TSMC Says it Still Won't Build a Fab in the US

[techguymaxc]

Since the source article is behind a paywall, I don't know if the remarks in this TPU article are a quote from the head of TSMC, the opinion of the Digitimes author, or the opinion of the author of this piece.

If the government "demands" something, you don't have the option to say no. And guess what: the U.S. federal government can't "demand" a foreign company build a fab in the U.S.

Criticial thinking is sadly on the decline these days.

 

[Deleted member 50521]

Ah GPU comments section, a good chunk of racist ignorant f*uckers. Something never change

 

[Assimilator]

Since the source article is behind a paywall, I don't know if the remarks in this TPU article are a quote from the head of TSMC, the opinion of the Digitimes author, or the opinion of the author of this piece.

If the government "demands" something, you don't have the option to say no. And guess what: the U.S. federal government can't "demand" a foreign company build a fab in the U.S.

Criticial thinking is sadly on the decline these days.

As is knowledge of the dictionary definition of words.

 

[ARF]

[Citation Needed]

Most of what I've seen pegs it around TSMC 7nm at best (optimistic)... and they still can't make enough to feed Intel, let alone others.

Citation is my own observations and impressions on everything that has passed through my reading.
There are Wiki articles which confirm, and they don't even include Intel's 10nm+.

10 nm process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

7 nm process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[techguymaxc]

Ah GPU comments section, a good chunk of racist ignorant f*uckers. Something never change

Take that crap to reddit.

 

[csendesmark]

Maybe he does not
Or maybe the USA won't station troops there for free and that maybe will change the tmsc's opinion on things
South Korea is happy to pay up, that's for sure

Will see how that works on Taiwan, ...but I am sure some of the locals wouldn't be happy...

 

[Vayra86]

Citation is my own observations and impressions on everything that has passed through my reading.
There are Wiki articles which confirm, and they don't even include Intel's 10nm+.

View attachment 155039

10 nm process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 155040

7 nm process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're basing off incomplete AND pretty old information. Your source has data from 2018 when Intel was not or barely in volume production for 10nm and they have been tweaking it since. It does not contain the knowledge and use of EUV patterning - but what it DOES show, is that Samsung, who has an early EUV implementation can already get to the min. pitch value of Intel (36nm) and has a substantially lower fin pitch at 27nm. And note, that was 2 years ago.

Put two and two together and there is no way we can conclude that Intel's 10nm is now somehow better than 7nm TSMC, in fact, it is likely NOT to be. There are also real world products on 10nm and 7nm that are remarkably similar and we see power and clocking advantages for the 7nm versions. Architecture of course plays a role, but fact is, net perf/watt is strong on 7nm, and does not manage to scale well at 10nm. Otherwise Intel would never have respinned their 14nm for the umpteenth time. There is no tangible high performance CPU on 10nm available. The best they have is low power optimized.

 

[95Viper]

Calm down people... discuss, do not call members names or insult each other.
Stay on topic and play nice.
Report problems... don't reply and become one.

Thank you,
Have a glorious day.

 

[BArms]

Agent Orange has proven time and time again that no cows are sacred whenever he doesn't get his way. Taiwan is as likely to be thrown under the bus for no good reason, as any other nation that's nominally a US ally.

Orange Man Bad, got it.

 

[ARF]

You're basing off incomplete AND pretty old information. Your source has data from 2018 when Intel was not or barely in volume production for 10nm and they have been tweaking it since. It does not contain the knowledge and use of EUV patterning - but what it DOES show, is that Samsung, who has an early EUV implementation can already get to the min. pitch value of Intel (36nm) and has a substantially lower fin pitch at 27nm. And note, that was 2 years ago.

Put two and two together and there is no way we can conclude that Intel's 10nm is now somehow better than 7nm TSMC, in fact, it is likely NOT to be. There are also real world products on 10nm and 7nm that are remarkably similar and we see power and clocking advantages for the 7nm versions. Architecture of course plays a role, but fact is, net perf/watt is strong on 7nm, and does not manage to scale well at 10nm. Otherwise Intel would never have respinned their 14nm for the umpteenth time. There is no tangible high performance CPU on 10nm available. The best they have is low power optimized.

AMD's chiplet has ~52.7 MTr/sq.mm, while Navi 10 has ~41 MTr/sq.mm.

Intel states 100.8 MTr/sq.mm for 60/40 NAND+SFF logic.

https://newsroom.intel.com/newsroom/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2017/09/10-nm-icf-fact-sheet.pdf

 

[silentbogo]

I doubt his earlier "wishes" of TSMC to stop doing business with Huawei helped in this regard.
This whole proposition smells of horse piss, cause in the long run US govt. can use that fab, or a threat of switching to Intel as a leverage whenever they need something from TSMC.
DoD contracts may be good and plenty, but the real agenda is too obvious.

 

[Vayra86]

AMD's chiplet has ~52.7 MTr/sq.mm, while Navi 10 has ~41 MTr/sq.mm.

