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Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

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Running hydrogen through an ICE will not result in better efficiency.

It ran 24h, despite mechanical issues on their first try they did complete. Can you do that with an electric? Almost no. Electric will not replace needs for long range hauls and long term usage.

Even for 24h Le Mans electric racer they used two 600kW chargers for some. 1.2MW... f*** that who talks about sanity using electric and expensive fuel tanks. Also the batteries meant to last only one race there.

I am not that hasty to crown EV as more efficient.
 
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Range is a good point, but electric still wins on efficiency.

One solution to electric range is a standardized battery that one swaps out at the station.
 
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Range is a good point, but electric still wins on efficiency.

Have you ordered your Tesla with the Chinese made batteries? Are we ready for mass adaptation and need of batteries? Not even mentioning need of recycling them afterwards? Nope... I can't see efficiency here. There are no parts for new cars, as they are no spare parts to fix the older ones. I kinda dunno if I would use a refurbished battery pack in my car having some random china cells.


PS.

Funny the second suggested headline there too.

  • Hyundai is fully embracing hydrogen-based technology.
 
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Range is a good point, but electric still wins on efficiency.

One solution to electric range is a standardized battery that one swaps out at the station.

Once upon a time, California promised a tax credit to companies who solved the electric range issue. Then, a company claimed to have solved it. They demoed on stage a battery-swap, collected the tax credit, and then never actually developed the technology. Because environmentalists in California are utterly crap at actually pressing companies to you know, deliver what they promise. They just let these companies take government money on promises without actually checking to see if said development / R&D is going on.

Battery swap might work. But it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth because it just shows how stupid citizens are. "Battery Swaps" are a perfect case study into how to effectively steal money from naive environmentalists.

The company demoed Battery Swap in 2013. Its been 8 years. Its not coming. Don't pretend its an option, because the whole "battery swap" argument from the start was a grifting operation to take money from the government. Nothing more.

You gotta keep a keen eye, remember that these for-profit companies will lie and steal from you. Even if they say they're "for the environment", they really are "for more money". They'll take money and then ignore the environmental problems entirely. Don't fall for the hype. Don't pretend that battery swap was anything more than just a money grabbing operation.

Seawater electrolysis results in hydrogen and chlorine gas, not hydrogen and oxygen. So that's not as safe as you might think it is. You can do it, but I hope you have a plan for all of that chlorine.

Chlorine is one of the biggest industries right now. Its fundamental to the creation of bleaches (you know, chlorine bleach) used in laundry like everywhere around the country. That bleach is used in paper-mills (whitening paper), sewage treatment (you know, how to get poop out of your water and make it drinkable again), etc. etc. Chlorine's uses are endless.

Chlorine production is a big business (https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states/market-research-reports/chlorine-manufacturing-industry/)... an industry by itself. Extra "free" chlorine from a process isn't a problem, its a benefit. A positive. The market can and will buy that from you. Its a very valuable resource.

---------

What is a problem from an environmental point of view is brine-waste, which is the problem in any sea-water treatment plant. Brine is highly toxic and useless: there's no real use of brine-water as far as I'm aware of. So you're kinda correct but you talked about the wrong chemical / waste product.

That being said: the heaps of sulfuric acid needed to extract Lithium, and the child-miners who are exploring mines for that Cobalt (an important component of Li-Ion batteries) means that Li-Ion is in fact, one of the dirtiest industries in the planet. No joke.
 
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Battery swaps should have worked, it's stupid they dont.

Here in aus they do LPG gas bottles for BBQ's at our 'gas stations' - and you swap the old in, pay, walk out with a new one.

The problem with batteries is swapping a good one, for a lower quality or worn out one so no one would ever do that... but it COULD be possible for a secondary 'range extender' universal style option if someone mandated a universal standard for that sort of thing.

Like all cars manufactured after X date must have space in the trunk with these battery terminals at X voltage, so you can clip on a range extender like you were jump starting a regular car. Hot swap THOSE bitches. (And if cars arent charging them, they shouldnt have the heat issues)
 
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Once upon a time, California promised a tax credit to companies who solved the electric range issue. Then, a company claimed to have solved it. They demoed on stage a battery-swap, collected the tax credit, and then never actually developed the technology. Because environmentalists in California are utterly crap at actually pressing companies to you know, deliver what they promise. They just let these companies take government money on promises without actually checking to see if said development / R&D is going on.

Battery swap might work. But it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth because it just shows how stupid citizens are. "Battery Swaps" are a perfect case study into how to effectively steal money from naive environmentalists.

