UPS on lithium batteries

[Deleted member 191766]

suggests the UPS application will work.

 

[milewski1015]

I will never offer to any one my in-depth experiences, but a few pictures they will not cause any harm even to hobbyists.



This will awake some of your memories

APC UXBP24 battery box UNBOXING - Thanks to one eBay seller :-)

APC UXBP24 battery box UNBOXING - Thanks to one eBay seller :-)

www.ittsb.eu

Not sure if it was those exact ones, but I recall having to remove the batteries from RBCs very similar to the ones pictured a few times - I don't remember the cardboard spacers in them, but they were definitely that size, shape, and configuration. Those ones were a bitch and a half, that's for sure.

 

[1freedude]

I say go for it. Most here might be hung up on the fact that the item description clearly states for optimal usage.....use specific charger. The danger of overcharging a lifepo4 with sla or even flooded cell charger when it has an included bms is almost non existent. The bms will have to work hard when at 90-99 percent capacity, to optimize the charge of the battery, but im guessing it also has a balance circuit to keep each cell healthy.

 

[yotano211]

I love Lithium batteries, got 500ah 12v on a sailboat. The old AGM lead acid batteries dont compare.

 

[John Naylor]

1. Have to remember that it's not just one type of battery being better or worse ... the charger must be suited for the battery. This may not always be the case.

2. Yes, with Increased Battery Load, by definition = Increased amperage. Its right in the formula.

P = A x V or A = P / V

Current (A) = Watts (P) / Voltage (V)

So if voltage remains constant and load increase.... then if amperage does not increase proportionally then the formula doesn't work. Battery Chargers have to be concerned with overheating the battery, so they will have current limiters to prevent damage ... but yes, current does vary. There will be a maximum current rating which the limiter will protect it from, but it will reduce amperage when the max is not needed.

3. Would also suggest that you consider than price and compatibility ...

a) Shipping - some vendors provide free shipping others don't and batteries are quite heavy.
b) When I last shopped for replacement batteries, there was a wide variance in warranty (1 - 4 years)
c) Usage matters ... some vendors add an extra year to the warranty if used in an UPS
d) Payment Method - many AMEX cards add an additional 1 year warranty to everything ypu purchase

 

[kiriakost]

I love Lithium batteries, got 500ah 12v on a sailboat. The old AGM lead acid batteries dont compare.

The sudden cut-off and the poor performance at cold weather, this is something that AGM will never do.
Lithium and cold weather this is 30% lower delivery / capacity, in mAh and crank current.
Lifepo4 behave the same at cold weather , below 16 Celsius.
For critical applications AGM with double plates this is the only solution (snowmobiles) or marine use.

 

[Bill_Bright]

So if voltage remains constant and load increase.... then if amperage does not increase proportionally then the formula doesn't work.

Huh? The formula always works. Period.

It is based on the Laws of Physics. So if the voltage remains constant and the load increases, current WILL go up in the formula. Period. And why? Because the formula says so.

If the current does not go up in the hardware as dictated by the formula, then something in the hardware doesn't work - either by design (as in some form of over-current or thermal protection) or by some fault. Either way, the formula always works.

The sudden cut-off and the poor performance at cold weather, this is something that AGM will never do.

Never do? Huh? This of course is not true either as 30 seconds with Google easily shows.

While certainly excessive heat is more destructive to batteries than extreme cold (see line 4 in my signature), when any battery, including AGM batteries, are subjected to cold (not even extreme cold) the chemical reaction processes that produce the electricity slow down. This is why batteries designed for vehicles (cars, boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc.) typically have a CCA (cold cranking amps) rating too. When these batteries are subjected to extreme colds, those chemical processes may completely stop! When the chemical processes slow down, performance drops. When the chemical processes stop, so does current flow.

Where AGM batteries differ is when their temperatures return to normal, so do their capacities (unless frozen solid at about -75°F/-60°C).

Cold Weather And Your Batteries

AGM/gel batteries could lose as much as 76% of their capacity at -4F (-20C).

By most metrics, AGM/SLA/gel batteries are not much better in cold weather than flooded versions.

[PDF] The Effects of Cold on Batteries

How Does Cold Effect the Battery?
Batteries become "inactive" when they become cold!

