Why no one has the right to be angry at AMD with regards to AM4

[Decryptor009]

I bought a 2600x with an ASRock Pro 4 ATX about 10 days before we found out b450's won't support AMD 4000 series cpu's back when MSI was still telling us that a b450 was going to work.
AMD never clarified at that point and they should have.
I'm not mad about it. The 2660x on this b450 performs fantastically and I'm happy I bought it.
However....
I went out and bought a x570 so I could still have an upgrade path.
If I hadn't been able to do that...I still wouldn't be mad

We mirror each other except i never bought an x570 board, though i may well do and grab a 3700X down the line, mean while though the 2600X is still a very good choice.

 

[xrror]

TL;DR
It still sucks though, I'd have thought at the very least 4xx boards would be supported because most makers (except MSI) had enough sense to not shortchange that badly that gen.

It IS shit if the only reason that pre 5xx boards can't support upcoming chips is due to rom size. Especially since NOT everyone was MSI and kept fitting 16mb roms until they started losing sales because they couldn't support anything newer than 2000 series.

Nevermind that there are other 3xx and 4xx boards with ... wait for it... a bigger than 16mb eeprom.

Plus even if you stay with the 16mb limitation it's not like AMD couldn't remove the block of code for the old piledriver APU's. I'm no bios programmer but surely the overlap between the old Piledriver and Ryzen code blocks might not be so much that the legacy block couldn't be removed? But hey I'll give benefit of a doubt and maybe you can't free "enough" space that way... although since there won't be anything past 4000 gen it would still be a worthwhile project for them - they'll never have to support anything newer on AM4! So if they did make a 4000 firmware in 16mb they'd be set until AM4 is retired.

No what this more feels like is AMD throwing a bone to mobo makers (and themselves - no need to validate all those old boards now!) to both push some new chipsets and try and leverage PCIe gen4 as a marketing bullet (which might be relevant 3 years after they make the last AM4 board) . That and there is still a bad taste of some older boards (mostly 3xx) that still don't even run 2000/3000 Ryzen correctly (can't handle ram speeds over 3000) and maybe AMD is trying to keep mobo makers happy since they'll need all the help they can get when AM5 releases.* *the fight will begin for real whenever Intel is able to actually get their next gen core/process together into a real product. The later that is - the better for AMD.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

We mirror each other except i never bought an x570 board, though i may well do and grab a 3700X down the line, mean while though the 2600X is still a very good choice.

TBH...I also ended up getting a 3600 as well.
i wasn't going to but I was very curious about NVMe PCI-E 4.0 x4 ...But a 2600x doesn't have PCI-E 4.0...and then Newegg sent out an eBlast with $10 off a 3600.

 

[Decryptor009]

TBH...I also ended up getting a 3600 as well.
i wasn't going to but I was very curious about NVMe PCI-E 4.0 x4 ...But a 2600x doesn't have PCI-E 4.0...and then Newegg sent out an eBlast with $10 off a 3600.

PCI-E 4 is supported on my Aorus Elite in the bios, i am not sure if it is full support (Supports Ryzen 3000 from the get - go), but it is in the bios regardless... as an option. I had to manually set PCI-E 3.0 with this system with the 5700-XT because it would cause intermittent crashes in any game i ran.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

PCI-E 4 is supported on my Aorus Elite in the bios, i am not sure if it is full support (Supports Ryzen 3000 from the get - go), but it is in the bios regardless... as an option. I had to manually set PCI-E 3.0 with this system with the 5700-XT because it would cause intermittent crashes in any game i ran.