The company demoed Battery Swap in 2013. Its been 8 years. Its not coming. Don't pretend its an option, because the whole "battery swap" argument from the start was a grifting operation to take money from the government. Nothing more.

You gotta keep a keen eye, remember that these for-profit companies will lie and steal from you. Even if they say they're "for the environment", they really are "for more money". They'll take money and then ignore the environmental problems entirely. Don't fall for the hype. Don't pretend that battery swap was anything more than just a money grabbing operation.

They gave money for a solution that is utterly trivial?
 
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Battery swaps should have worked, it's stupid they dont.

When you consider that the battery pack of a Tesla costs well over $10,000 (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/38915/it-costs-nearly-16000-to-replace-a-tesla-model-3-battery-pack), it makes sense that battery swaps don't work.

Battery swaps might work if you own a fleet. Like rental cars for example, swapping batteries among your own cars is maybe a decent idea. Except at the $16,000+ price point to replace batteries (they're literally the most expensive part of an electric car), it makes more sense to just buy spare cars rather than spare batteries.

The problem with batteries is swapping a good one, for a lower quality or worn out one so no one would ever do that... but it COULD be possible for a secondary 'range extender' universal style option if someone mandated a universal standard for that sort of thing.

Hmmm, maybe we should use a standardized chemical that stores a lot of energy, and one that can be transferred easily with a hose. A chemical that's lighter and carries more energy than the rest of the battery pack. Different "grades" can be made, like 87, 91, and 93 for example, depending on the specific chemical reaction their cars are designed for.

And maybe in the future, we can think of other chemicals, like Hydrogen, that might work out cleaner than that other chemical.

They gave money for a solution that is utterly trivial?

"Trivial" ?? The battery pack literally weighs a ton and costs over $10,000. The battery pack is not only the most expensive piece of equipment in an electric car, it is also the heaviest. In the case of Tesla (the car company I talked about before), the battery pack is literally wielded to the floor.

You can't move that thing, not by the current design. Its wielded there as a safety issue (low center of gravity to prevent the car from tipping over).

Not only that, the battery pack is highly explosive ( https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/ppqqwg ). The battery packs need heavy shields to make sure that rocks and/or dirt that kick up under it won't light the whole thing on fire. Even then, those shields can be penetrated at high speeds if you jump the curb like this video demonstrates.

I'm not seeing exactly how a battery swap is feasible, not by any current EV's design. Especially when you consider the low-center of gravity people want to have (so you want to place those packs under the floor), but still have safety issues (you don't want the car to bottom out and light on fire as it strikes something, like that video from r/IdiotsInCars).

So you have a 1-ton, $10,000+ object that's explosive and requires shielding that you want to swap around with strangers. Along with all the other car things to figure out (center of gravity, suspension, balance, weight, etc. etc.). Cool. Good luck figuring out the tools and equipment to actually accomplish that task.

To be fair, I don't lift engines, but moving car-parts that weigh 1-ton around just won't happen in 5 minutes, or 30-minutes if you take the precautions necessary. No mechanic will do an engine lift job in 30 minutes, and engines are lighter than these battery packs. Its pretty dangerous, not only to the person but also to the car to move such weights around.

Battery swap is one of those things where it sounds like it might work. But the minute you think about the mechanics of the swap (cost, economics, tool design, safety, etc. etc.) it makes no sense at all.
 
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I would absolutely support the research on hydro cars. No questions. I have been seeing stuff about them since the early 2000s.

please see my new thread here: hydrogen is dead on arrival now, so is traditional EV, and so is hyperloop.

 
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If one thinks that governments give a damn about public health, climate change, or any other high-swung topic, one's badly mistaken. They only care about money. They will support the technology that is adopted by the wealthiest companies. Tesla is full of cash (where from, I don't know) that they're happy to dump on developing the charging infrastructure for their dirty lithium cars. Climate change is only a scapegoat to sell all this crap to the masses.
 
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it makes no sense at all.

Voice of sanity here. The problem really are the batteries. Worst tech we currently have around.

Basically EV fits for people for occasional need. Like short trips to store or job. To be fair most of those people should be spanked, taxed why you don't use a bicycle for those tasks. Yes the social status and habits, culture come in to place what environmental issues. The fact that working out could improve health also does not count.

For professional use ie job... EV does not work for most due to long charging time and short range, forcing faster charging will reduce total charge cycles, there is no workaround for that. Elon does not openly say that and promising more supercharge speeds, but basic physics are even for any lithium cell, and he is interested on selling more. With faster charging you are reducing even more the life span of the EV. Most of the the things he does is questionable really.