 

[kiriakost]

I have no intention to scare you, but I am the son of a cars freelancer electrician, but I escaped from that route and got at industrial electronics and power electronics because I lost my father in the age of fifteen years old.
For outdoor use, just get AGM with double plates.
YUASA Japan has such a series.

 

[R-T-B]

I have no intention to scare you, but I am the son of a cars freelancer electrician, but I escaped from that route and got at industrial electronics and power electronics because I lost my father in the age of fifteen years old.
For outdoor use, just get AGM with double plates.
YUASA Japan has such a series.

And I am the son of an auto mechanic. He hurt his hip & back falling from a ladder recently, and now just sits on the couch and yells at the TV.

Point is, bill still is right about the chemistry. There may be AGMs that can handle cold, but there are also Lithium batteries that can too. Those Dakota ones quoted are rated down to -20 F.

 

[kiriakost]

And I am the son of an auto mechanic. He hurt his hip & back falling from a ladder recently, and now just sits on the couch and yells at the TV.

Point is, bill still is right about the chemistry. There may be AGMs that can handle cold, but there are also Lithium batteries that can too. Those Dakota ones quoted are rated down to -20 F.

I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.

 

[1freedude]

I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.

Here you are

EarthX ETX-900 TSO 14V Aircraft Lithium Battery | Aircraft Spruce

EarthX ETX-900 TSO 14V Aircraft Lithium Battery The ETX900-TSO Certified Aircraft battery is only 5.4 pounds and can be used in an aircraft that has an alternator/generator with 80 amps output or less. This battery has electronic protection

www.aircraftspruce.com

While i was not an avi guy, I was a strucural mechanic for rotary wing craft. Lithium, especially lifepo4, can do every thing lead can. The only cell better is NiMH.

And Bill, car batts and the like are made from 2 volt cells to create a 6s battery

 

[Bill_Bright]

And Bill, car batts and the like are made from 2 volt cells to create a 6s battery

Ummm... okay.

That's common knowledge for many - especially for those of us who grew up when car batteries had 6 filler caps and we periodically had to check and fill each cell with distilled water when low.

I also spent a few semester hours in school studying batteries, as might be assumed if you follow the link in my sig. 12V UPS SLA batteries are made up of 6 cells too. Any battery can become a cell in a bigger battery simply by adding (strapping) more batteries together in the pack. This flashlight uses 2 AA batteries. But they turn into cells once inserted in the flashlight where they then become its one battery.

This replacement APC battery is one battery. It is also two batteries that became two cells in one battery once strapped together. So I don't see your point. It is irrelevant here anyway. This discussion is not about cells in a battery.

I have no intention to scare you, but I am the son of a [fill in the blank].

I also don't see the point of who our fathers are. What scares me is seem to think that matters! I am sorry you lost your dad at such a young age, but that's part of life too. I've lost both my parents, and my only sister was taken tragically. But that's irrelevant too.

My dad graduated West Point on D-Day, and quickly became a P-38 fighter and recon pilot and instructor pilot during WWII. That does not make me an ace pilot. I'm a certified master electronics technician with nearly 50 years experience. But my son is a banker and knows nothing about electronics or computers. That's doesn't scare me either. Big banks ruling the world does, but that's irrelevant here too.

Lithium, especially lifepo4, can do every thing lead can. The only cell better is NiMH.

Ummm, not hardly. Again, 30 seconds with Google tells us NiMH have about the worst shelf-life of any battery type with the typical NiMH battery losing 50% of its charge in 30 days. They also have lower voltage capacities per cell. That requires more cells to achieve the same voltage as Li-Ion. They cannot tolerate heat as well, support fewer discharge/charge cycles, and one of their biggest downsides is they take much longer to charge.

NiMH is generally preferred to NiCad but beyond that, Lithium, even with its significant faults, is the better option.

 

[kiriakost]

I also don't see the point of who our fathers are.

Because your own was not expert at hand made GSM battery manufacturing.
My father used initials from my mothers name and made it a brand.
This is hand made external bridge for 19 plates battery, I had also samples from the lead plate, but over the years they were lost.

