Why has no one made a JRPG like this?

[Kusimeka]

I've made the same thread on gamespot forums, though i really want as many people to offer their opinions and thoughts into this, so i'll make it here too since i want to hear you guys express your opinions on it too

I know that recently JRPG's have been in decline, and they are not as popular as they once were (seriously is this any surprise, considering most of them suck?)

What is it with all JRPG devs making the same looking game? I mean i look at the last 4 JRPGS to come out and they all look the SAME. Anime styled, now i have no problems with this and i love the tales series but seriously we need some variety. Anime styled JRPG's just don't seem to sell well in US/EU. So i've been trying to think why are JRPG's in decline this gen? And the conclusion i came to is this:

They all look the same, they have no variety and there are no "mature" styled JRPG's. I've grown up playing JRPG's they are my favourite genre, but i'm tired of the anime styled versions and i want more JRPG's like FFVII (darker storyline) everyone is complaining that JRPG's are a dying genre, but yet there has not been any good JRPG's to test if this is true. FF13 was far different from any previous entry in the series, so this can't even test that.

So i was thinking, why has no JRPG dev took a gamble? Why has no JRPG dev thought, okay lets make a mature JRPG with blood, a dark storyline and some cool stuff like some finishing moves to enemies/bosses? If they actually start trying different things, maybe they'd be surprised with the result. Is there even any JRPG's with blood in it? That's the type of JRPG i'd like to see, it'd be something different and fresh. Who else is fed up of voice actors who sound like they are 13?

 

[Frick]

First, I find it kinda hard to focus when the text is all bold.

Also, Anachronox have most things you're looking for.

I think the JRPG genre is failing because it feels like a dated concept. Kinda the same reason devs are abandoning the D&D style games.

Also again, blood, violence and gore/sex does not equal a mature game. It's rather the opposite imo. A good example would be The Longest Journey.

 

[The Witcher]

With all my respect to the Japanese people.....in my opinion the problem is that the Japanese artists/devs in general like to do whatever they want to do, I mean they don't like being forced to make something just because of the demand. So, it's gonna be really hard to convince them to do something different than what they want to do.

I mean look at FF VII for example, people have been demanding a sequel or at least a remake since years, every time we are given new excuses. The obvious reason is that Square Enix devs have different plans, I mean they know that they will make huge profit if they at least made a FF VII remake but still they won't do it for reasons they won't disclose.

 

[Flibolito]

Agreed a proper remake/sequel would easily fetch $60 from my wallet.

 

[Kusimeka]

First, I find it kinda hard to focus when the text is all bold.

Also, Anachronox have most things you're looking for.

I think the JRPG genre is failing because it feels like a dated concept. Kinda the same reason devs are abandoning the D&D style games.

Also again, blood, violence and gore/sex does not equal a mature game. It's rather the opposite imo. A good example would be The Longest Journey.

Sorry, i edited out the bold i thought it would make it easier to read, i did not intend to make it harder

I don't think you understood what i was trying to say, or maybe i just didn't explain it correctly. I don't agree that blood and sex make a mature game either (well they do, just not the way i mean) and i'm not saying these things are a requirement for a mature game. Though if you hit someone with a sword, you do expect to see blood and not sparks. I'm not saying it has to go over the top, even infinity blade style would be okay (if you've played that, no blood but the finishing moves are quite violent)

It's not really that it's a dated concept, cause Elder Scrolls is more popular than ever, and that's been around for years (and games similar to it) it's just Elder Scrolls has done new things, and added to what made it succesfull in the first place.

It seems like JRPG devs don't actually know what to do, i mean what the hell is FF13 anyway? The devs are constantly saying they think JRPG's have to be different now, but why? Everyone is asking for a game like FF7, not asking for something completely different. If you look at past games you'll actually see all the ideas to making a hugely succesfull JRPG are out there. Chrono trigger style battles, FFVII etc.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Lather rinse repeat

The issue of a dying genre isn't due to a lack of diversity and mature content, neither of these issues represent a worthwhile experience.

