Upgrade Your Speakers

[Operandi]

I don't think you follow at all, you keep reverting back to how it needs to be analogue, if all analogue was better than minimal why do PowerDAC do a better job without an amp as such?

Yeah, I follow but understand that "PowerDAC" is marketing term. I don't care that they call it that cause it helps differentiate how its different but its an analog amplifier circuit somewhere doing the work to move the transducers. Thats the physics of it how this stuff works, whatever unique design elements the "PowerDAC" is employing its not changing anything in principle about how any of this works.

As to it doing a better job, it clearly didn't because thats not the avenue designers are perusing.

You should read more about the efficiency of Class D and PWM.

I'm familiar with class D. Class D but just to be clear the "D" does not stand for "digital" its just an amplifier topology designed around the principles of PWM and built with ICs instead of discrete components. Class D also usually uses a digital switch mode powersupply because of the low current damands but not always. The efficiencies attributed to class D amps is combination of those two design elements together but you can have a class D amp driven with linear power supply and and you and drive a class A or AB amp with a switching mode power supply.

Right now I'm working on building a class D amp based on ICEpower modules as well as class A amp, the ACA (amp camp amp) designed by Nelson Pass. Both of these amps happen to use switch mode power supplies but the ICEpower will be 90%+ efficient but the ACA will be more like 10%.

Analogue is so 1940's,

The world is analog. Digital is good for storing and preserving a binary representation of something analog because its now quantifiable, can be protected and reproduced forever without loss but its never going to be inherently better than whatever was analog to begin with. The Nyquist theory says that CD quality audio needs to be sampled at over twice the maximum audible frequency to avoid aliasing artifacts, and some say thats not even enough, it also dosen't get into oversampling.

Think of it as the difference between looking the view finder in a DSLR that is looking directly through the lens vs the electronic view finder in mirrorless camera.

also resistance effects the ability to pass power at a set rating, if you don't believe me make 100 Ohm speakers or coil up some cable.

Its all volts, amps, and watts; the ohm rating is just the numerical representation of the load of the voice coil to amplifier. While lower impedance drivers tend to be more efficient its not really a useful measurement of more resistance to work being done in the sense that one is wasting more energy its just a different kind of work load.

If I remember correctly car stereo setups have low resistance, due to the fact they run from a battery with limited charge, power loss is bad.

Car audio tends to use drivers that are all 4 ohm or lower because they are working with a system that has a relatively low input voltage of 12 volts. Its easier to get a amplifier to produce decent power with a lower ohm load on the output when are starting with a low input voltage.

You also can't measure optical in ohms, not conductive.

What does this have to do anything? You also can't hear optical.

Imagine a digital PCM amp increasing a signal to say 100 db as an example, and it costs £10, and uses 5v (1-2w for the amp), without loss.
Now the same but an A/B amp increasing a signal to say 100 db, but costs £500, and uses 150w, lossy.

What is a "digital PCM amp"? PCM is method of encoding sound in a digital format, its not sound, DSD is another format, its not sound either.

You need to decode whatever format you store the audio in, run it through some kind of reconstruction filter (the DAC) get a analog signal, which goes into a pre-amp (as a discrete component or as part of integrated amp) to attenuate or add gain in db and then as a fixed voltage ultimately into a power amp (class A, AB, or D).

"db" is measurement of dynamic range, as in how much signal do you have relative to your noise floor. You are using these terms incorrectly as "db" is not a measurement of power, or efficiency or anything at all related to driving a transducer to pressurize air which is what you need to "hear" sound. What you are looking for is "watts"; and its the unit used on both in the input and output of an amplifier. And none of this is done without loss (I assume you mean in terms of wasted heat and not lossy vs. lossless audio quality?), class D is roughly 90% efficient, class AB 60%, and class A roughly 10% but none of that matters or has anything to do with an amplifiers sound quality.

You only worry about the speaker itself with the Smart Speaker design, add more or buy different ones.

Ok.... now whats a "Smart Speaker"? Speakers with built in DACs and amplifiers are not new, and its all the same (DAC, pre-amp, amp) steps I mentioned above just all done in the speaker. They are also not inherently better than passive speakers, just more convenient for people that don't want dedicated audio components.

 

[Ferather]

There are several factors the setup addresses, this includes THD, power induced THD + N, and amplification of power noise, and getting the purest input to speaker.