Here you are

EarthX ETX-900 TSO 14V Aircraft Lithium Battery | Aircraft Spruce

EarthX ETX-900 TSO 14V Aircraft Lithium Battery The ETX900-TSO Certified Aircraft battery is only 5.4 pounds and can be used in an aircraft that has an alternator/generator with 80 amps output or less. This battery has electronic protection

www.aircraftspruce.com

While i was not an avi guy, I was a strucural mechanic for rotary wing craft. Lithium, especially lifepo4, can do every thing lead can. The only cell better is NiMH.

And Bill, car batts and the like are made from 2 volt cells to create a 6s battery

My reference was of use in aviation for public transport , currently anything with Lithium cells this is forbidden even to be transferred with air-plain.

 

[R-T-B]

I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.

Boeing says hello. Believe their latest airplanes use Lithium cells, and yes, have had some issues, but are definitely on it.

Personally I don't live in the upper atmosphere.

 

[tabascosauz]

I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.

Boeing says hello. Believe their latest airplanes use Lithium cells, and yes, have had some issues, but are definitely on it.
Personally I don't live in the upper atmosphere.

Dreamliner hasn't had further incidents in 7 years like the ANA battery fire and since revised regulations for Li-ion batteries, but I'm not sure if it's a good example of "adoption". A350 went to Ni-Cd, 77W/77L retrofitted with Ni-Cd, and new 777X use Ni-Cd as well. If you really want the mission-critical example, the newest Soryu SSK has Li-ion on board.

But quite honestly, there's no shortage of ways to find original-brand and similar/identical replacement batteries for your UPS, so this just seems like a weird experiment born out of boredom. Most of the glowing reviews for the batteries praise the light weight more than anything else; I doubt you'll be lugging your UPS to a campground every Saturday. Also, that "official" video in the workshop is hella mom-and-pop level rough for a large and reputable company lol

 

[R-T-B]

Dreamliner hasn't had further incidents in 7 years like the ANA battery fire and since revised regulations for Li-ion batteries, but I'm not sure if it's a good example of "adoption". A350 went to Ni-Cd, 77W/77L retrofitted with Ni-Cd, and new 777X use Ni-Cd as well. If you really want the mission-critical example, the Soryu SSKs have used Li-ion on board for more than a decade now.

But quite honestly, there's no shortage of ways to find original-brand and similar/identical replacement batteries for your UPS, so this just seems like a weird experiment born out of boredom. Most of the glowing reviews for the batteries praise the light weight more than anything else; I doubt you'll be lugging your UPS to a campground every Saturday. Also, that "official" video in the workshop is hella mom-and-pop level rough for a large and reputable company lol

My point was, almost every battery tech has a variant that can be applied to a role. That said, if Lithium-based batteries are really superior for the role of a UPS, you'd think the UPS manufacturers would be on board by now with a "cutting edge" new product. The only reason I can think of if you assume the claims are true is cost/manufacturing supply is not up to speed yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm tempted to try it myself just to see what it'd do, but it costs too much. And I'd never do it in a customers setup.

 

[kiriakost]

Personally I don't live in the upper atmosphere.

This is a good choice because upper atmosphere this is frozen.
Outside of the upper atmosphere the temperature (satellites) this gets to minus 150 Celsius.

I think that this topic it is now saturated regarding available options as batteries for a small UPS.
SUA 1000 XL , this made to use up to four external battery packs, it charger deliver 10A unrestricted / unregulated.
This translates that personally I can only use beefy car batteries as replacement, and I do that in the past two years.

APC RCB packs, are made by using made in India cells ( 4 years longevity at max), and their retail price this is unreasonable.

 

[Bill_Bright]

That said, if Lithium-based batteries are really superior for the role of a UPS, you'd think the UPS manufacturers would be on board by now with a "cutting edge" new product. The only reason I can think of if you assume the claims are true is cost/manufacturing supply is not up to speed yet.

^^^THIS^^^ There are UPS that use Li-Ion batteries but as you suggested, they are expensive - costing more than most home and small business consumers are willing to budget for. That said, such UPS can be cost effective over the long run as those batteries tend to have longer life spans. So if the initial purchase price can be tolerated, it may be worth considering buying an UPS that uses Li-Ion batteries.

