When ITX GPU?

[Yashyyyk]

https://www.reddit.com/r/sffpc/comments/12ne6d7

I want an ITX / low length/single fan RTX 4070 with 16GB VRAM. (Or rather something like the 1080Ti mini for the 4070Ti (Super/16GB VRAM))

It's ~200W just like the numerous ITX 1080/2070(S)/3060Ti, all ~1 "Liter" in size, so ~200 "Watt per Liter"

We should be getting better/more efficient/smaller cooler designs over time, not larger

What's so so sad is that individual people are modding their 4070/Tis to ~1 Liter. so so sad how companies with 100s of (paid) ppl don't want to / cannot make a product that already kinda used to exist 6-7 years ago but 1 unpaid passionate person can

Basically if you ignore watercooling (which kinda just moves the cooler elsewhere/most waterblocks aren't single slot) or modded cards like linked in the thread you can't get what existed years ago

Best case you buy one of those workstation cards (A4000 successors) for well over $1000 to get the same performance as you would for <$500, but not at even close to 1/2 the power consumption or size

I should add here that technically there is already a "<=175W 4080/4070", the Laptop 4090/4080 lol

Which in turn is kind of sad because there used to be a 200W 2080 desktop/laptop that didn't need this awful segmentation/naming/power limiting/scamming

More efficient GPUs to just run them at idiotic power levels and larger coolers at idiotic prices with idiotic memory setups with idiotic naming schemes/segmentation lol

AMD dGPUs are seemingly non existent in laptops, which is kinda funny because there's little reason to buy a non AMD CPU laptop other than supply/them existing (Intel = bad battery / bad iGPU until MTL, it's fine in larger laptops I guess). RDNA3 is significantly less efficient than RTX4xxx/Ada Lovelace anyways

I was hoping for an ITX 7600+/7700 but...

Maybe never mind since even the 7600 at 165W only has double fan GPUs ("at least" they're 200mm 2 slot)

So sad even the Powercolor 5700 ITX is more space efficient at 175mm 2 slot while 180W

I don't understand how over many years we get worse cooling/space efficiency

I am only asking for >200W/L like we had 6-7 years ago, surely you would think over that time we would get even better cooling performance like we do better computing performance

I can fit 2 GPUs in my case (more if watercooled or ITX lol) with minor modding, I don't require this, but it's sad to not get something we had many years ago, forget getting something better.

(The MSI Ventus 4070Ti Super is close, all the 4080/90 cards are too big for their power draw, or they require watercooling while already being big...sad. )

Watercooling exists but when the PCBs for the GPUs are >200mm to begin with, you can't get a <200mm card.
Or they make all 4070 PCB <200mm but then make no <200mm cards lol I don't understand (If you were going to watercool it would be 99% silly to watercool a 4070/Ti instead of a 4080/90).
There also needs to be waterblocks accordingly (idk not much demand for <200mm single slot waterblock lol)

Edit: Inno3D's 4070TiS is "good" at 230 W/L

 

[Assimilator]

Smaller form factor graphics cards made sense when multi-GPU was a thing, in order to fit multiple graphics cards in a single system. When mGPU died, the need for physically smaller graphics cards did too, and the industry moved on to making GPUs that were larger in order to make them quieter. I agree it's sad, but such is life.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

Smaller form factor graphics cards made sense when multi-GPU was a thing, in order to fit multiple graphics cards in a single system. When mGPU died, the need for physically smaller graphics cards did too, and the industry moved on to making GPUs that were larger in order to make them quieter. I agree it's sad, but such is life.

mGPU isn't dead.

 

[Assimilator]

mGPU isn't dead.

It is in consumer workloads.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

mGPU isn't dead.

This is correct to a point.
It's not advertised.
Only works with AMD and DX12.

You can mGPU any AMD cards of the same tier, same generation.

In my experience, you can mGpu in these fashions.

RX 6500 XT + RX 6500 XT
RX 6400 + RX 6500 XT
RX 6700 + RX 6700 XT

These I have done and can confirm
2x RX 6500 XT in mGPU will hit a TimeSpy score as high as 10,000pts.