I posit that there are four nails which are being driven into the coffin of the JRPG. There is a low barrier to entry (and thus a low minimum standard), level grinding is dying in favor of acchievements, the biggest name in JRGPs for the west is going to crap, and nostalgia prevents reimagination.

I consider the RPG maker program a sign that standards are virtually non-existant. Once any idiot with a license could develop their own game, there was a propensity for the real gems being washed away in the tide of mediocre crap that has the tendency to be released. This generally spares consoles, but the development of JRPGs in the west is virtually non-existant. So, either flooded beneath crap or few that exist. I really can't decide which is worse.

Level grinding takes time. I can attest that it is a boon for the hardcore crowd, but the majority of the market is not hardcore gamers. Being forced to grind kills the fun for the average person. The introduction of acchievements makes people desire instant gratification, which leveling for 5 hours is hard pressed to equal. Simply put, hours spent leveling in the game no longer equate to fun for the average consumer.

I will keep this point brief. Square Enix has produced a massive turd in FFXIII. There are more issues than I can state here, but I will cover the highlights. You lose 2/3rds of the game to AI control, there are artificial level caps, and 90% of the in-game items are functionally worthless from the word go. If the biggest name in JRPGs (barring Dragon Quest) is this screwed up, the genre is likely going to need some major retooling.

Finally, nostalgia is a huge issue. I replayed FVII on the PC, and it is not as good as people seem to remember. The original game has a decent story, excelent (for the time) graphics, good build-up, but a rushed and obviously half done ending. Level grinding is required at times, and the enemy locations are poorly chosen and less diverse than a Scandanavian country. If there was ever a remake, they could learn a lot from some of the fan remakes (enemy diversity, pacing issues, expansion of areas). On the other hand, fans would cry foul because it was not a faithful remake. Screwed if you do, screwed if you don't. There is no way to win.

Summing everything into one idea: JRPGs are dying because they have exceeded their fun to difficulty ratio for the average consumer, and nobody will allow the formula to be tweaked. A lack of change stagnates a genre. JRPGs have not fundamentally changed in years, and are likely to remain a constant until someone takes them behind the shed and puts them out of their misery.

I will remember them fondly; besides nostalgia, there is little left to suck me into a JRPG.

 

[Frick]

Sorry, i edited out the bold i thought it would make it easier to read, i did not intend to make it harder

I don't think you understood what i was trying to say, or maybe i just didn't explain it correctly. I don't agree that blood and sex make a mature game either (well they do, just not the way i mean) and i'm not saying these things are a requirement for a mature game. Though if you hit someone with a sword, you do expect to see blood and not sparks. I'm not saying it has to go over the top, even infinity blade style would be okay (if you've played that, no blood but the finishing moves are quite violent)

It's not really that it's a dated concept, cause Elder Scrolls is more popular than ever, and that's been around for years (and games similar to it) it's just Elder Scrolls has done new things, and added to what made it succesfull in the first place.

It seems like JRPG devs don't actually know what to do, i mean what the hell is FF13 anyway? The devs are constantly saying they think JRPG's have to be different now, but why? Everyone is asking for a game like FF7, not asking for something completely different. If you look at past games you'll actually see all the ideas to making a hugely succesfull JRPG are out there. Chrono trigger style battles, FFVII etc.

I totally understood what you were saying about blood, and I don't agree one bit. It is meaningless to me.

Anyway, how is Elder Scrolls a JRPG? I did not mean RPGs were dying, but the JRPG subgenre.

Summing everything into one idea: JRPGs are dying because they have exceeded their fun to difficulty ratio for the average consumer, and nobody will allow the formula to be tweaked. A lack of change stagnates a genre. JRPGs have not fundamentally changed in years, and are likely to remain a constant until someone takes them behind the shed and puts them out of their misery.

I will remember them fondly; besides nostalgia, there is little left to suck me into a JRPG.

Sums up my feelings pretty accurate there. Excellent post.