I have yet to have an Intel board come with retarded default settings (not counting voltage) but with few exceptions every AMD board I've had has.
I get it.. the card is 4.0...it should have the proper setting set by the cpu regardless

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

This issue shouldn't be just AM4 users people seem to forget trx40 has different pin out from x399 for Threadripper 1900 series and 2900 seres. Threadripper 3000 series only with in Trx40_boards. Considering those people spent far more for a board they should've complained just as much, but they didn't. They can't upgrade at all to 3000 series on x399. Having far less users overall means complaints would matter more imho. Then there is also the argument that they can afford it too.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

This issue shouldn't be just AM4 users people seem to forget trx40 has different pin out from x399 for Threadripper 1900 series and 2900 seres. Threadripper 3000 series only with in Trx40_boards. Considering those people spent far more for a board they should've complained just as much, but they didn't. They can't upgrade at all to 3000 series on x399. Having far less users overall means complaints would matter more imho. Then there is also the argument that they can afford it too.

Now I think that's a stretch they definitely did not say TR would retain socket's or compatibility afaik.

 

[Athlonite]

Personally I wouldn't care if Asus removed compatibility for Zen1 and 2 from my Strix X470F-Gaming mobo's BIOS inorder to give me Zen 3 and 4 compatibility

 

[maxfly]

How many people would have bothered with a 400 series mb if amd had released the 550 mbs closer to the 570s?

 

[Hyderz]

so 300,400,500 series chipset support up to zen 2? 300,400 chipset wont support zen 3?
only 500 and up chipset support zen 3? i can understand not supporting 300 series but
400 series owners yikes... but what is the main reason? socket limitations? or generate more sales for mb vendors?

 

[Totally]

so 300,400,500 series chipset support up to zen 2? 300,400 chipset wont support zen 3?
only 500 and up chipset support zen 3? i can understand not supporting 300 series but
400 series owners yikes... but what is the main reason? socket limitations? or generate more sales for mb vendors?

They just got shortchanges 1 generation, not really yikes considering we don't know the difference between 3000 and 4000 is enough to warrant an upgrade, and even then will the 4000 present enough value to justify upgrading compared to 3000 series pricing then.

 

[JAB Creations]

AMD as an underdog is an old beat-up argument. It's a big-ass multi-billion dollar corporation which has been around for over 50 years. Most of their recent mishaps boil down to mismanagement or misadvertising. Don't get me wrong - they are still doing a great job in terms of hardware, but whenever something goes wrong in other areas - they seem to be unable to get their shit together.

Being a "big-ass multi-billion dollar corporation" doesn't negate the underdog status and they literally still are. We enthusiasts are only a small portion of the market and Intel and Nvidia are still have largely disproportionate market shares. I have learned very strikingly that people have a very high tendency to not comprehend the positions of others. For a lot of us $1,000 might be a lot of money and then we remember how life comes along and says "nope!" and how it's not a lot of money. People might think that having a billion in the bank or being worth many billions of dollars is a lot of money though when their version of life comes along and says, "nope!" we're not talking about the inability of an individual to take their family on a much needed family vacation or to take care of a pressing health issue. In this regards specific to AMD we're talking about technology in which if we ended up with a monopoly would be exceptionally difficult to return to even a duopoly. The vast majority of qualified businesses would not find themselves making a profit to justify the investments to enter in to the market and we'd all be stuck blowing $600 on Celerons.

Don't get me wrong for a moment, they're out to make profit (just like I am in my own way) though we still need competition to keep society healthy. It's the individual's responsibility to release their place in the greater scheme of things otherwise we end up with a monopolized corrupted society and we've already got the second half.

No single rain drop thinks it is responsible for the flood.

 

[Countryside]

What people need to understand is how little this has to do with the hardware and how much it has do to with marketing this is purely a business decision.

If you look at my system i cant buy an b550 mobo beacause of my cpu is not supported and i will not buy a new cpu because there is no reason for it, its a pefectly working 2 year old cpu so my only option is to buy an expensive x570 board.

 

[Shou Miko]

What @tabascosauz said in the start of this thread AMD promissed 3 years support and they delievered only sad part is they talked about X370/B350 and I don't think they did about the B450 but it's a shame but I understand when AMD choose to go forward with things you can't keep old things around even when the B550 might be the last socket AM4 board and Zen3 uses something new.