Because your own was not expert at hand made GSM battery manufacturing.

So what? That does not make you an expert at anything. And sorry, but keep demonstrating a lack of expertise in battery technologies.

APC RCB packs, are made by using made in India cells ( 4 years longevity at max)

Homework, people! APC RCB packs are typically made with cells made in China. This image is a little blurred but you can easily see in the bottom right, just under the label, "Made in China".

I have peeled the APC labels off many cells over the years, for APC UPS used the US, Canada, Mexico, UK (England and Scotland) and Germany markets only to see this.

Same with Cyberpower, Tripp Lite, Eaton, Liebert, and a few off the wall brands and store brand UPS too. While some UPS made in India (a country I have not been in) for the Indian market may have cells made in India, it is wrong to assume all APC batteries use cells from India.

And while 3 - 4 years is typical for any SLA UPS battery, it really depends on how they are used, and the ambient environment they are operated in. Depending on use, some will and have lasted 5 or 6 years or even longer.

And FTR, while the temperatures in space where satellites orbit can easily be -150°C or colder, it should be noted those batteries and the electronics they support are operated in heated, temperature controlled compartments.

 

[Aquinus]

You know, beyond that there is another very important issue that I don't think has been addressed and that's the fire hazard the Li-Ion presents and its restrictions with regards to shipping. It's not feasible to make a UPS of equivalent capacity with Li-Ion batteries without having to deal with significant barriers to getting the product to the end user, at least here in the United States. So while it might be superior, the logistics are much more complex.

Want to ship something with Li-Ion batteries? You might be interested in reading the USPS' restrictions on shipping them.

USPS Packaging Instruction 9D | Postal Explorer

pe.usps.com

 

[Bill_Bright]

You know, beyond that there is another very important issue that I don't think has been addressed and that's the fire hazard the Li-Ion presents and its restrictions with regards to shipping.

Well, "fire" has been mentioned but I think you are right and it was not in the context of shipping. There are restrictions, especially when shipping in large quantities - though I suspect the manufacturers would deny there are any fire hazards with "their" Li-Ion batteries.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

Its OK, I have lead many a thread astray... life happens.

Impression I get is that LiFePO4 batteries can work in SLA based UPS units, but it might not be economical, and one needs to downrate the UPS to perhaps around half its power.

When Dakota Lithium say

12V 10Ah Deep Cycle LiFePO4 Battery

Dakota Lithium 12-volt 10Ah battery designed LiFePO4 technology. battery is for fishing, outdoor use warranty 11 years. lightweight & lasts 8 times longer.

dakotalithium.com

"Half the weight and twice the power of traditional lead batteries"

I think they mean twice the energy

 

[freeagent]

I have 2x 3S 5000 mah Lipo packs for my RC car.. serious business guys.. be careful with this stuff. I use a Hyperion balance charger with a power supply to manage them. Don’t want to see you burn your house down.

 

[kiriakost]

I have 2x 3S 5000 mah Lipo packs for my RC car.. serious business guys.. be careful with this stuff. I use a Hyperion balance charger with a power supply to manage them. Don’t want to see you burn your house down.

You are welcome ! Once I did came close to get for my self a Hyperion balance charger (300 Euro price range) , they was from the best.
While lithium cells does not cooperate with UPS circuit, for a month time, I did use lithium cells at my UPS, they were lithium bag type 10 AH its one cell.
They could handle 10A charge and even 15A discharge, but I was not satisfied by their total performance.
The hobbyists they should stay away from such experiments, because as you said they are not aware of all hidden hazards.

I think they mean twice the energy

Twice delivery of required cranking ampere for a motorcycle starter.
I did perform electrical current measurements at my HONDA 250cc (starter) and now I have recorded statistics.

 

[Aquinus]

I have 2x 3S 5000 mah Lipo packs for my RC car.. serious business guys.. be careful with this stuff. I use a Hyperion balance charger with a power supply to manage them. Don’t want to see you burn your house down.

This. Over charging a Li-Ion battery too quickly when it's mostly charged could cause a fire. The right type of charger is essential to safely using Li-Ion batteries.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

LiFePO4 seems safer than other lithium chemistries

Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org