 

[Assimilator]

This is correct to a point.
It's not advertised.
Only works with AMD and DX12.

You can mGPU any AMD cards of the same tier, same generation.

In my experience, you can mGpu in these fashions.

RX 6500 XT + RX 6500 XT
RX 6400 + RX 6500 XT
RX 6700 + RX 6700 XT

These I have done and can confirm
2x RX 6500 XT in mGPU will hit a TimeSpy score as high as 10,000pts.

Nobody care about synthetic benchmarks.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Nobody care about synthetic benchmarks.

Synthetic DX12 benchmark called "The gamers benchmark" is a fair representation of gaming.

And this also works for DX 12 games, not just benchmarks.

Which some games have their own benchmark built in on DX12 such as CyberPunk 2077.

I also doubt that "nobody cares" about synthetic benchmarks. I am sure to find your submissions in many benchmark threads just only in this very forum.

No?

 

[A Computer Guy]

If you can live with 4060 performance this is a thing...

Gigabyte Quietly Launches Low Profile GeForce RTX 4060 Graphics Card

Low profile graphics cards have always been something of a niche market, but they've found homes in many HTPC builds over the years, especially passively cooled cards. Now Gigabyte has launched a rather odd looking low profile NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 based graphics card that simply goes under...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[tabascosauz]

https://www.reddit.com/r/sffpc/comments/12ne6d7

I want an ITX / low length/single fan RTX 4070 with 16GB VRAM. (Or rather something like the 1080Ti mini for the 4070Ti (Super/16GB VRAM))

It's ~200W just like the numerous ITX 1080/2070(S)/3060Ti, all ~1 "Liter" in size, so ~200 "Watt per Liter"

We should be getting better/more efficient/smaller cooler designs over time, not larger

What's so so sad is that individual people are modding their 4070/Tis to ~1 Liter. so so sad how companies with 100s of (paid) ppl don't want to / cannot make a product that already kinda used to exist 6-7 years ago but 1 unpaid passionate person can

Basically if you ignore watercooling (which kinda just moves the cooler elsewhere/most waterblocks aren't single slot) or modded cards like linked in the thread you can't get what existed years ago

Best case you buy one of those workstation cards (A4000 successors) for well over $1000 to get the same performance as you would for <$500, but not at even close to 1/2 the power consumption or size

I should add here that technically there is already a "<=175W 4080/4070", the Laptop 4090/4080 lol

Which in turn is kind of sad because there used to be a 200W 2080 desktop/laptop that didn't need this awful segmentation/naming/power limiting/scamming

More efficient GPUs to just run them at idiotic power levels and larger coolers at idiotic prices with idiotic memory setups with idiotic naming schemes/segmentation lol

AMD dGPUs are seemingly non existent in laptops, which is kinda funny because there's little reason to buy a non AMD CPU laptop other than supply/them existing (Intel = bad battery / bad iGPU until MTL, it's fine in larger laptops I guess). RDNA3 is significantly less efficient than RTX4xxx/Ada Lovelace anyways

I was hoping for an ITX 7600+/7700 but...

Maybe never mind since even the 7600 at 165W only has double fan GPUs ("at least" they're 200mm 2 slot)

So sad even the Powercolor 5700 ITX is more space efficient at 175mm 2 slot while 180W

I don't understand how over many years we get worse cooling/space efficiency

I am only asking for >200W/L like we had 6-7 years ago, surely you would think over that time we would get even better cooling performance like we do better computing performance

I can fit 2 GPUs in my case (more if watercooled or ITX lol) with minor modding, I don't require this, but it's sad to not get something we had many years ago, forget getting something better.