Look at Intel been using LGA1151 for a long time but using their tick tock system it's like people blindly accept they can only do 2 generations and they have to buy new CPU and board at least AMD kept AM4 around since Feb 2017 and that's over 3years and I feel that's like an age for hardware.

 

[Bronan]

Uh, it's not. What on earth are you developing that can make do with that at the barebones level? Windows has GIGABYTES of libraries supporting your little 2 meg exe, for perspective. For a baremetal example, Linux's kernel is around 100-200MB's in most distros.

lol for a bios that is alot of space .... just learn to read properly

Back on topic they held their initial promise and gave the users of the x370 almost 3 years no need for upgrade to a newer motherboard.
That AMD does want to make a new motherboard for the upcoming new release might have a reason they do not want to reveal yet.
But i actually decided to go for AMD when this newer boards are widely available, so i am totally not angry about them changing to a new socket because there can be legit reasons todo so.
And if it does not have any legit reason i still would not whine but if AMD does start to act like Intel and start selling new boards and sockets by every release then i will become angry.
Because that is what Intel is doing, if you look at the chinese market you see motherboards supporting cpu which according to Intel never could have been run on that same motherboard.
Hell they even make boards which runs dual cpu's on a total wrong sounding motherboard its almost a miracle that it actually works.
Each time Intel launches with every new release a new chipset which in my view actually could have been used by the 4 previous releases as well.
So fact is Intel does do the Intel on every generation and forces to buy a new set even if you do not need it at all.
These new releases are acutally not needing a new socket at all but guess what they simply play with the pins again by that AGAIN force you to buy a new motherboard as well.
So again there is absolute no need for a new design motherboard at all for the last 4 released generations but ofcourse that is not intels law.
The law says every new release must also sell a new chipset and preferred also alot of other chips to make even more profit.
Even though there is actually almost nothing changed besides a small processor speed update.

AMD can and should allow vendors to make UEFIs as they wish to. If they do so, most vendors will make UEFIs that support Zen2-3 CPUs and APUs on X470/B450 boards that would allow anyone with a Zen-Zen+ CPU or APU to upgrade. There wouldn't be any issue with the UEFI size then me thinks. I agree to not make UEFIs that have all AGESA codes for all Zen gen CPU and APU if that is not possible due to rom size but not allowing vendors to make UEFIs for their boards is another thing entirely that makes AMD look VERY bad towards their customers. And it will be only their fault. I hope they will change mind on that as they did with Zen2 and X470/B450 that didn't have support officially but was done by the vendors in the end.

You are making a massive mistake here vendors can not adopt anything new in a bios without the knowledge of AMD.
Do you really think they are capable to bypass changes to a socket and or do have the knowledge to change the hardware so that the need for a new socket disappears
Time will tell if there is a good reason why AMD chooses todo this.
Some chinese developers do that but allways on older models who are almost obsolete for modern usage.

 

[Vayra86]

Being a "big-ass multi-billion dollar corporation" doesn't negate the underdog status and they literally still are. We enthusiasts are only a small portion of the market and Intel and Nvidia are still have largely disproportionate market shares. I have learned very strikingly that people have a very high tendency to not comprehend the positions of others. For a lot of us $1,000 might be a lot of money and then we remember how life comes along and says "nope!" and how it's not a lot of money. People might think that having a billion in the bank or being worth many billions of dollars is a lot of money though when their version of life comes along and says, "nope!" we're not talking about the inability of an individual to take their family on a much needed family vacation or to take care of a pressing health issue. In this regards specific to AMD we're talking about technology in which if we ended up with a monopoly would be exceptionally difficult to return to even a duopoly. The vast majority of qualified businesses would not find themselves making a profit to justify the investments to enter in to the market and we'd all be stuck blowing $600 on Celerons.

Don't get me wrong for a moment, they're out to make profit (just like I am in my own way) though we still need competition to keep society healthy. It's the individual's responsibility to release their place in the greater scheme of things otherwise we end up with a monopolized corrupted society and we've already got the second half.

No single rain drop thinks it is responsible for the flood.