The PowerDAC in the design outputs the digital input signal (not power based), which has been amped or reduced in PCM form (not power), there is no traditional amp, just an analogue power stage.
The power stage is right at the end, 2cm in front, or a part of the speakers driver, this means there isn't even a Class D, per say. Turning up your music (PCM) increases output signal.

Here is a cheap and easy to produce traditional DAC, the PowerDAC is similar but directly feeding power as part of conversion.

In the analogue domain, there will be loss all the way long the circuit, and much more power consumed.
The Smart Speaker design also stops things blowing up, due to regulation of signal.

You generally need more parts, more money, and higher running costs to get slightly closer to the digital domain, when everything is analogue, and conductive.

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If you have ever worked with SPDIF-TOSlink, you should already be aware you can increase signal to amp-speakers.
Optical does not conduct power or magnetism, its either plastic or glass, both insulators.

Also note, my PC and my Z906 are electronically isolated from each other.

----



Notice the minimal circuiting with a HDA device.

 

[emanresu]

No more silver cables and hysteria.
No milkin', only honey

 

[cvaldes]

And your point is? Widely adopted commercially viable wireless charging has been around for years. The popular Qi standard started in 2008.

And this is one LED. How about an electric toothbrush, smartphone, or smartwatch? (These are all commonplace consumer items.)

This is not a groundbreaking concept in 2022.

Worse, this cute shiny LED doesn't address practical matters and consumer usage for today's marketplace.

These two coils are maybe 1.5 cm apart. For home audio, you'd need something like 4-5 meters of wireless power transmission for a satellite speaker in a multi-channel system.

You have a habit of creating theoretical scenarios without any regard to practical real world applications or commercial viability in a consumer marketplace that is overwhelmingly driven by convenience and low entry price. My guess is that most of your proposed "designs" have been prototyped in labs for years if not decades.

And worse, you have a marked propensity to hijack other discussions and turn them into your digital audio dreamland bubble world. The world needs dreamers. But not at the expense of someone else's original discussion topic.

This is a discussion about a speaker mod.

 

[Operandi]

I'm not trying to be rude but there are so many misconceptions about how this fundamentally works here its hard to understand the point you are trying to make let alone form a response. If you don't understand how any of this works in a traditional sense you are at pretty horrible position to try to be talking about reinventing the whole process which you seem to think this concept of "PowerDAC" is (its not, its just repackaging the same concepts in novel form factor).

Just a few points that you can research elsewhere and then if you want start a different thread over take it to PMs or whatever... but which has already been pointed out this thread is about modifying the (analog) components of a speaker. And no replacing the (analog) crossover with a DSP is not the answer to a better speaker which I guess is why you brought it up?

PCM (or any other kind of format) is not something you can send to speaker, its a digital format for sound, thats it (it would be like trying to listen to piece of sheet music). It (PCM) has a dynamic range represented in db (the bit depth) and you can attenuate it digitally but that has nothing to do what is driving your speakers or headphones. This is what you are talking about when you say "increase signal to amp-speakers" in reference to optical. You have whatever your bit depth is and thats the dynamic range of your "signal" but it 100% always has to be converted to a analog signal and then amplified by a class A, AB, or D amplifier (thats all the topologies that I know of). You posted a link to some generic low-end DAC board and are proposing you somehow can directly "power it", and that would be better than a analog amp? You certainly could put enough voltage and current behind that signal drive speakers with it and get output but it would just be noise.

Watts is what moves a transducer and pressurizes the air, so watts is the unit of measurement used here not db. For a speaker 1 watt at 1 meter is often given in db to represent a speakers efficiency and an n amplifier will have SNR (signal to noise ratio) represented in db. Your integrated amplifier or pre-amp will also work in db (in similar way you can attenuate the signal digitally in software), for example with my Pioneer A9 and relatively efficient Singularities rarely do I go beyond -14 db on the dial. Thats really about it for "db" being a useful metric for anything an end user would look at or care about.

This concept of the analog domain being lossy and somehow digital being the answer to this problem make zero sense is stems from your lack of understanding key concepts about how sound goes from binary PCM to pressurized air. All sound in the psychoacoustic sense is analog, and the nano second the bits hit the DAC its all lossy, thats how it works and why none of what you are talking about is a solution to anything. This came up in my other thread about MP3 vs lossless audio where you asked about lossless DAC which can't and never will exist.