 

[Jansku07]

So i was thinking, why has no JRPG dev took a gamble? Why has no JRPG dev thought, okay lets make a mature JRPG with blood, a dark storyline and some cool stuff like some finishing moves to enemies/bosses? If they actually start trying different things, maybe they'd be surprised with the result. Is there even any JRPG's with blood in it? That's the type of JRPG i'd like to see, it'd be something different and fresh. Who else is fed up of voice actors who sound like they are 13?

Never heard of Demon's Souls? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls

 

[Kusimeka]

The issue of a dying genre isn't due to a lack of diversity and mature content, neither of these issues represent a worthwhile experience.

I posit that there are four nails which are being driven into the coffin of the JRPG. There is a low barrier to entry (and thus a low minimum standard), level grinding is dying in favor of acchievements, the biggest name in JRGPs for the west is going to crap, and nostalgia prevents reimagination.

I consider the RPG maker program a sign that standards are virtually non-existant. Once any idiot with a license could develop their own game, there was a propensity for the real gems being washed away in the tide of mediocre crap that has the tendency to be released. This generally spares consoles, but the development of JRPGs in the west is virtually non-existant. So, either flooded beneath crap or few that exist. I really can't decide which is worse.

Level grinding takes time. I can attest that it is a boon for the hardcore crowd, but the majority of the market is not hardcore gamers. Being forced to grind kills the fun for the average person. The introduction of acchievements makes people desire instant gratification, which leveling for 5 hours is hard pressed to equal. Simply put, hours spent leveling in the game no longer equate to fun for the average consumer.

I will keep this point brief. Square Enix has produced a massive turd in FFXIII. There are more issues than I can state here, but I will cover the highlights. You lose 2/3rds of the game to AI control, there are artificial level caps, and 90% of the in-game items are functionally worthless from the word go. If the biggest name in JRPGs (barring Dragon Quest) is this screwed up, the genre is likely going to need some major retooling.

Finally, nostalgia is a huge issue. I replayed FVII on the PC, and it is not as good as people seem to remember. The original game has a decent story, excelent (for the time) graphics, good build-up, but a rushed and obviously half done ending. Level grinding is required at times, and the enemy locations are poorly chosen and less diverse than a Scandanavian country. If there was ever a remake, they could learn a lot from some of the fan remakes (enemy diversity, pacing issues, expansion of areas). On the other hand, fans would cry foul because it was not a faithful remake. Screwed if you do, screwed if you don't. There is no way to win.

Summing everything into one idea: JRPGs are dying because they have exceeded their fun to difficulty ratio for the average consumer, and nobody will allow the formula to be tweaked. A lack of change stagnates a genre. JRPGs have not fundamentally changed in years, and are likely to remain a constant until someone takes them behind the shed and puts them out of their misery.

I will remember them fondly; besides nostalgia, there is little left to suck me into a JRPG.

Great post. I enjoyed reading it, and pretty much agree with everything you have said. May i ask if you have played Chrono Trigger? I went back and played that game recently, so i'm comparing it to the games these days (not as in game quality, but on how much i enjoyed it) and that game was just so fun to play, and was enjoyable the whole way through. The combat system was just so smooth and refreshing, the storyline was not exactly deep but was defintley interesting.

Now assuming you have played it, what do you think of it compared to other JRPGS? Most JRPGS that come out seem to follow the style of the old FF's, where as i personally feel that they would get more success if they followed Chrono Trigger.

Chrono trigger to me was brilliant, and i just really do not understand why even when Square made Chrono Cross, they changed it so much when it was really onto something great and IMO was going to change JRPG's for the better (removed random battles, more interesting combat system, and skills for every character)

I totally understood what you were saying about blood, and I don't agree one bit. It is meaningless to me.

Anyway, how is Elder Scrolls a JRPG? I did not mean RPGs were dying, but the JRPG subgenre.

Okay it's meaningless to you, but to me and many others it can add to immersion cause it feels more real. To me it really takes me out of the immersion when a character has just had a 10 foot sword shoved through him, and there is no blood whatsoever. It's not a huge issue, but i defintley feel as a older gamer it would add to the game rather than take away from it.