Your topic is a good reminder and wake up call. But at the same time, lots of problems AMD has around releases are not ever about money or being an underdog at all.

It is always, eternally, every single god damn time about COMMUNICATION.

They suck massively at it, plans change last minute or things get axed with no advance notice. And then, to make matters worse, they pile on with some driver and BIOS confusion to solidify the idea things are not perfect at all. That is fine, one time. A second time can be forgiven. But with AMD, its company culture.

I'm not fixed to any camp, blue green red, and if yellow comes around I'll take a long look too. But I don't reward companies that perform below par or drop the ball with my hard earned cash. I did already build several Zen rigs. I would now, since the latest release also recommend these CPUs for general gaming over Intel. Things do change, but they do it on MY pace based on MY view of a company. Not because the market somehow demands it for 'balance' or 'to do my part'. In that sense, I'm not touching AMD GPUs with a ten foot pole yet, completely unreliable. If they can produce a few good generations with no crappy events and drivers, I'll reconsider. Hopefully they get the memo with RDNA2, because the first iteration was again pretty shaky.

What people need to understand is how little this has to do with the hardware and how much it has do to with marketing this is purely a business decision.

If you look at my system i cant buy an b550 mobo beacause of my cpu is not supported and i will not buy a new cpu because there is no reason for it, its a pefectly working 2 year old cpu so my only option is to buy an expensive x570 board.

Its always about business and anyone thinking otherwise is deluded. Intel is no different in that regard.

 

[londiste]

Each time Intel launches with every new release a new chipset which in my view actually could have been used by the 4 previous releases as well.
So fact is Intel does do the Intel on every generation and forces to buy a new set even if you do not need it at all.
These new releases are acutally not needing a new socket at all but guess what they simply play with the pins again by that AGAIN force you to buy a new motherboard as well.
So again there is absolute no need for a new design motherboard at all for the last 4 released generations but ofcourse that is not intels law.
The law says every new release must also sell a new chipset and preferred also alot of other chips to make even more profit.
Even though there is actually almost nothing changed besides a small processor speed update.

There are things to be said and opinions to be had about how Intel deals with motherboards and chipsets but ignoring the facts is not a good way to go at it.

Intel changes socket every 2 generations and that is usually 2 years:
2011 - s1155 - Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge
2013 - s1150 - Haswell/Broadwell
2015 - s1151 - Skylake/Kaby Lake
2017 - s1151v2 - Coffee Lake/Coffee Lake Refresh
2020 - s1200 - Comet Lake/Rocket Lake

There are changes in Haswell's s1150 (primarily FIVR) that would make socket not very compatible with SandyBridge/IvyBridge's s1155. This was reversed for Skylake with a similar effect.

This has advantages from both Intel and motherboard manufacturers perspective. Everyone knows what to expect. Intel keeps the two CPU generations close enough that issues from socket mid-lifetime release are smaller (not without problems if you remember PCIe 2.0 > PCIe 3.0 for example). Manufacturers know they need to rebuild BIOS halfway through board lifetime and that the socket has a defined lifetime. All of this is very convenient for all the involved parties as they know exactly what to expect. And this includes users.

The usual situation broke down in 2017 and continues to be broken because Intel does not have new CPUs. They have new generation with more cores and more recently also vulnerability fixes, but the new generation has been waiting for 10nm ever since. This makes it true that technically s1151 and s1151v2 could support the same CPUs and probably s1200 as well. If I were a motherboard manufacturer though, I would be very careful with wanting to do that - because of power requirements mostly. Skylake and Kaby Lake were fine with TDPs, anything after that and power consumption blew up in the high end (which is what you need to keep in mind when releasing a motherboard). s1200 boards make it very obvious with quite powerful VRMs on all boards so far.

One of Intel's faults there is perception - keeping the s1151 as socket. They could have done s1152 and the outcry would have been much smaller. Yes, enthusiast crowd would still scream at them but all the problems with choosing the compatible CPU/motherboard combination in all the forums and questions etc would not be common as they are now.