The same goes with this notion of analog consuming power and somehow "digital" is the answer for that too... The efficiency of the amp is what it is, watts consumed on the input side and watts measured via its out, thats all there is to it. Class A is the worst in that regard and class D is the best in terms of efficiency but good class D is hard; look at Hypex, Purifi, Icepower, Orchard Audio for the cutting edge in class D. You can't "power PCM" or whatever you talking about because it would just be noise but if you did it would still be measured the same way in watts.

That picture of the flow chart of the HD audio codec doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. The optical output its simple because its just passing the bits, its not doing anything audio related, it dosn't make it a better form of audio because its not audio. And being galvanically isolated is nice but who cares when optical is arguably the worst form of connecting a DAC and what you are connecting it to is low end multimedia speakers? Galvanic isolation is a nice feature but if we are talking about driving towards better sound there are better interfaces than optical and order of magnitude improvements to be made literally everywhere else that make the benefits of 100% galvanic isolation trivial. If it solves a problem of your source being particularly noisy and/or your DAC rejecting that noise then fine but there are better ways for a source to interface with a DAC.

I'd suggest reading on the ASR or DIY Audio forums, more opinionated like any specialized forum but lots of smart people there. Paul McGowan from PS Audio has a YouTube channel where he answers tons of technical questions on all topics of audio in short a pretty concise format so thats a good resources to get insight pretty much every aspect of this.

 

[Ferather]

@Operandi

Thanks for the PM on PowerDAC's.

Thought I'd say something here too, the tech is new enough that very few of you even know of its existence at all. For example, how many of you know the current SPDIF standard is 15 channels total?
My design is intended to implement the base design of a full digital system, but bring it to the consumer level at a reduced cost. With the idea the only thing to change is the speakers.

I essentially took the base design of the PowerDAC, removed the amp, and built the P-DAC as a more simple digital in to analogue out (for speaker drivers).
The normal PowerDAC version works with PWM, whereas my design continues its path as PCM, not changed (other than volume).

The DSP is much more like a normal soundcard, working with PCM (or decoding to PCM), and PCM volume.

====

Imagine, even for headphones, a DSP you can plug them into, that also has all the DTS-Dolby effects you see on PC (PCM), and can be updated via USB.

Digital stage amplifier (optical does not conduct) > [Input signal to power > analogue] Speaker

----

The JIS F05 allows support for any older SPDIF devices, which do stereo or DTS Surround, Dolby Digital Live. And the in-between devices supporting up to 8 channels on the older SPDIF.
Given the current 15 channel (@192k) standard and JIS F05 allowing up to 125mbps NRZ, full format support can be added to the DSP amp (with power supply).

The single outputs, per speaker, are mono (PCM), therefore each speaker has its own P-DAC, and specs (cheap, expensive).

 

[Operandi]

Did you read anything I wrote? You can't amplify PCM, that would just be digital noise.

simple digital in to analogue out (for speaker drivers)

Thats a meaningless combination of words. You 100%, all of the time need the DAC and amp to do their respective jobs for any of this (sound) to work. Thats not my opinion thats just the facts of processes and its not simple to get good results.

Every competent EE working in the audio field probably has some dreamy notion of a nearly perfect all digital circuit design but being all digital dosen't aromatically make it cheap or even better. Look at the Technics R1000 and G700 I PM'd you about, those are $10,000 and $2500 respectively and from Panasonic which is a behemoth of electrical expertise and resources. Those are the only examples being made and sold that I know of (and I only found the Technics 3 days ago) aside from that crazy boutique failed PowerDAC which I'm sure was even more expensive.

If you are going to talk about this stuff you need to grasp the basics. You also need to start a new thread for this topic.

 

[Ferather]

A media player, lets saying playing an MP3, will decode to PCM, if you adjust the volume on the media player, the output (we go with optical, no power, digital) reduces-gains as you change it.
Currently I am playing audio via my media player connected via optical, I am able to change the volume into the receiver, which changes the output volume.

I can also turn up the knob, and use the amp to increase the signal, for example turning down the media player, turning up the amp.
There is still a DAC, but its not just a converter to analogue, it also adds the power.

The idea is not to amplify power signals as much as possible, and instead convert with the necessary power output (analogue is power in a circuit).

You can most certainly amplify-reduce PCM signals without loss (as far as I can tell), also note the media player sends the PCM to your sound device, in my case optical out.
The volume for the media player and my sound output device are separate, I can also gain-reduce the volume via Windows, all in PCM.