(The MSI Ventus 4070Ti Super is close, all the 4080/90 cards are too big for their power draw, or they require watercooling while already being big...sad. )

Watercooling exists but when the PCBs for the GPUs are >200mm to begin with, you can't get a <200mm card.
Or they make all 4070 PCB <200mm but then make no <200mm cards lol I don't understand (If you were going to watercool it would be 99% silly to watercool a 4070/Ti instead of a 4080/90).
There also needs to be waterblocks accordingly (idk not much demand for <200mm single slot waterblock lol)

Edit: Inno3D's 4070TiS is "good" at 230 W/L

I get the sentiment (and also think that most if not all of the 40 series stack is too big, Asus is the worst offender), but I'm not sure this "W per L" comparison metric you made up makes much sense. You compare full size triple fan 4070 Tis against RTX 4000 SFF, but the low profile "Quadros" flat out suck ass in terms of thermal performance + are not quiet. Yes, as SFF enthusiasts, we like things to be compact but it's not the be-all-end-all. Most people on the market do not give a shit about "W per L" as long as they can fit the card, and it's hard to judge a cooler on its "W per L" efficiency alone and ignore its design and thermal/acoustic performance entirely.

On your reddit post, you linked a RTX A4000 SFF power mod that advertises 110-140W and says it delivers performance with 24/7 reliability. I don't dispute the performance or reliability (it's a professional reference PCB from Nvidia), but I know for a fact that there is zero way to make the A2000/A4000 blower's noise at tolerable levels @ 110-140W, for most people who are not diehard perf/L enthusiasts.

You can make a cooler as small as you want, and compensate with as much fan speed/cooling mods on card/cooling mods elsewhere as you want, but at the end of the day physics exists.

The PCB length is not that simple - the reason why most coolers perform well these days despite higher TGP is in part because short PCBs enabled flow-through coolers. Yes, most 4070 Tis are pretty big, but I would flat out refuse a tiny 4070 Ti that is only as big as the length of its PCB; that card is guaranteed to be either a screamer or chronically dependent on external cooling aids for acceptable performance (ducting, crazy case airflow, etc.). Of course, that also doesn't mean that 3-, 4-slot width GPUs are justified either, but that's a different issue.

 

[dgianstefani]

If you want single slot, watercool.

There is no other option unless you like entry level or professional gpus which aren't good gamers.

 

[Yashyyyk]

I get the sentiment (and also think that most if not all of the 40 series stack is too big, Asus is the worst offender), but I'm not sure this "W per L" comparison metric you made up makes much sense. You compare full size triple fan 4070 Tis against RTX 4000 SFF, but the low profile "Quadros" flat out suck ass in terms of thermal performance + are not quiet. Yes, as SFF enthusiasts, we like things to be compact but it's not the be-all-end-all. Most people on the market do not give a shit about "W per L" as long as they can fit the card, and it's hard to judge a cooler on its "W per L" efficiency alone and ignore its design and thermal/acoustic performance entirely.

On your reddit post, you linked a RTX A4000 SFF power mod that advertises 110-140W and says it delivers performance with 24/7 reliability. I don't dispute the performance or reliability (it's a professional reference PCB from Nvidia), but I know for a fact that there is zero way to make the A2000/A4000 blower's noise at tolerable levels @ 110-140W, for most people who are not diehard perf/L enthusiasts.

You can make a cooler as small as you want, and compensate with as much fan speed/cooling mods on card/cooling mods elsewhere as you want, but at the end of the day physics exists.

The PCB length is not that simple - the reason why most coolers perform well these days despite higher TGP is in part because short PCBs enabled flow-through coolers. Yes, most 4070 Tis are pretty big, but I would flat out refuse a tiny 4070 Ti that is only as big as the length of its PCB; that card is guaranteed to be either a screamer or chronically dependent on external cooling aids for acceptable performance (ducting, crazy case airflow, etc.). Of course, that also doesn't mean that 3-, 4-slot width GPUs are justified either, but that's a different issue.