That 4 generations (or maybe 6) could be on one socket/platform is pretty unique and only because the architecture used in the CPU generations is almost exactly the same.
Does anyone really believe Intel does it to sell chipsets? This sounds pretty bullshit argument. They make far more profit on any CPU than a chipset.

Now, supporting an old platform over a long time has downsides.
- Cost. You are building BIOSes for chipsets that are old. For each of them you are building the BIOS for a larger number of CPUs. This adds complexity and testing must be hell.
- You need to keep the compatibility in mind. You cannot make technical changes that would break the platform in any way. You cannot improve some things because you need to keep everything working.
- No doubt motherboard makers are not very happy. On one hand, they cannot sell new motherboards. On the other, they need to support old motherboards much longer. Both add cost to manufacturer.
Even if you do this and keep a platform for long, some things will end up slightly broken at one point. There will be compatibility breaks somewhere in the middle of platform lifetime. Think about how older platforms addressed these issues, for example AM2/AM2+, AM3/AM3+, LGA775 or Socket 370.

 

[IceShroom]

2013 - s1150 - Haswell/Broadwell

Correction : LGA1150 only supported 1 generation. Broadwell desktop only came to some limited market.

 

[Shou Miko]

Correction : LGA1150 only supported 1 generation. Broadwell desktop only came to some limited market.

It was still released that made it 2 generations no matter if it wasn't world wide or not you cannot denied that.

 

[IceShroom]

It was still released that made it 2 generations no matter if it wasn't world wide or not you cannot denied that.

Tenchically they supported it, but with only 2 SKU and limited release it makes Broadwell nonexistence.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Changing sockets does not bother me a bit. That's because the odds are, some other technology has come along or made significant advancements since the board came out. For example, why would I spend a bunch of money on the latest and greatest CPU if the board only supported (just for illustrative purposes) USB 2.0? Or DDR3? Or some other advancement in the state-of-the-art, or some new technology that became standard since that board was made?

So if I am buying the latest and greatest CPU, I know I will want "all" the other latest and greatest technologies motherboard makers offer too. And I will save my pennies until I can do that. Point being, I'm going to be buying a new motherboard (and most likely, RAM) anyways. So why care about the socket? If the budget is limited (as it always is), I might keep my current graphics card, case, drives, cooler and PSU, then upgrade them as the budget allows.

If I really want to upgrade just the CPU on a current build, odds are there is a more powerful CPU in a supported family I can buy and use - for now. Then have it hold me over until I can afford a new CPU/motherboard/RAM bundle that will really move me closer to that cutting edge I'm seeking.

 

[londiste]

This would actually be an interesting question for the poll on TPU main page - how often do you upgrade your CPU and/or motherboard?

 

[John Naylor]

Recently there was an uproar over AMD not being able to support all socket AM4 processors on all AM4 motherboards, namely the upcoming 4000 series. I have learned that perspective is critical to advancing in life and I feel that a lot of people completely lack that perspective. Before I continue I would like to clarify that while I have been cheering AMD since I realized many things I am not a blind-fanboy and am willing to criticize any business of any industry when it's appropriate.

No doubt some were hoping to be able to use new CPus in older boards. But one of those reasons is fanboism itself. Most of the post i see trashing Intel have standard list of issues they say makes Intel better than AMD. These include:

a) More cores
b) Smaller die size
c) Intel makes you change MoBos with new CPU releases.

 

[freeagent]

I get a kick out of the uproar lol. Users are like, but you promised! AMD is like, well, we need more money. You have the moneys we needs. Users are like, waahh! Intel is like, mwaha we have cookies.

 

[Decryptor009]

I get a kick out of the uproar lol. Users are like, but you promised! AMD is like, well, we need more money. You have the moneys we needs. Users are like, waahh! Intel is like, mwaha we have cookies.

Business first, though fairness is something that should be considered when dealing with consumers.
Consumers are an issue too because all they want to do is consummmme and never think of the issues that has in and of it's self.