As far as how far you can amplify PCM, I believe 32 bit is the answer. A true 24 bit equals to 144 dB.




Software APO (on sound device), with gain (PCM).



The DAC is in my receiver, after the sound device.

 

[Operandi]

Your conceptual understand of this is 100% wrong. All your points of argument are based on fantasy that only make sense in your head but in no shape or form reflect reality. There can be no intelligent conversion until you get a basic grasp of the concepts you are constantly incorrectly referencing. Forget everything you know and start over, go follow up on some of the resources I linked to above and then start a new thread cause right now your just spreading misinformation and nonesense. The following are irrefutable facts....

PCM is a digital format to digitally encode audio but PCM is not sound.

The bit depth is the amount of dynamic range in db. You absolutely 100% can not amplify PCM, its 1s and 0s, thats it. If you change the volume with software (but only down, so attenuation) you are compressing the dynamic range of the PCM but you are not changing the bit depth and its loss if you do this.

A DAC is a converter thats it, nothing more. Its a low power (in simple form a watt or two) line level device; its output voltage ("power" in your head I guess?) does not change. If a DAC has volume control then its also a pre-amp but a pre-amp is also line level device so thats not adding "power" either.

An amplifier is the only thing that adds power and its in "watts". Not db, or whatever amount of dynamic range the bit depth of PCM you are talking about.

 

[trickson]

LOL.
GR-Research I have watch a ton of his videos and all he can do is give you a crossover and some padding for your box.
Fact is without fundamentally changing the box or the driver it's self-there is little to nothing other than a crossover that can help.
HE gets a lot of Klipsch speakers in and say's for close to half the price of the speaker you can get the crossover needed to "Fix" the speakers. LMFAO!
Klipsch has been designing their speakers for 50+ years and he has the "FIX"? LMFAO! And it will cost you.
I paid $1,800 bucks for the RP-8000F II's and they are AMAZING Infact all my Klipsch speakers STOCK are AMAZING! all that techno babble them audio experts push out is just to make some extra scratch IMHO.
My Denon 105w Atmos system can push my Klipsch speakers without fail.
This system is an audiophiles dream and a GR research nightmare!

PCM is Pulse-code modulation and is only stereo Left and right Channel.
Nothing more. IF you get a PCM signal your AVR is going to have to do all the heavy lifting, It takes the PCM and can turn it into surround sound but it is more a simulation at best. True Atmos and surround sound is NOT PCM ever!

 

[Operandi]

GR-Research I have watch a ton of his videos and all he can do is give you a crossover and some padding for your box.
Fact is without fundamentally changing the box or the driver it's self-there is little to nothing other than a crossover that can help.

The crossover is half of the design. Box size determines the tuning frequency, baffle size and shape determines defraction pattern. Everything else is the performance characteristics of drivers and the crossover, those are the facts.

HE gets a lot of Klipsch speakers in and say's for close to half the price of the speaker you can get the crossover needed to "Fix" the speakers. LMFAO!
Klipsch has been designing their speakers for 50+ years and he has the "FIX"? LMFAO!

Do you understand the concepts at work here? The measurements are the measurements, and you can see the same thing here and here. Not being ruler flat is not a big deal in my opinion as part of that is the Klipsch sound and some people prefer it but I'd guess they'd like the speaker more with a more neutral response and sorry that huge dip and that phase issue is a flaw. Cheap crossover parts are cheap crossover parts, and all mass produced speakers are built to a price but I'd expect better quality for the MSRP. 50+ years of legacy and heritage have little to do with the vast majority of what they are making today, that would be their heritage line like the Heresy and Forte.

And it will cost you.

Yeah, cause the crossover is using orders of magnitude better quality components. Look at the price difference between a electrolytic capacitor and polypropylene cap, its the same for air vs. iron core inductors.

I paid $1,800 bucks for the RP-8000F II's and they are AMAZING Infact all my Klipsch speakers STOCK are AMAZING!

These speakers can still sound good with crossover issues and cheap parts but they'd sound better without the problems and better quality components. In fact the MkII version of this line is basically the same speaker with slightly improved woofer but largely fixes all the crossover issues.

all that techno babble them audio experts push out is just to make some extra scratch IMHO.

You mean measurements and a technical explanation of the speakers response? Explain what is wrong GR Research's crossover or what is better about the stock form.

