To frack, or not to frack?.....that is the question (with POLL)

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

Fracking in UK given go-ahead as Lancashire council rejection overturned.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-37567866


I am in two minds over this major environmental issue and would be interested to hear the thoughts and opinions of other members, especially those with 1st hand knowledge and experience of living near a frack site.

Fracking is the process of drilling down into the earth before a high-pressure water mixture is directed at the rock to release the gas inside. Water, sand and chemicals are injected into the rock at high pressure which allows the gas to flow out to the head of the well.

Hydraulic fracturing by country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing_by_country

 

[dorsetknob]

voted undecided
while we need the Energy we have to be concerned for the Environment and Rescorce management
I'm Pro Nuclear for Power Generation and feel this is the way we should develop power generation
Oil and Gas Reserve's ( now Limited ) should be used by the Very Important Chemical Industry
That's as far as i am concerned is a more important use now for these Finite Resorces
Nuclear Power can replace Coal/Gas/ Oil Generated power but cannot Replace Petro chemical rescorces

 

[P4-630]

They are doing this in the North of my country as well,
people there aren't happy there since it causes vibrations/small earthquakes in that area and people's homes are getting damaged.

 

[EarthDog]

Undecided. It hasn't been proven yet, that I know of, this is causing mini quakes ( though let's be real, it's not a leap).

 

[P4-630]

Consequences earthquakes Groningen (The Netherlands) similar to heavy earthquakes Southern Europe.

"(Earth Matters | Herman Damveld) The effects of severe earthquakes in Groningen are of the same order as the effects of major natural quakes in Italy, Greece and Turkey.That seems at first sight strange because we earthquakes in those countries have images of destroyed villages. It also tells us that earthquakes are much more powerful than those in Groningen. That is correct, but the effects are similar. The information provided by the Government is incomplete and thus creates a false perception. That is one of the topics discussed in the report basic insight natural gas and earthquakes.

Richter scale is not decisive, but the ground acceleration
The strength of earthquakes is usually represented by the Richter scale. This scale has been passes by means of a number, the strength of the earthquake. This is the strength and not the consequences of the earthquake. In southern Europe come to earthquakes with a magnitude of 6 on the Richter scale. In Groningen keep most of the earthquakes under 3 on this scale. However, an earthquake of 6 is a thousand times stronger than a tremor of 3. Therefore it seems that it is not too bad in Groningen.

Earthquakes below Groningen usually occur at about three kilometers deep, because the gas field lies. Elsewhere in the world occur earthquakes much deeper, in the order of 10 to 20 kilometers.Although earthquakes are often stronger on the Richter scale, but the earthquake energy has to travel a much greater distance from the earth's surface. This difference explains in depth, together with the soil, why the quakes in Groningen which are often less powerful than elsewhere, still be felt significantly and cause damage. The damage is not so much determined by the force of the quake, but more by the shaking of the ground during an earthquake.Slack Groninger soil ensures the strengthening of the vibrations from deep underground. This is called the ground acceleration. This is the most important measure of the damage and not the Richter scale, also find the NAM. In information about the earthquakes in Groningen however KNMI indicates the ground acceleration not just the effect on the Richter scale. Therefore this information is incomplete and there is a false perception.

Damaging earthquakes
There are data on the ground acceleration during earthquakes abroad. In a ground acceleration that we can expect in Groningen, were abroad a few dozen to 90,000 deaths. That was not so much by the earthquake itself, but because people were buried under collapsing houses and buildings. According to the Safety of Groningen, the collaboration of emergency services, are at the expected ground acceleration "of the effects of the earthquakes in Groningen of the same order as the effects of major natural quakes in Italy, Greece and Turkey."

The gas produced in Groningen from 1990 until early March 2015 as many as 862 earthquakes. From mid-2012 until the beginning of March. There are 35,500 damage reports were received, of which 29,000 have been accepted by the NAM. Usually, this includes cracks in walls. However, greater damage is possible.State Supervision of Mines has calculated in 2013 may fall dead in a severe earthquake in 1200 and 118 houses to collapse.

