Vintage hardware question!

[Frick]

You could just find any old PCI card and confirm the computer is actually working first. Afaik old AGP cards are more expensive and harder to find in decent condition than PCI cards.

Also, what power supply are you using? If it's from the same era you really want to look at those caps as well, they were also victims of the capacitor plauge.

 

[ppanickk]

You could just find any old PCI card and confirm the computer is actually working first. Afaik old AGP cards are more expensive and harder to find in decent condition than PCI cards.

Also, what power supply are you using? If it's from the same era you really want to look at those caps as well, they were also victims of the capacitor plauge.

Thanks. The power supply is a more recent FSP unit. It might not be the best for modern builds but should suffice for such an old platform.

 

[Calenhad]

Thanks. The power supply is a more recent FSP unit. It might not be the best for modern builds but should suffice for such an old platform.

Some older hardware want -5V, which a modern PSU does not have. No idea if that is the case here, but it is worth mentioning imho

 

[Bill_Bright]

Some older hardware want -5V

That was beyond "older" - more like "ancient" hardware when a very few "ISO" bus devices and some early floppy drives still used -5VDC. Beginning with ATX12V v1.3, the -5V requirement was removed from the standard. And note ATX12V 1.3 came out in 2003, nearly 22 years ago. Also note it was removed as a requirement because it wasn't, or at most, very rarely used for several years before that!

Folks need to remember that way back then, and even still today, computer power supplies were/are frequently used in other applications, other electronics equipment besides PCs. And/or they were (still are) used in proprietary electronics. For example, we've seen them being used in video arcade gaming consoles and PoS (point of sale; AKA "cash registers") systems. And in those systems, perhaps they needed -5VDC, perhaps for audio features or some other feature.

 

[ppanickk]

I was wondering if something like that will work and whether you recommend buying the specific card? Obviously buying from sites like eBay provides a 30 day warranty and the card is new (or at least it appears to be) so it might be less prone to breaking down in the near future.

 

[cal5582]

That was beyond "older" - more like "ancient" hardware when a very few "ISO" bus devices and some early floppy drives still used -5VDC. Beginning with ATX12V v1.3, the -5V requirement was removed from the standard. And note ATX12V 1.3 came out in 2003, nearly 22 years ago. Also note it was removed as a requirement because it wasn't, or at most, very rarely used for several years before that!

Folks need to remember that way back then, and even still today, computer power supplies were/are frequently used in other applications, other electronics equipment besides PCs. And/or they were (still are) used in proprietary electronics. For example, we've seen them being used in video arcade gaming consoles and PoS (point of sale; AKA "cash registers") systems. And in those systems, perhaps they needed -5VDC, perhaps for audio features or some other feature.

was it used on k6-era hardware? or can i just use a standard atx psu with that?

 

[eidairaman1]

was it used on k6-era hardware? or can i just use a standard atx psu with that?

I touched a k6 after 2003, i believe some psus still had -5v

 

[Bill_Bright]

was it used on k6-era hardware? or can i just use a standard atx psu with that?

Saying "k6-era" hardware is WAY too broad in terms of the length of time of that period as well as the range of hardware in that time period. You are talking 1000s of different hardware devices over several years. All I can say is according to the K-6 data sheet, the CPU did not require -5VDC.

i believe some psus still had -5v

Lots of PSUs still provided -5VDC - for several years. The issue is whether any devices that connect to it, needed it. And most ATX PCs did not. Even if they did, they could easily flip the polarity on their own.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Some older hardware want -5V, which a modern PSU does not have. No idea if that is the case here, but it is worth mentioning imho

That only applies to pre-Pentium/pre-ATX based systems. Anything Pentium and beyond does not require or use -5v/-12V for general consumer hardware.

I was wondering if something like that will work and whether you recommend buying the specific card? Obviously buying from sites like eBay provides a 30 day warranty and the card is new (or at least it appears to be) so it might be less prone to breaking down in the near future.

If you're looking for a testing card something like this would be much better;

Jaton 2MB Trident TGUI9440-1 KY2-JAX-TVGA94PCI PCI Video Card for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Jaton 2MB Trident TGUI9440-1 KY2-JAX-TVGA94PCI PCI Video Card at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

However, the following would actually work for you as a video card and at a better price;

ATI RADEON 7000 32MB AGP Low Profile Graphics Card Video Card Vintage Gaming | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ATI RADEON 7000 32MB AGP Low Profile Graphics Card Video Card Vintage Gaming at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

In the Geforce range;

Visiontek GeForce4 MX 420 64MB 128-bit SDR AGP 4x Graphics Card Vintage Gaming | eBay

For sale is one Visiontek GeForce4 MX 420 64MB 128-bit SDR AGP 4x graphics card in 100% working condition, all functions tested in Windows 98 SE.

www.ebay.com

Just have to know what to look for;

Radeon "AGP" 4X in Graphics/Video Cards for sale | eBay

www.ebay.com

Geforce "AGP" 4X in Graphics/Video Cards for sale | eBay

www.ebay.com

 

[eidairaman1]

That only applies to pre-Pentium/pre-ATX based systems. Anything Pentium and beyond does not require or use -5v/-12V for general consumer hardware.