 

[P4-630]

I've been out of audio for awhile but have been getting back into it and though YouTube found GR Research is selling DIY upgrade kits for many commercially available speakers. Klipsch, B&W, Polk, ect.

A bit of an introduction to the concept...

Speaker upgrades are not a new concept for anyone into the DIY aspect of audio. All speakers are built to a price point so unless you are spending 5 figures there is always going to be room for improvement with better components, cabinet modifications and crossover network changes, the opportunity has always been there. The issue is most people with the means to analyze a speakers shortcomings and address them would just be better off building something better from scratch, which is what most of what the DIY market is. Publishing these videos and making the kits available opens up this concept to tons of people that want to upgrade what they have, get into a new level of sound quality that would normally otherwise be financially out of reach, and learn something in the process.

About GR Research...

GR Research is one of the companies out there thats been selling kits, raw drivers for quite while, and (in the past at least) did design work for larger speaker manufactures. I'm not sure who builds the drivers but I believe they are their own design. They also sold their speaker designs in partnership with AV123 which got good reviews and praise for their value but many may be more familiar with due to their dramatic impulsion. Their kits and designs have always been well regarded from what I remember (the AV122 thing happened right when I was getting into audio) and it looks like they are still selling some of those same designs from then as kits.

It looks like there is a pretty huge library of upgrade videos on YouTube for various speaker upgrades from budget to high-end, and some vintage stuff as well. They sell a lot of the more popular redesigns (popular speakers that make good candidates) as kits but you can follow his work from the videos or it looks like if you reach out he's willing to work on something if you want it upgraded. Seems like a pretty good way for someone make a pretty significant upgrade to their sound and learn something in the process. All you need is a soldering iron, the ability to read and electrical diagram, and the time.

Fixing a popular commercial design...

This is a long form video of the entire process of upgrading the Klipsch RP-600M (the others are more concise, and look at just the redesign) which is a solidly reviewed mid-range speaker. Its a decent speaker but its pretty clear looking at the crossover components and the measured response that concessions were made to hit that price point and corners were cut during the cabinet construction.

Before and after measurement results...

Stock frequency response, notice the bump at around 800Hz and the huge dip after 1Khz. This is not a intentional design decision but cost concession for mass produced product and/or done for product segmentation to protect the high-end line.

Response with new crossover design, all the response issues resolved.

As not great as the on axis response is the stock horizontal off-axis response is worse. That dip becomes a response sink hole (he vertical response looks just as bad btw).

New off axis response is much improved, sound will remain good through a variety of positions.

About $230 for a new redesigned crossover with vastly improved components, cabinet dampening, cable and connectors. It will sound similar in sense that its using the same drivers but correcting the crossover flaws and upgrading everything in the signal path and you will end up with essentially a new speaker that would be several price tiers up.

@Operandi your pictures are gone in the OP.

It's best to upload the pictures directly in your post so they stay there...

 

[trickson]

The crossover is half of the design. Box size determines the tuning frequency, baffle size and shape determines defraction pattern. Everything else is the performance characteristics of drivers and the crossover, those are the facts.

Do you understand the concepts at work here? The measurements are the measurements, and you can see the same thing here and here. Not being ruler flat is not a big deal in my opinion as part of that is the Klipsch sound and some people prefer it but I'd guess they'd like the speaker more with a more neutral response and sorry that huge dip and that phase issue is a flaw. Cheap crossover parts are cheap crossover parts, and all mass produced speakers are built to a price but I'd expect better quality for the MSRP. 50+ years of legacy and heritage have little to do with the vast majority of what they are making today, that would be their heritage line like the Heresy and Forte.

Yeah, cause the crossover is using orders of magnitude better quality components. Look at the price difference between a electrolytic capacitor and polypropylene cap, its the same for air vs. iron core inductors.

These speakers can still sound good with crossover issues and cheap parts but they'd sound better without the problems and better quality components. In fact the MkII version of this line is basically the same speaker with slightly improved woofer but largely fixes all the crossover issues.

You mean measurements and a technical explanation of the speakers response? Explain what is wrong GR Research's crossover or what is better about the stock form.