I know, the first line of the reddit post says it doesn't have any noise/temperature testing. I have a Gigabyte ITX 1080 (<180mm length?) it is not very loud at 180W, mayybe when pushing more sustained over a long time it will eventually get louder. But ultimately you can always do any one or more of:

make the card like 10% longer (still under 200mm), (or you could even do like close to 3 slot but still <200mm, there are variations/hypotheticals listed in the reddit thread)
power limit,
undervolt, (this one esp.)
play with vsync/frame cap and minorly lower settings (kind of the same as power limiting but inverse)

The Galax 1070 Katana despite having a ">300 W/L" rating is loud and thermal throttles/hot / or is borderline there. But who cares, cut power by 30% and you still beat all/95% of the trash getting released.

Likewise with the Dell OEM/AW 4090 Gamers Nexus showed (who said it was a "worse" card because it was louder and like a few % weaker than some oversized Strix card lool) or the weird AFOX 4090

Yeah the modding isn't perfect, but it's still individual unpaid ppl outdoing companies who already did it 7 years ago. The A4000 is kinda like a 3060Ti at 2/3 the power so I think there's some room there?

Pretty sure all the 4070 PCBs are like 180mm or so, I think there are only a handful (2/3?) of 4070Ti PCBs that are nearly as short. But again, doesn't need to be as short as the PCB, just needs to match/exceed what we had 7years ago (1080Ti mini @ 250W, sure the 4070Ti is like 285W, fine make it 10-15% bigger)

What's ironic about Asus doing this is they have basically the only 13" gaming laptops, the Flow X13/Z13, I don't think anything comes close to the X13 (maybe Surface Book if M$ rereleased but obscene prices)

Here is another weird way to look at it:

Normalizing for price and size (there are wayy more variables, but hear me out), the Flow X13 "sucks" because you're paying same/more than the G14 4080 for 2/3 the performance and only like a 20% size reduction

But the 4090 variant is also kinda ??? because you pay 50% more for 20% more performance (same size). (you get a better screen (that kills the battery more loll), more VRAM, but ignoring that)

People will say 4090 (laptop version) in 14" laptop not good even though it gets close to 90% of its full performance. and with some modding and a vBIOS you can do more.

or likewise with the 4070 (laptop version) in the Flow X13 even though it's probably like 80% of its full performance

If you want single slot, watercool.

There is no other option unless you like entry level or professional gpus which aren't good gamers.

7yo Galax 1070 Katana: am I a joke to you?

It's not like there are widely available single slot waterblocks anyways, made a point of this at the end

The Galax 1070 Katana despite having a ">300 W/L" rating is loud and thermal throttles / or is borderline there. But who cares, cut power by 30% and you still beat all/95% of the trash getting released

(There's also a single slot Galax/Colorful 4060Ti)

 

[nguyen]

well there is the Gigabyte LP 4060

 

[N/A]

ITX GPUs always made appearance too late into the product's life. Mid cycle is not justified the wait. And it has more to do with saving costs. And let's not gloss over the elephant in the room. Its noisy as hell.

 

[ExcuseMeWtf]

Meanwhile iGPU in Ryzens 8000 might compete with GTX 1650. The space for low-power dGPUs seems to be shrinking and shrinking.

 

[Yashyyyk]

ITX GPUs always made appearance too late into the product's life. Mid cycle is not justified the wait. And it has more to do with saving costs. And let's not gloss over the elephant in the room. Its noisy as hell.

I have a Gigabyte ITX GTX 1080 (~180mm). It is not loud (maybe if you run it overclocked for a while it can be).

And even if it is, ultimately you can always do any one or more of:

make the card like 10% longer (still under 200mm), (or you could even do like close to 3 slot but still <200mm, there are variations/hypotheticals listed in the reddit thread)
power limit,
undervolt, (this one esp.)
play with vsync/frame cap and minorly lower settings (kind of the same as power limiting but inverse)

The Galax 1070 Katana despite having a ">300 W/L" rating is loud and thermal throttles/hot / or is borderline there. But who cares, cut power by 30% and you still beat all/95% of the trash getting released.

Likewise with the Dell OEM/AW 4090 Gamers Nexus showed (who said it was a "worse" card because it was louder and like a few % weaker than some oversized Strix card lool) or the weird AFOX 4090