Money comes first
We know no Dutch industry that annually may cause with the consent of the Government damage to thousands of homes. At the same time the government gets daily 25 million to natural gas by the gas. From 1963 to last year's natural gas revenues for the government were 277 billion. The benefit was for the Netherlands, the downside for Groningen.

Bubble 15 years empty
If we continue the extraction of natural gas on the old base, the Dutch gas over 15 years. Now there is only a quarter of the gas supply which initially was in the ground. Furthermore, more and more pumps are required to extract the gas from the soil. These pumps operate on electricity. They use gas production annually as much electricity as 200,000 households. The vulnerability of the Dutch gas supply increases."

https://translate.google.com/transl...groningen-zuid-europa.html&edit-text=&act=url

 

[EarthDog]

Sorry.. anything proven or are we relying on correlation for causation?

 

[P4-630]

Also:

Wastewater shale practically insoluble problem
The extraction of shale gas creates huge amounts of chemically contaminated wastewater, full of fracking chemicals, heavy metals and even radioactive elements like barium and strontium. This poses a major threat to drinking water reservoirs, and for example agriculture.

Unfortunately, there actually is no solution to the problem. This is also because of the enormous scale of toxic waste is produced in fracking for shale gas. It involves hundreds of millions of gallons per individual frack, while there are hundreds per schaliegasvoorkomen bores gefrackt each multiple times "should" be.

In the US wastewater treatment plants already announced the schaliegasindustrie not waiting for this waste, which they received in just over discharges in Pennsylvania until 2011.

Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh have then examined samples from three different treatment plants, both from the time this shale wastewater received and thereafter. The Americans found that the official 'purified water' containing the ban on sewage discharges significantly higher concentrations of various toxins, and conclude that normal treatment plants not be able to clean the wastewater from shale gas chemical.

A stream tankers
In the US, as in the Netherlands, however, there is no infrastructure to accommodate middle of rural area contaminated water. It requires either transporting large quantities of tanks, and their diesel emissions, risk of accidents - or untreated discharges ...

Or injections of waste water into the soil
Instead of purification, a portion of the waste water in the US simply injected back into the soil. However, these so-called waste water disposal wells create a sizable printing and (toxic) groundwater flow trigger, which also able to ensure that existing fractures move in the soil. In the US, earthquakes up to strength 5.7 on the Richter Scale perceived by the back pumping of wastewater after the extraction of shale gas.

https://milieudefensie.nl/schaliegas/fracking/afvalwater-schaliegas-praktisch-onoplosbaar-probleem

 

[P4-630]

Sorry.. anything proven or are we relying on correlation for causation?

It's in the news all the time in my country, about damaged homes and buildings.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Undecided. The energy need is real. The question is whether it is needed in my (or your) backyard. Where I live, they wanted to set up fracking drilling within miles of home. It took over a year, but our residents, in a state that depends in large measure on oil revenue, successfully fought it.

The concern was we get our drinking water, which is about as pure as you can get, from the water table. There was no clear answer on how cracking the rock below the water table would not cause oil and gas to seep into the water table, or even worse, cause it to seep away.

 

[Mr McC]

Fracking has contaminated the groundwater in Pavillion, Wyoming. We should actively be moving away from the use of fossil fuels, you have to be braindead to think otherwise, without even mentioning the undemocratic nature of the decision in Lancashire, where central government has basically dismissed the will of local people. Welcome to Brexit Britain, just don't get thirsty as you pass through...

 

[EarthDog]

It's in the news all the time in my country, about damaged homes and buildings.

What does that prove?

Do you understand what correlation is not causation means? I ask the question not to be a jerk, but because of the continuing correlative support you are giving.

As I said, it's not a leap, but I personally haven't read any official studies proving it. Perhaps they are out there, but I haven't come across them.

 

[P4-630]

In case you're able to read Dutch:

Here's a nice PDF:
https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=...bFfgJBfjsv5Lvai5w&sig2=pQGomZ9VLlI59_QDhnbWiw

https://www.google.nl/search?q=stud...ome..69i57.16769j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[EarthDog]

I don't read Dutch. How about some cliff's notes...

CAPS - Do you read Dutch, get that translated, or just thanking blindly???