I understand the concept and that is to make money even if it is a placebo effect. Cough** Cables **Cough **Cough...
Can you tell me what is wrong with the crossover I have first then maybe I can tell you how I feel about spending extra cash on parts.
Klipsch has been designing and building speakers for over 50 years and all the sudden you come along with a fix?
Okay how about I try the "fix" then if I feel like it is worth the 800 + Bucks I will pay it?
I do not mean to sound like a dick, but wouldn't Klipsch a premier Audiophile loudspeaker manufacture already have great parts in their products? If not, why are they the top selling speakers of all time?
Measurements are meaningless if they are not taken in the room, they will be used in. You are trying to convince me that my speakers need some help when I can assure you, they are Factory perfect.
Sound drivers are more than just a measurement they are an instrument.
I bet you do not even know Klipsch speakers are designed to be as close to the wall as you want? The closer to the wall you put them the more bass you get from them.
This is why lots are stunned when they get them home set them up and think they did not sound this tinny at the store. they put them 1-2" from a WALL (even a fake wall) this gives them the big bass sound you hear at the store then get all upsad because some smart azz audiophile told them they need to be 18"-36" from the wall.

Klipsch broke the mold when they came out with, there Tractrix design.
At any rate if you think you can improve on perfection by all means go for it. But I do not need to. not at all.
The Denon and Klipsch are a perfect match. No others can even come close to the sweet sound I get from my system.
I take great pride in all my builds my HT is no exception.
To hear my system in full action would be comparable to watching in an Imax theater.

The crossover is half of the design. Box size determines the tuning frequency, baffle size and shape determines defraction pattern. Everything else is the performance characteristics of drivers and the crossover, those are the facts.

Again, without changing the Box size and the baffle or port there is nothing left that can be done other than a crossover and that is FACT!
You can put more foam padding in a box for less resonance and all that jazz but honestly you are asking people to buy a "KIT" and install this themselves that is a huge thing IMHO to take on just for a tad bit if any improvement in sound.
How are you going to change the pitch of the speaker without changing the box and port and crossover and at best you may get some improvement in sound delivery but not in sound quality.
So again, I am still left asking just how is a GR research kit going to improve my speakers? You are still trying to put a hat on a hat.
Oh and "better" parts? How "Bad" are the parts they sell with their NAME on them?!
All my Klipsch crossovers have Prats all marked with Klipsch's NAME! Seems a bit of a reach you saying that I can upgrade my speakers with some 500 bucks' worth of parts.
LOL anything to make a buck.
Audiophiles might buy this BS but not me!

 

[Voodoo Rufus]

Wow this thread has gone off the rails.....

Klipsch of today is not the Klipsch of yesteryear. Their higher end speakers will still be quality, but their middle and lower end offerings are retail grade. Their claim to fame has been high efficiency afforded through horn loading, which lowers IMD (intermodulation distortion). It's known that they like to run their speakers a little on the bright side as you can see from the measurements linked above. Looks like the in room response levels it out from the bass bump given by room harmonics.

Quality speakers start with quality drivers. After that, crossover design and component quality. Then, design your box correctly (and there's a lot that goes into box tuning, also). Cheap crossovers are cheap. Can you hear the difference? It depends on a lot. Does Klipsch know how to design crossovers? Hell yeah they do. I'm sure their modern crossovers are better designed and modeled than in the old days of slide rules and hand math. How good are their parts? Only one way to find out.

So go ahead, open up your speakers and check out the crossovers and their specs. Cheap crossover parts CAN sound just fine, but it's about selecting the right components for the job you're asking them to do.

That said, when I build speakers, I do not skimp on the crossover parts. I might have $400 in drivers for one speaker, and $200 in the crossover.

 

[trickson]

Wow this thread has gone off the rails.....

Klipsch of today is not the Klipsch of yesteryear. Their higher end speakers will still be quality, but their middle and lower end offerings are retail grade. Their claim to fame has been high efficiency afforded through horn loading, which lowers IMD (intermodulation distortion). It's known that they like to run their speakers a little on the bright side as you can see from the measurements linked above. Looks like the in room response levels it out from the bass bump given by room harmonics.

Quality speakers start with quality drivers. After that, crossover design and component quality. Then, design your box correctly (and there's a lot that goes into box tuning, also). Cheap crossovers are cheap. Can you hear the difference? It depends on a lot. Does Klipsch know how to design crossovers? Hell yeah they do. I'm sure their modern crossovers are better designed and modeled than in the old days of slide rules and hand math. How good are their parts? Only one way to find out.

So go ahead, open up your speakers and check out the crossovers and their specs. Cheap crossover parts CAN sound just fine, but it's about selecting the right components for the job you're asking them to do.