I didn't say Elder Scrolls was a JRPG, what i meant was that the concept of it is also old, however they have just improved it along the years and made it more accessible. This has made it more popular than ever, this is what JRPG devs should do rather than stick with the same old formula over and over again. There are old formulas out there which worked much better for JRPG's (Chrono Trigger being a prime example) and they don't steal ideas from that.

 

[Deleted member 3]

May i ask if you have played Chrono Trigger? I went back and played that game

You are aware that Chrono Trigger is a game right? You can't go back in time to play the game. You could in the game though... sounds a bit like inception.

 

[Kusimeka]

You are aware that Chrono Trigger is a game right? You can't go back in time to play the game. You could in the game though... sounds a bit like inception.

I mean that i played it recently, not that i actually went back in time

Never heard of Demon's Souls? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls

Yeah Demon's Souls was AMAZING. I platted it (so that shows how much time i put into that game) it was very refreshing and a great game. Now that's a JRPG dev i respect, and i will be buying Dark Soul's day one. I suppose with JRPG i am actually referring to the general style (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest) though

 

[erixx]

JRPG? Hmmm!! ?!?!

 

[Deleted member 3]

I mean that i played it recently, not that i actually went back in time

Ah yes, of course. I got confused when I read Chrono Trigger I guess.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Great post. I enjoyed reading it, and pretty much agree with everything you have said. May i ask if you have played Chrono Trigger? I went back and played that game recently, so i'm comparing it to the games these days (not as in game quality, but on how much i enjoyed it) and that game was just so fun to play, and was enjoyable the whole way through. The combat system was just so smooth and refreshing, the storyline was not exactly deep but was defintley interesting.

Now assuming you have played it, what do you think of it compared to other JRPGS? Most JRPGS that come out seem to follow the style of the old FF's, where as i personally feel that they would get more success if they followed Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Trigger was awesome. The game pushed in every direction that it should have, while remaining true to its roots. I can't say enough about how that game really deserved more praise than Final Fantasy.

That gushing praise aside, it needs to be said that every awesome reimagining comes at the price of dozens of dishwater bland rip-offs. Pretty hard to find Chrono Trigger where I live, even a few months after it first hit store shelves. I don't disagree with the potential that is there, but the potential tends to be lost in the bland sauce.

I look forward to the day that FF rip-offs die in the cradle, because the budget department sees them as unprofitable. Once the dishwater is drained, only truly great games wil be able to cross the marketting department without being gutted.

Consider this for a second; in a hypothetical world Madden 20XX or Fifa 20XX bombed two years in a row. Developers would be forced to have original ideas and thoughts to justify a new game, forcing the genre to grow. Adding a dozen new faces, and giving the graphics a slight upgrade, would not cut it.


Sumarizing, I believe a little selective genocide among JRPGs might be good. The true gems like Chrono Trigger get to really shine, while the blandness is burned in a cleansing fire of marketting dollars. In the short term, this means the JRPG is on life support; in the long term this means there will be a resurgence of awesome JRPGs that have evolved to better fit the times. I imagine a time where Chrono Trigger is the grand father of JRPGs, and Final Fantasy finally understands that a video game is meant to be played.

*Sigh* I can always dream...

 

[kurosagi01]

Some of the most recent JRPG i am enjoying right now is Gods Eater Burst on the PSP,which by far isn't a typical grinder and actually long game,if you don't skim play it and enjoy hardcore slashing monsters in various missions,collecting materials to upgrade equipments or craft items etc etc.
Game is much more fun than Monster Hunter just for fact it has an actual storyline while monster hunter is just never ending missions.

Have you seen Dot.Hack GU on PS2 aswell,another great JRPG game which has anime elements but game graphics itself isn't animated,excellent story and gameplay is fantastic.
Another game come to my mind is the Persona Series.
Golden Sun is one game on GBA quite similar looks and gameplay to Chrono Trigger.

 

[Disparia]

I drink nostalgia like tiger blood! FF7 is always as good as the first time

So really, the problem is me. I've been passing on most of these 'new' jRPG games in favor of replaying a SNES or PS1 classic because of too much "freshness". (Though I'll look into a couple that have been mentioned in this thread that I haven't looked at before.)