Logistics around servicing batteries is hard, battery swapping idea is surreal, actually due to safety they will be even more rugged hard to take out with future gens. I saw some videos where some cuckoos fixed batteries with simply cutting out the shorted cell. I took a breath on seeing how wrong it was and how dangerous it was.


The conclusion is, that the average car service doing cars have no clue what they are doing really. This dude showed his special few penny equipment, that consists from popular aliexpress modules. He does show a 18650 cell instead of 21700 as another token of great presentation and does not care explaining how different they are even having similar form. He carries open unprotected blocks on the table. If something falls, like screwdriver, screw, the block itself etc on the group, it may bend it will flash and explode as everything is hot wired there. For an average dude it may look convincing.

They broke cell balancing, the group will have greater asymmetric load, wear and risk of damage, worst case is fire. You cannot put a new cell there also, you have to match them. Some aftermarket smartarses will simply take a apart one cell group for parts and put a used cell there, that would actually be least stupid... but still... They break the water sealing too probably. I would not trust that thing. Newer models are more filled with epoxy sealants, making even harder to take apart.

Practical side of maintaining the batteries at such scale is a costly nightmare and is dangerous. You have to replace the block with a new one. Always. The old one must be utilized into bits for recycling. You have to have a special trained personnel for that. Honestly they need to wear a bomb suit when disassembling some corroded cars, especially if it has had a crash in the past.

Efficient? I cannot see this tech efficient if you look at long term usage, servicing. Also it is not that green also considering how those batteries are produced too.

This what you should do with bad batteries.

 
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For professional use ie job... EV does not work for most due to long charging time and short range,

hmm? Aptera only costs $44 grand and has a 1000 mile EV range, and if you don't drive it everyday can be recharged with its solar panels built in to it. or see thread here:

 
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hmm? Aptera only costs $44 grand and has a 1000 mile EV range, and if you don't drive it everyday can be recharged with its solar panels built in to it. or see thread here:


Use taxi, ends up cheaper for most companies needing to carry only people...

There are no place for tools, goods etc needs to do your daily job. Nor kids and your wife. Office plankton can use commutes and bicycles, don't overcomplicate things. This thing doesn't disregard any of concerns EV has, it still resides batteries.
 

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Use taxi, ends up cheaper for most companies needing to carry only people...

There are no place for tools, goods etc needs to do your daily job. Nor kids and your wife. Office plankton can use commutes and bicycles, don't overcomplicate things. This thing doesn't disregard any of concerns EV has, it still resides batteries.

I disagree with all of this. Also, you can sleep in this, it has a tent upgrade kit for $600 addon, can travel the country and charge your car 40 miles a day solar when not plugged can, can sleep a 6ft large man and a large dog, and has room for storage on top of that... so yes I disagree completely with all of that.

I commute 50 mins to work each day... this is very ideal for me... will save me a ton on gas, and unlike a traditional EV, I won't be at the mercy of local utilities companies some of whom have been janking around EV customers.

This is freedom.
 
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hmm? Aptera only costs $44 grand and has a 1000 mile EV range, and if you don't drive it everyday can be recharged with its solar panels built in to it. or see thread here:

Why does it look like a Tesla inside? That is, an iPad glued to a kitchen counter? :wtf: Also, why do electric cars have to be ugly?
 
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The Mirai is not a long-term viable car. On the outside it's as large as a 7-Series BMW but because of the hydrogen tanks, it has internal space comparable to a small compact. The floor is also pretty high, so it's not a very comfortable car to be in.

I'm against hydrogen cars, for the reason Elon Musk is against it: you have to use electricity to generate hydrogen that you can then use in your car. Why not store it(the electricity) directly?
And electrolysis to generate hydrogen from water is not an economically viable process. You don't get a lot of hydrogen for the amount of electricity used. Again, just store the electricity.
As for storage, the pressure required is too high to store in tanks, so it has to be stored in a fuel cell - similar to how a sponge holds water. If you were wondering, this is (I think) how the Mirai stores the hydrogen. Problem is, fuel cells have terrible energy density.

Plus, to generate hydrogen without electrolysis is to use methane, which is not an environmentally friendly solution. Methane is a less stable greenhouse gas than CO2(which is very stable), but it is still a problem as it takes decades to decompose in the atmosphere.
 