That said, when I build speakers, I do not skimp on the crossover parts. I might have $400 in drivers for one speaker, and $200 in the crossover.

I have a lot of Klipsch speakers I got tired of B&W and even SVS, Klipsch are a very bright speaker because people do not know the right placement of the speakers.
Klipsch are designed to be at a minimum of 6" from the wall. closer ='s more bass like I mentioned the new RP'II line doesn't need as much toe-in as the older lines needed.
I have opened one of my Klipsch speakers and seen this sweet crossover MB with parts on it stamped with the Klipsch name.
I also want to point out that Klipsch are not just midgrade speakers I take umbrage to that. I feel that My Klipsch speakers are just as good if not as good as any B&W or SVS excreta.
When I have to pop out 5K for speakers I do NOT consider them some low-level midgrade crap. or retail offerings. They are just as good if not better even better looking than most speakers out there. No other speaker looks as cool as Klipsch sorry!

I mean just look at all that sexy! All that AUDIOPHILE SEXY! You can NOT deny it they are in a category all by themselves!

 

[jallenlabs]

Insert popcorn eating gif here*

 

[trickson]

Insert popcorn eating gif here*

I've been out of audio for awhile but have been getting back into it and though YouTube found GR Research is selling DIY upgrade kits for many commercially available speakers. Klipsch, B&W, Polk, ect.

This guy is a snake oil salesman.
Much like all of them selling Upgrade kits. LOL.
I cannot see how a MAJOR audiophile loudspeaker company needs GR Research to fix them. OMG!
Why wouldn't Klipsch and the others just come to him for the FIX to their Loudspeakers? And to see the prices for crossovers and some sound batting material?
Now how is it Klipsch are making "Bad" crossovers and speakers again?
The measurements are off? LMFAO! Why Oh LORD why?

The Audiophiles are going to hate me now.

 

[jallenlabs]

If a set of speakers needs 400 bucks more added to their 400$ msrp, then just spend double on your speakers... or will those need an $800 upgrade???
I own klipsch rp500m/sub at my gaming rig, Presonus monitors/sub at my workstation. They sound great for their purpose.

 

[trickson]

If a set of speakers needs 400 bucks more added to their 400$ msrp, then just spend double on your speakers... or will those need an $800 upgrade???
I own klipsch rp500m/sub at my gaming ri, Presonus monitors/sub at my workstation. They sound great for their purpose.

Right? I think he wanted like $300.00 bucks for the fix for my RP-6000F I think I seen a kit for the RP-8000F II going for like $800.00 bucks! I mean WOW for a crossover and some no-rez (I think he calls it) for the speaker box.
My question is after spending more on them does this bring them to Audiophile quality? Can I get a Certificate of Audiophile quality?
I just don't get it, if they are that "Bad" Why not just hire GR research for all your speaker needs? Is Klipsch really missing this guy?
LOL I just bust a gut listening to audiophiles they are so gullible and eager to spend that expendable cash for that placebo sound effect. LMFAO!

** Cables ** Cough *** cables ** Cough**

He even makes cables out of regular speaker wire and a mix of other stuff that makes no sense whatso ever!

 

[trickson]

The only true way to upgrade speakers is to get new ones. IMHO if you have to spend just as much on a crossover as for drivers and a box would it not just be better to buy new than try to make do with the old ones that are NOT worth the extra scratch?
This way you get new speakers as well as parts.
I tell you what if Danny can take a $60 dollar Sony speaker and make it sound as good as my Klipsch (ANYONE OF THEM) I will have him and pay him to "FIX" my Klipsch. Till Then I am not convinced no not at all.

 

[Operandi]

I understand the concept and that is to make money even if it is a placebo effect. Cough** Cables **Cough **Cough...

You clearly don't understand, and don't seem to care to. Crossover design and crossover components are not placebo. The design and topology of the crossover is going to affect the tonality of the speaker and its response and phase on and off axis. Inductors, capacitors, resistors all have electromechanical values that influence the sound, because sound reproduction is all electromechanical.

Can you tell me what is wrong with the crossover I have first then maybe I can tell you how I feel about spending extra cash on parts.

Whats wrong with the stock version is evident in the measurements (I'll see if I can get pictures back in the OP, or repost them). The basics of frequency response, and the phase relationship of the drivers are not really that hard to understand if take 30 mins to learn. Then the measurements will make sense, or don't and continue to call it techno babble.