If you're looking for a testing card something like this would be much better;

Jaton 2MB Trident TGUI9440-1 KY2-JAX-TVGA94PCI PCI Video Card for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Jaton 2MB Trident TGUI9440-1 KY2-JAX-TVGA94PCI PCI Video Card at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

However, the following would actually work for you as a video card and at a better price;

ATI RADEON 7000 32MB AGP Low Profile Graphics Card Video Card Vintage Gaming | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ATI RADEON 7000 32MB AGP Low Profile Graphics Card Video Card Vintage Gaming at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

In the Geforce range;

Visiontek GeForce4 MX 420 64MB 128-bit SDR AGP 4x Graphics Card Vintage Gaming | eBay

For sale is one Visiontek GeForce4 MX 420 64MB 128-bit SDR AGP 4x graphics card in 100% working condition, all functions tested in Windows 98 SE.

www.ebay.com

Just have to know what to look for;

Radeon "AGP" 4X in Graphics/Video Cards for sale | eBay

www.ebay.com

Geforce "AGP" 4X in Graphics/Video Cards for sale | eBay

www.ebay.com

There were AT slot 1 systems that were Pentium/P2, i believe even AGP was found on AT boards which still used the serial mouse and DIN keyboard, and the 2 white psu plugs.

Also the motherboard has a V1 slot which supports 1x definitely but is up to board makers to have 2x as an option.

AGP V1.0 is 1x/2x 3.3, V2.0 is 2X/4X 3.3-1.5, V3.0 is 4X/8X with 1.5-0.8 minimal signalling.

The op should get a pci card for now to verify if the system even posts

 

[lexluthermiester]

Also the motherboard has a V1 slot which supports 1x definitely but is up to board makers to have 2x as an option.

The manual that you linked to clearly states 2X AGP slot.

AGP V1.0 is 1x/2x 3.3, V2.0 is 2X/4X 3.3-1.5, V3.0 is 4X/8X with 1.5-0.8 minimal signalling.

Keep in mind most card makers integrated the multimode voltages for a wide range of compatibility.

The op should get a pci card for now to verify if the system even posts

I fully disagree. That would be asking the OP to ultimately buy two video cards. It's a waste of money. As long as they buy the right type of AGP card, if the board & CPU work, they will post all the same on an AGP card as they would a PCI.

 

[ppanickk]

Thanks for your responses. I will seek to obtain a compatible graphics card and let you know how it goes.

 

[eidairaman1]

The manual that you linked to clearly states 2X AGP slot.

Keep in mind most card makers integrated the multimode voltages for a wide range of compatibility.

I fully disagree. That would be asking the OP to ultimately buy two video cards. It's a waste of money. As long as they buy the right type of AGP card, if the board & CPU work, they will post all the same on an AGP card as they would a PCI.

V1.0 which should technically support up to 2x,

 

[karakarga]

I had one hell of a time desoldering capacitors from a Mac mother board; a temperature controlled Weller was not nearly enough.

View attachment 345465

For capacitor replacement, a 60 Watt soldering iron stays at the limit. Use a 75~80 Watt high quality ones like Ersa or a cheaper Pro'sKit. Many of unbranded ones like selling at amazon.com are too weak even if you buy one stating 100 Watt. To open leg holes again, use a 0.6 or 0.7 mm screw driver preferably, a pump may not be enough.

 

[Frick]

I fully disagree. That would be asking the OP to ultimately buy two video cards. It's a waste of money. As long as they buy the right type of AGP card, if the board & CPU work, they will post all the same on an AGP card as they would a PCI.

PCI cards are really handy to have though, and dirt cheap. "Decent" AGP cards from the era are harder to find than PCI cards, if the point of the system is to have like a nice computer instead of just a computer. OTOH it's a 440LX board, so that ship has sailed...

 

[lexluthermiester]

PCI cards are really handy to have though

For techies, sure. For everyone else, no so much.

"Decent" AGP cards from the era are harder to find than PCI cards

You didn't look at those links I posted above did you?

Just have to know what to look for;

Radeon "AGP" 4X in Graphics/Video Cards for sale | eBay

www.ebay.com

Geforce "AGP" 4X in Graphics/Video Cards for sale | eBay

www.ebay.com

Go look.

OTOH it's a 440LX board, so that ship has sailed...

Not at all. That board has great potential as a RetroWin9X based system. That board with a Celeron 400 is not a bad shout.

 

[Bill_Bright]

PCI cards are really handy to have though, and dirt cheap. "Decent" AGP cards from the era are harder to find than PCI cards

For techies, sure. For everyone else, no so much.

These points are becoming more and more moot as time marches on, if not there already.

Five+ years ago, I cleaned out my basement/shop store room of legacy, perfectly good, retired/salvaged "I might need it some day" parts. I figures, some day, I might build a legacy machine for fun. Or perhaps need one of these legacy parts for troubleshooting or repairs.

