be something I could use?

Is a bad cable something that could cause a short, and only when connecting it, sometimes, but otherwise work fine?

I guess what I'm asking is, I'm wondering if it's worth even trying with the other cable (especially since the original one didn't always cause this so I'd hate to try and intentionally connect it wrong and force it, you know), or if I should just change to using the USB A cable.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Is a bad cable something that could cause a short, and only when connecting it, sometimes, but otherwise work fine?

Hard to answer. There could be a loose wire or some other defect inside the connector that is not visible and only causes problems when the cable is positioned in just such a way, or when you are not holding your tongue just right.

 

[ty_ger]

Uhm, no. A USB Type-A to Type-C cable can support transfer speeds of up to 10 Gbps, although most USB 3.0 cables are obviously 5 Gbps. This also depends on the port used on the system, but unless it's a 20 Gbps USB-C device, it won't make any difference if one end is Type-A or Type-C.

Type C in the same Gen is 20 Gbps vs Type A at 10 Gbps or 5 Gbps. Divide that by 8. And that is best case.

Like I said, it probably will make no difference, but on the other hand it could. I don't know anything about their hard drive, its speed, its power requirements, or how it is designed to perform on one connection vs the other.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Type C in the same Gen is 20 Gbps vs Type A at 10 Gbps or 5 Gbps. Divide that by 8. And that is best case.

Like I said, it probably will make no difference, but on the other hand it could. I don't know anything about their hard drive, its speed, its power requirements, or how it is designed to perform on one connection vs the other.

Considering most computers don't even have a 20 Gbps capable port... This includes the OP's computer.

I just realized that the charging cable for my phone is USB C on both ends (I didn't even realize the other end disconnected). Would that be something I could use?

Phone charging cables are only USB 2.0, but yes, you can try it, as they're otherwise fully USB-C compliant.

 

[Princess Garnet]

Oh, I thought USB C might always be USB 3.2 capable by default considering how new it is, but if not, I guess my best course of action is just use the USB A cable for the external drive and be done with it.

 

[Kayoris]

I'm pretty late to this but, I've had a similar case that happened to my system before last year. My USB 3.0 Header started to cause the same problem, and not allowing the system to start. Since then, I disconnected the header and it's been starting up like normal. Do keep in mind that the header was already plugged in ever since I built the system which was back in 2020 and it only started occurring in 2023 after one of my shut downs.

Though I have not experienced plugging the header back into the motherboard while the system is running but I'm assuming I might end up getting the same outcome which is basically hard shutting down the whole system.