I do not mean to sound like a dick, but wouldn't Klipsch a premier Audiophile loudspeaker manufacture already have great parts in their products? If not, why are they the top selling speakers of all time?

You sound like a rabid fanboy that is using classic flawed internet logic, aka conjecture and supposition.

The point of this thread wasn't to shit on Klipsch but to show how all large volume commercial speakers like this are built to price point and can be flawed either through bad design or extreme cost cutting measures. Its meant to be a learning opportunity and a chance for people to upgrade their speakers if they like them. The fact that someone is designing better a better crossover means its good enough to be upgraded in the first place.

Klipsch is part of a much larger conglomerate, Voxx International. Like all the big brands they are competing on price and at scale, it just has to be good enough. If they can use a $1 capacitor that offers 50% of a $5 capacitor they are going to do that all top to bottom in the design process. Thats how you get speakers like the KEF Q150 and LS50, using the same basic driver (exactly the same?) but everything around it is completely different, one is a designed to hit a price point and other is a none constrained price design.

That dosn't make Klipsch bad or a shit brand, thats just the way it works, all the big companies do this. The response issues (for the OG 600M) though are different story.

Measurements are meaningless if they are not taken in the room, they will be used in. You are trying to convince me that my speakers need some help when I can assure you, they are Factory perfect.

Measurements are not meaningless, thats tonality of the speaker and how its going to sound in room. The speaker is measured anechoiclly, typical in room response is built into the design. Room issues are addressed with speaker placement, room treatments, and EQ but they don't make the speakers measurements irrelevant.

Sound drivers are more than just a measurement they are an instrument.

I agree but measurements tell you an awful lot and the response is pretty much the tonality of the speaker.

I bet you do not even know Klipsch speakers are designed to be as close to the wall as you want? The closer to the wall you put them the more bass you get from them.
This is why lots are stunned when they get them home set them up and think they did not sound this tinny at the store. they put them 1-2" from a WALL (even a fake wall) this gives them the big bass sound you hear at the store then get all upsad because some smart azz audiophile told them they need to be 18"-36" from the wall.

How close or far you need to be away from the wall is all down to diffraction patter of the drivers and crossover design. Klipsch isn't using magic, its just physics and everyone is playing by the same rules.

Klipsch broke the mold when they came out with, there Tractrix design.

Tractrix = marketing speak for the tweeter which is kinda in between a wave guide and horn.

Again, without changing the Box size and the baffle or port there is nothing left that can be done other than a crossover and that is FACT!

Again you don't know what a crossover does and adding "!!s" and ALL CAPS dosen't lend your arguments any more credibility. Box size is the tuning frequency of the bass response, baffle size and shape affects diffraction, everything else is the drivers and crossover. You can play with this stuff and see how it works if you want, Passive Crossover Designer is free if you have Excel.

I have opened one of my Klipsch speakers and seen this sweet crossover MB with parts on it stamped with the Klipsch name.

Sourced from the same far east manufactures everyone else in this category is using.

 

[trickson]

Again, if you really think that you can improve or have improved on the Klipsch speakers how come they haven't just switched over to your stuff? Or got Danny to work for them?
I just think it is a bit of disingenuous to Klipsch speakers.
I Made crossovers in the 80's in high school electronics class. I may not be a audio expert but I do know a bit about electronics. Oh, I also MADE my own speakers in that class as well they were sweet 150W HAND wound by my own hands the coil and even made a new cone for them. Yeah, I do know a bit of what I am talking about. even if you want to use that Audiophile lingo to try and convince me I am wrong.
So, I present to you this challenge, make a $60 dollar Sony speaker sound as good as my KD-51M And I will be SOLD I will trash all my crossovers and buy up all Danny can make for my speakers I have 6 pair of Klipsch speakers. Till then I am going to remain a sceptic.
I will be glad to concede and say I was so totally wrong as well.
But till I can hear it for myself I just do not buy into it.
***Cough***Cables***Cough*** Cables *** cough...

And PS I am a fanboy I always have been I have a very long history here as a fanboy. AMD's #1 FANBOY HERE and Klipsch as well as DENON!
Do not hate me because I have great equipment, Hate the Equipment you have that is not that great..

 

[claes]

Now I have a headache

 

[trickson]

LMFAO You had me all the way up till I seen that Climate scientist.

 

[P4-630]

And I'm happy with my Panasonic....