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I'm against hydrogen cars, for the reason Elon Musk is against it: you have to use electricity to generate hydrogen that you can then use in your car. Why not store it(the electricity) directly?
I'm pretty sure the rationale is because fuel cells are more efficient at storing energy than conventional batteries.
 
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We have been through this before. Hydrogen powered automobiles make no sense except in highly limited and specific situations.

The reason why the Toyota Mirai exists is because the Japan government started a program to encourage hydrogen vehicles. That's because Japan imports ALL of its petroleum. It's in their interest to find an alternative (LNG, hydrogen, etc.). The Mirai is marketed in two places: Japan and California.

The biggest issue with hydrogen as a fuel is distribution.

Hydrogen is plausible in Japan because of its extremely high density and massively efficient distribution system. Hydrogen would be more suitable for fleet operations like Takkyubin delivery trucks, taxicabs, government fleets, etc.

Hydrogen makes zero sense for private passenger automobiles.

As we covered earlier, for an electric charging station you did a ditch, drop in a conduit, some conductors, and you're good to go. At home you might want to set up a dedicated 220V circuit in your garage. To set up hydrogen refueling stations you need to real estate for refueling stations, install expensive storage tanks, and move everything around in tanker trucks. You can't refuel your hydrogen vehicle at home.

Here in California the hydrogen refueling stations are infrequent, mostly clustered around major metropolitan areas and are frequently out of fuel. How keen is Joe Consumer to drive 30 miles to refuel their hydrogen vehicle because the one three miles away is out of stock?

If you want to drive from Crescent City (near the Oregon border) to Encino (near the Mexican border) in a hydrogen fuel vehicle, you basically have to carefully plot your itinerary based on hydrogen fueling stations and leave extra in the tank just in case a given refueling station is out of fuel. That means more stops.

Hell, even LNG vehicles did not take off because of fuel availability issues.

And yes, there are various groups working on replacements to the Li-ion battery technology. I understand that manganese-magnesium is one battery technology that looks promising; I'm sure there are others.

It is shortsighted to expect that battery technology will remain static. It hasn't. There's a reason why we don't use NiCad batteries anymore. It's called progress -- something some people on tech forums don't seem to recognize.

My guess is that I will end up reposting this entire reply in another five pages of discussion because the same points will come up again.

We have been through this many times before in this thread.
 
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I'm pretty sure the rationale is because fuel cells are more efficient at storing energy than conventional batteries.



no, they're not.

Consumer fuel Cell efficiencies top-out at around 50%,, and in the end of the day, both store the energy into as buffer battery and use that electricity to drive the wheels.

The delivery overhead of the electric network vastly outpaces the combined production costs of clean H2 and transportation losses of H2 over pipelines; there's also a much higher cost to refurbishing an older H2 vehicle that has reaches end-of-life for the fuel cell (5000h) plus the tanks (Mirai has three of these at 10k each, replaced every 15 years.)

Even for trains, you're more likely to see segmented portion of tracks to become electrified before we ever see any wide distribution of H2 as a fuel (and if you can carry enough electric range in-between break in the network, , then what do you need all that Fuel Cell H2 infrastructure for?)

They already make hybrid buses with catenarys over the road, and once they can come with enough electric range to bridge those gaps, , then the gas motor goes away.
 
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I'm against hydrogen cars, for the reason Elon Musk is against it: you have to use electricity to generate hydrogen that you can then use in your car. Why not store it(the electricity) directly?

By that logic, we should be using flywheels to move cars. Your car wants locomotion. Why not use flywheels to store locomotion and move it around? No one wants electricity when they're in a car, they want to move from pointA to pointB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

See? You can literally store locomotion energy directly. Why bother converting it between forms? /sarcasm

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Meanwhile, in the real world, we see that energy storage takes many different forms. Flywheels are high-power and low-energy. Meaning we can probably use flywheels to accelerate / decelerate very quickly and safely, but only for a few seconds. Flywheels "explode" in power, and also "absorb" huge amounts of power in short periods of time. We convert chemical energy into flywheels when using manual car transmissions (aka: RPMs are the flywheel, providing the energy needed to move the car forward as we drop-the-clutch and explode out the gate). So really, flywheels are a part of typical ICE design energy storage.

Electricity is high-weight (Li-ion may be the lightest battery today... but they still weigh a lot compared to other storage mechanisms) and medium-low energy. Not as low-energy as a flywheel, but there's a lot of people who want more range than what current EVs offer.