So I saved one large box of parts and took everything else out to the local electronics recycling center. I kept 2 PCI graphics cards and 2 AGP cards because, again, I might need it some day. I also keep a couple PCI sound cards, an AT PSU, PS/2 keyboards and mice, several sticks of every kind of obsolete RAM you can think of, floppy drives, ATA/EIDE HDs, and of course, a couple VGA and every other type cable ever made. I even saved 2 brand new, still sealed in the box 10/100Mbps NICs and a V.92 modem (that's a "dial-up" land-line modem for you kiddies out there).

Has "some day" ever come? Nope. Instead, AGP slots went away. PCI slots went say. Old RAM slots went away. ATA interfaces went away. On-board sound surpassed the quality of PCI sound cards. Even the cheapest of the cheap motherboards come with competent 1Gbps (1000Mbps) Ethernet and a nice complement of fast USB ports.

So, are PCI cards really handy to have on hand, even techies? Not really. Sure, there likely are a few "hobbyist" out there interested in legacy computers who might be interested in building one. But I guarantee, once they get it up and running, get tired of patting themselves on the back for getting it running, they will quickly become bored with the lackluster performance and head back to the here and now of current technologies.

 

[Shrek]

My problem with storing old, retired machines is the recycle cost, so I now take advantage of the Goodwill/Dell free recycling while it is still available.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

These points are becoming more and more moot as time marches on, if not there already.

Agree. Has been 0% diagnostics and 100% throw parts at it you don't have.

Made my suggestion very clear. Use speaker, get beeps and also, from more than just myself, board probably needs a total recap.

 

[Bill_Bright]

My problem with storing old, retired machines is the recycle cost

Check your local recycling center. Mine here pays us for the recycling value of the aluminum, steel and precious metals. I took a truck load out of old stuff and was paid $80. Yes, that was pennies on the dollar compared to the original purchase costs, put it paid for paint and carpet to turn my old store room into a spare bedroom - and made the other half happy too.

 

[lexluthermiester]

These points are becoming more and more moot as time marches on, if not there already.

Fully disagree. There is a huge difference in performance between a PCI card and an AGP card. It is not moot and not trivial. The OP should not be looking for a PCI card when they have an AGP port to use and it's very poor advice to suggest otherwise.

So, are PCI cards really handy to have on hand, even techies? Not really.

Now THAT is a fair point.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

OMG.

Here is attached manual which includes the beep codes.

All he needs is a diagnostic speaker for Fks sake. And probably a bunch of caps....

 

[Bill_Bright]

Fully disagree. There is a huge difference in performance between a PCI card and an AGP card.

Huh? Lex! Come on, dude! It seems you don't understand who or what you are disagreeing with here.

NO WHERE did I mention anything about performance. NO WHERE did I suggest using PCI instead of AGP.

My comment was clearly in response to Frick when he said,

PCI cards are really handy to have though, and dirt cheap. "Decent" AGP cards from the era are harder to find than PCI cards

Nothing there about performance either.

I said, and you quoted me,

These points are becoming more and more moot as time marches on, if not there already.

Again, nothing there about performance. I even went on to explain how time has made both of those technologies obsolete. I explained how modern motherboards have neither PCI or AGP slots so keeping a PCI card "handy" or trying to "find" an ACP card these days is becoming more and more moot - unless a hobbyist is trying to build a legacy machine for fun.

FTR, I 100% agree if one has a choice between AGP and PCI, then absolutely go with AGP. But then I never said or suggested otherwise.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Huh? Lex! Come on, dude! It seems you don't understand who or what you are disagreeing with here.

I might have misread or misunderstood your intended point. Frick's quote followed by mine seemed like an intended statement toward a different idea given that earlier discussions seemed aimed at the idea that a PCI card would be a better purchase. Thought you were latching into that part of the convo. I digress.

FTR, I 100% agree if one has a choice between AGP and PCI, then absolutely go with AGP. But then I never said or suggested otherwise.

Fair enough. Glad we agree!

 

[Frick]

You didn't look at those links I posted above did you?

Go look.

Not at all. That board has great potential as a RetroWin9X based system. That board with a Celeron 400 is not a bad shout.

Hence the "if the point of the system is to have like a nice computer instead of just a computer" qualifier. I wouldn't call a bottom of the barrel 440LX board with a Radeon 9250SE a "nice" computer, but it is a computer for sure.

I said, and you quoted me,

I didn't quote you.

Again the "if the point of the system is to have like a nice computer instead of just a computer" qualifier applies to these points. If the point is to get a working retro computer, sure buy a Geforce MX or whatever and call it a day, but if the point is a "nice" retro computer, finding a cool AGP card is gonna cost a lot more than literally any random PCI card.

For techies, sure. For everyone else, no so much.

Or someone messing around with ... I'm gonna say 10+ years old hardware (which is 2014!)), which is what OP is doing.

The OP should not be looking for a PCI card when they have an AGP port to use and it's very poor advice to suggest otherwise.

Just offering options, not gospel.