Intel states 100.8 MTr/sq.mm for 60/40 NAND+SFF logic.

https://newsroom.intel.com/newsroom/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2017/09/10-nm-icf-fact-sheet.pdf

Don't mistake density for power efficiency or performance. Die size can vary within the same package no problem. Look at Ryzen. It uses many chiplets to get to a single CPU. That's more die sq.mm than Intel, but still efficient and performant.

Intel can produce a smaller die, and ever since they moved to 22nm there are consistent problems with heat captured inside that tiny die. They are fighting that problem to this day, forced to move to different solutions under the IHS to make it work. On 10nm, their high density does not translate to higher performance than the competition.

Density only really matters from a cost/yield perspective.

 

[evernessince]

Average annual wage in South Korea ( in US Dollars):
View attachment 155019
I didn't realise the average US wage is $56k (though the median income is $32k).

UK average is £30k ($36k). - so SK pays more (on average) than UK wage.

Point being - they pay higher than minimum wage.

Average wage in the US is misleading as the billionaires bring the average artificially up. Median wage at $32K is far more accurate in terms of what actual Americans are seeing, and the median is worse then a lot of other 1st world countries. There really isn't a single area America leads in not except completely excessive defensive spending.

 

[Turmania]

Agent Orange has proven time and time again that no cows are sacred whenever he doesn't get his way. Taiwan is as likely to be thrown under the bus for no good reason, as any other nation that's nominally a US ally.

The only agent that watched some country annex anothers land is agent barack with russia annexing part of ukraine and did nothing. I dont like to talk politics here but can not as well let likes of you spread false and misguided information. And yes TSMC has a problem as Huwaei is becoming more and more their top customers.

 

[AsRock]

Agent Orange has proven time and time again that no cows are sacred whenever he doesn't get his way. Taiwan is as likely to be thrown under the bus for no good reason, as any other nation that's nominally a US ally.

WTF dude, worry about your own country, you mean how the UK dropped Honk Kong in the shit all those year ago.

 

[the54thvoid]

WTF dude, worry about your own country, you mean how the UK dropped Honk Kong in the shit all those year ago.

It was on a two-hundred year lease. We had to give it back.

Sorry, 99 years.

 

[AsRock]

Wasn't that after the treaty was changed ?, don't believe it was that originally.

anyways, all country's have a agenda and better support those who support you. And tbh i bet their is many reason's why they will not build another ? fab in the US. Their site seems to show they do have one in WA already how ever @R-T-B said one was in New York ?, which i remember being talked about some years ago.

 

[the54thvoid]

The actual piece is about a specific fab to build chips for the military. They are willing to build fabs for consumer and commercial products but going into a military contract creates huge ties and also, the aforementioned issue of global trust. It's not about having no fabs in the US.

From the OP:

will not build a Fab on US soil for the government. They haven't dismissed the possibility of building one or silicon manufacturing facilities in the US completely

 

[FordGT90Concept]

TSMC will lose some orders but the capital investment cost to build a fab in USA outstrips sales they'll lose from the US government. US government is a big purchaser, but TSMC competing directly with Intel on Intel's home turf...is a risky proposition.

 

[Ashtr1x]

With China already cloning Russian Tank technology and reverse engineered the Sukhoi Engines onto it's J20 with Shenyang WS-10 from Saturn AL31 and how they even got the AMD's Zen while DOD gave free pass during we know who's rule, Obama, allow for some Capital Investment to AMD, just pathetic. That Hygon x86 is going to become big soon, and the Zhaoxin x86 from VIA then they have that crappy Huawei Kirin ARM based one which abuses GNU GPL v2, runs a custom skin which abuses user's privileges on it's EMUI garbage and never allows a Bootloader unlock while having an LZ Play backdoor and we all know every single corporation if wants to do business in China needs the approval from the CPC like how Apple gave away all their Cloud data to the CPCs pawns and advertizes the best privacy and AWS in Beijing to the locals, and bends over just like how Activision did, just a bunch of spineless pricks for greed instead of America and it's principles.

The problem ? with the growing power of Tencent in US industry and all, Taiwan is heavily pressured, the TSMC 5nm is already big from Apple and HiSilison (Huawei). And China never recognises Taiwan, also Taiwan doesn't have a seat in UN as well, this is pure political drama going on. I wonder how it's going to be after Corona for the China, US, Taiwan and all the nations across the world. Oh also Japan did one thing, they announced a special package during Corona for Stimulus which included bonus funding for the Corporations who bring back the manufacturing back to Japan.

But we know the current drama from the PC agenda of "Orange Man Bad" haha, I'll just leave that to your imagination.

 

[Imsochobo]

I have a former colleague who used to work at TSMC as an engineer. Graduate jobs were said to be boring with long ours with occasional night shifts. A common complaint was that people with Masters and PhD were hired to do really simple jobs. The pay is really good though with some nice perks. If he stayed there for a couple more years his salary can reach six figures in USD.

and that's how you get a company to perfection, over education everywhere, every step is looked at with educated eyes

We protect Taiwan for a lot more than just TSMC...

True, But saying from Taiwan and TSMC's standpoint increasing reliance on Taiwan is in their best interest.