Chemical energy, be it methane, hydrogen, or gasoline, is in fact the best. High-power, high-energy, very simple machines sourced from cheap iron/steel rather than expensive (and environmentally damaging) Lithium or Cobalt and copper (copper isn't environmentally damaging, but its still a lot more expensive than steel). Li-ion simply has too much weight, too much environmental costs, too little energy density.
 
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Chemical energy, be it methane, hydrogen, or gasoline, is in fact the best. High-power, high-energy, very simple machines sourced from cheap iron/steel rather than expensive (and environmentally damaging) Lithium or Cobalt and copper (copper isn't environmentally damaging, but its still a lot more expensive than steel). Li-ion simply has too much weight, too much environmental costs, too little energy density.

Not in H2 form.
The density is so low for compressed H2, the curb weight of a Mirai and a Tesla Model 3 is almost identical.

They can't put out nearly the same amount of peak energy of BEVs running that Fuel Cell stack (fine for a commuter car,, but terrible for larger vehicles that have to climb hills)

Toyota Mirai's Fuel Cell tops-out at 172 hp delivery.
 
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I'm pretty sure the rationale is because fuel cells are more efficient at storing energy than conventional batteries.

Don't think fuel cells are storage devices.
 
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Not in H2 form. The density is so low for compressed H2, the curb weight of a Mirai and a Tesla Model 3 is almost identical.
H2 is extremely light. Its so light that you can build airships that literally float on air with it.

H2 takes up a lot of volume, which is actually the problem. You must compress H2 down to a respectable size. Compression requires strong and thick steel, and that weighs the whole device down in general. But that's all you need: "just" steel to hold H2 in a compressed form factor. Transferring H2 into or out of the canister can be done safely, cheaply, effectively. No need for expensive or environmentally unfriendly Lithium or Cobalt either: simple steel gets the job done.

I'd rather us build a million vehicles out of steel, than a million vehicles out of Lithium and Cobalt. Its clear which of the materials is the more environmentally friendly design. We don't in fact need to strip mind the earth with sulfuric acid to pull iron out of the ground.

They can't put out nearly the same amount of peak energy of BEVs running that Fuel Cell stack (fine for a commuter car,, but terrible for larger vehicles that have to climb hills)

Toyota Mirai's Fuel Cell tops-out at 172 hp delivery.

I'm being a bit pedantic but... Horsepower is a unit of power, not energy. In any case, Toyota always makes weak and feeble cars.


374 HP Hydrogen engine incoming from BMW. Power isn't an issue at all.
 
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I think alot of the arguments that go into the different fuel sources is what trade offs do each get. Hydrogen has been one I followed with great interest mostly because it seems to solve alot of problems while being cleaner. However as many people have already pointed out in this thread, the storage of Hydrogen still presents an issue whether it be for filling up the vehicle, or the storage inside the vehicle. Because of the pressures, its a question of in a serious accident what happens if the tank ruptures. Gas tanks and Batteries can explode/catch fire in a wreck as well but with Hydrogen under so much pressure it becomes more of a safety concern.

Think about propane for instance, we have already had propane/gas hybrid vehicles and propane powered small vehicles like forklifts. However even the road going vehicles (At least around me) are limited in where they travel and at what speed (Plus they normally are in trucks that have the tanks at the front of the bed and are smaller than the truck to avoid severe issues).

So I think they are going to need to find a cost effective solution to where they can make them safe and powerful before we can even think about the infrastructure problem next.
 
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As we covered earlier, for an electric charging station you did a ditch, drop in a conduit, some conductors, and you're good to go

A Tesla Supercharger pushes 150 kW of power per car. An 8-bay Supercharger uses more power than 1000 typical US Homes. That's a lot of copper and infrastructure, and load on the grid.

In contrast: a typical gas station is a steel container embedded into concrete. A truck comes by every now and then and drops off the fuel. Once again: we're using concrete and steel (very very cheap materials) for construction. Hydrogen changes the fuel but not the nature. We know how to store gas inside of steel containers embedded into the ground. Its not very difficult.

In contrast: copper is very expensive. SiC MOSFETs are very very expensive and we're currently in a shortage of them. Routing 1.2 Megawatts of power per charging station requires tons of SiC MOSFETs, Copper, safety, and probably requires special electrical lines. This stuff won't work on 240V lines.

At home you might want to set up a dedicated 220V circuit in your garage

A L2 charger takes hours to fill up a car. 220V are fine for home-uses where you charge overnight. But 220V is NOT a solution to any form of public charging. Its just too slow. Faster L3 chargers are extremely expensive to maintain and operate.
 
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