 

[P4-630]

@Vayra86 might be able to tell you more about it when he's back online.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

I thank contributions which add to the debate

Im in Burger king at the moment and will read it when im back on my pc.

 

[dorsetknob]

I don't read Dutch. How about some cliff's notes...

CAPS - Do you read Dutch, get that translated, or just thanking blindly???

google translate does a reasonable job
as does some FF plug in's

 

[EarthDog]

I dont FF.

I also don't like a list of articles to read. If there is scientific evidence, post "A" link. Make it easy on the reader to understand your point. 2 correlative posts does not make me want to follow a trail of links.

This happens in my home state, so I have read plenty about it from both sides... as I said, just never saw anything scientifically conclusive in my readings.

 

[Mr McC]

I dont FF.

I also don't like a list of articles to read. If there is scientific evidence, post "A" link. Make it easy on the reader to understand your point. 2 correlative posts does not make me want to follow a trail of links.

This happens in my home state, so I have read plenty about it from both sides... as I said, just never saw anything scientifically conclusive in my readings.

https://jacksonlab.stanford.edu/pub...nd-domestic-wells-production-well-stimulation

"Our investigation highlights several important issues related to impact to groundwater from unconventional oil and gas extraction. We have, for the first time, demonstrated impact to USDWs as a result of hydraulic fracturing. Given the high frequency of injection of stimulation fluids into USDWs to support CBM extraction and unknown frequency in tight gas formations, it is unlikely that impact to USDWs is limited to the Pavillion Field requiring investigation elsewhere. Second, well stimulation in the Pavillion Field occurred many times less than 500 m from ground surface and, in some cases, at or very close to depths of deepest domestic groundwater use in the area. Shallow hydraulic fracturing poses greater risks than deeper fracturing does, especially in the presence of well integrity issues as documented here in the Pavillion Field. Additional investigations elsewhere are needed. Finally, while disposal of production fluids in unlined pits is a legacy issue in Wyoming, this practice has nevertheless caused enduring groundwater contamination in the Pavillion Field. Impact to groundwater from unlined pits is unlikely to have occurred only in the Pavillion Field, necessitating investigation elsewhere. "

 

[Devon68]

I watched the simpsons I voted NO.

 

[Recon-UK]

 

[EarthDog]

https://jacksonlab.stanford.edu/pub...nd-domestic-wells-production-well-stimulation

"Our investigation highlights several important issues related to impact to groundwater from unconventional oil and gas extraction. We have, for the first time, demonstrated impact to USDWs as a result of hydraulic fracturing. Given the high frequency of injection of stimulation fluids into USDWs to support CBM extraction and unknown frequency in tight gas formations, it is unlikely that impact to USDWs is limited to the Pavillion Field requiring investigation elsewhere. Second, well stimulation in the Pavillion Field occurred many times less than 500 m from ground surface and, in some cases, at or very close to depths of deepest domestic groundwater use in the area. Shallow hydraulic fracturing poses greater risks than deeper fracturing does, especially in the presence of well integrity issues as documented here in the Pavillion Field. Additional investigations elsewhere are needed. Finally, while disposal of production fluids in unlined pits is a legacy issue in Wyoming, this practice has nevertheless caused enduring groundwater contamination in the Pavillion Field. Impact to groundwater from unlined pits is unlikely to have occurred only in the Pavillion Field, necessitating investigation elsewhere. "

Good info!

The talking point however was in regards to it causing tremors/earthauakes (post 5/6).

 

[m1dg3t]

Q:When you can put a match to your water tap and get flame thrower?

A:What is fracking?

If you can/haven't, watch 'Gasland' 1& 2

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

How fracking caused earthquakes in the UK

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21120-how-fracking-caused-earthquakes-in-the-uk/

 

[broken pixel]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fracking-can-contaminate-drinking-water/

The EPA gets paid off among others to falsify data or piddle paddle studies.
A few years ago Yale & Duke Universities did a study by collecting an entire 64 groundwater samples from various places to determine hydraulic fracturing is safe. Yay! Thanks for that in depth study & the mass amount of samples collected. $$$$$$

 

[R-T-B]

If we don't frack it, the Aliens will.

PS: If I have to be serious, I'm going to say I have no idea. It's honest.