Sunday, June 16th 2013

Microsoft Pulls a Fast One with E3 Xbox One Demos

With its focus on on-demand entertainment at the expense of gaming prowess, Xbox One didn't impress gamers at E3, who instead flocked to Amazon to pre-order their PlayStation 4, which not only features faster hardware, that could translate to better visuals in gaming, but is also a whole 20 percent cheaper ($499 vs. $399). At E3, Microsoft tried to pull a fast one. It set up several gaming stations allegedly powered by Xbox One, where gamers could play unreleased Xbox One games using the new Xbox One controller, just to get a feel of how rich and smooth the graphics really are. Some of them fell for it, others didn't. When these peeping toms didn't find the screens wired to an Xbox One main unit, they yanked open the cupboards below, only to find a full-fledged Windows 7 gaming PC.

How full-fledged you ask? Keen observers across the forumscape made out a rig powered by an Intel LGA2011 processor, which could at least be a Core i7-3820, and an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 700 series reference design graphics card, which could at least be a GeForce GTX 770. Such a system would obviously give you a rich and smooth gaming experience.

Microsoft Xbox One features a custom-designed application processor by AMD, which combines eight 64-bit x86 cores based on the "Jaguar" micro-architecture, with a GPU that packs 768 Graphics CoreNext stream processors, and a unified quad-channel DDR3-2133 memory interface, holding 8 GB of memory. This memory is cushioned by a large 32 MB SRAM cache on-die. In comparison, Sony's PlayStation 4 features a custom-designed application processor, too, which features the same CPU portion, but a bigger graphics core with 1,152 stream processors, and a 256-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface, holding 8 GB of RAM, which can be used as both main and graphics memory. On top of all that, the PlayStation 4 is $100 cheaper, at $399.Source: Gaming Blend. Many Thanks to Fluffmeister for the tip.
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161 Comments on Microsoft Pulls a Fast One with E3 Xbox One Demos

#1
MatTheCat II
by: newtekie1
A good deal worse? An X1950XT easily matched the Xbox360. The problem was that people making the comparison often used PC monitor resolutions for the PC and the Xbox360 was only rendering games at 1280x720, sometimes even lower and barely managing a steady 30FPS. Once you dropped the PC resolution that low the X1950XT matched the Xbox360 easily.

Anyway, here is a decent $400 gaming build:
Once You Know, You Newegg

After rebates it is $427, close enough to $400, and it will play anything out and in the reasonable future at 1080p. Also, it comes with 3 current AAA titles, I wonder how many the PS4 will come bundled with...zero...
Back then, I still had a 3:4 CRT monitor that I ran at 1025*768 or whatever. I can assure you, that my Radeon X1950XT did not run CoD4 anything near as well as it ran on the 360. I should know, I had that card and I tried it. I considered the game unplayable on my PC at the time, but very playable on the 360. I wasn't bothered though. I was all about BF2 back in them days.

Putting everything else that you have listed in your budget gaming rig to one side for a moment, and focusing on the graphics card. The 7790 is about the same level of graphics card as is in the Xbox One. However, obviously the same thinking that was behind the force/failware, Windows 8, it also behind the XBox One. The clear and obvious choice for console gamers' (who aren't retards) this time around, will be the PS4. Cheaper, none of the draconian DRM or the Orwellian prying potential, and notably more powerful a machine. The GPU driving the PS4 is an equivalent of the HD7870. Considerably more powerful than the HD7790, and that isn't taking into consideration the 8Gb of GDDR5 VRAM, compared with the 1GB of GDDR5 on that 7790. And then we have the fact that developers are always able/prone to getting much more punch out of the consoles per horsepower unit than they can out of the PC.

Therefore, you have failed miserably in your attempt to beat the up n coming $400 consoles with your $400 rig, which in my opinion, as a fussy gamer with cash to burn on good performing hardware is already totally obsolete. The consoles however will be good for 8 years.
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#2
rtwjunkie
by: newtekie1
Anyway, here is a decent $400 gaming build:
Once You Know, You Newegg
What you have done, newtekie1, is prove a valuable point. In the same neighborhood of price, you have come up with a rig which will play comparably to either PS4 or Xbone right now, but can be improved upon as time dictates. It won't be long before the new consoles are still stuck in 2013, and you have advanced with the times for a couple years. :toast:

By the time 5 years have passed, PS4 and Xbone will be left impossibly far behind, and we'll see the same thing we see now, with horrible looking games compared to their PC versions, and which don't quite play as well either.
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#3
MatTheCat II
by: rtwjunkie
What you have done, newtekie1, is prove a valuable point. In the same neighborhood of price, you have come up with a rig which will play comparably to either PS4 or Xbone right now, but can be improved upon as time dictates. It won't be long before the new consoles are still stuck in 2013, and you have advanced with the times for a couple years. :toast:
You guys can delude yourselves all that you want for whatever reasons you wish.

But if you had access to any 7 year old rig, even one that was high end at the time and would have cost much more to put together than the price of a console, and tried to play any modern title on it such as CoD Black Ops or even FIFA 13, and then compared the performance to how these games play on the current gen of consoles...........then you will be forced to realise how wrong your whole PC v Console appraisal is.

P.S. I have tried running these games on a pseudo 2006 machine.....an Athlon 6000+ X2 CPU, 4GB RAM, and a Radeon 6670 GPU (considerably more powerful GPU than what is in the consoles), the results were pretty damn ugly and in FIFA's case, the game was unplayable.
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#4
rtwjunkie
by: MatTheCat II
But if you had access to any 7 year old rig, even one that was high end at the time and would have cost much more to put together than the price of a console, and tried to play any modern title on it such as CoD Black Ops or even FIFA 13, and then compared the performance to how these games play on the current gen of consoles...........then you will be forced to realise how wrong your whole PC v Console appraisal is.
Except for those of us that DO still have a high-end machine from 5-6 years ago in the house (P5Q Deluxe mb, QX9650, 9800gt, 4gb RAM -not listed in my specs or sig), and have watched my teenagers play the same games as me over the years, and noticed just how incomparable the two systems are as far as quality. Best examples: Oblivion, Fallout New Vegas, Medal of Honor, Black Ops, Call of Duty, etc... So I commend you for trying to make a valid argument, but I have the past 5 years of direct comparison in the same house at the same time. The 360 became ancient by the 3rd year. And then I was able to move on and improve that rig as games became more trying and demanding by doubling RAM to 8Gb, upgrading to a GTX285.
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#5
Fourstaff
by: MatTheCat II
You guys can delude yourselves all that you want for whatever reasons you wish.
As hard as I try, I still can't play Starcraft II or Dota II using consoles (the two games which suck up 90% of my gaming time for the past 7 years).

Can you show me how? :o
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#6
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
by: MatTheCat II
Back then, I still had a 3:4 CRT monitor that I ran at 1025*768 or whatever. I can assure you, that my Radeon X1950XT did not run CoD4 anything near as well as it ran on the 360. I should know, I had that card and I tried it. I considered the game unplayable on my PC at the time, but very playable on the 360. I wasn't bothered though. I was all about BF2 back in them days.
Odd, my X1900GT0 that was unlocked to an X1950XT played CoD4 just fine on my 1280x1024 monitor I had at the time, it looked better than my Xbox360 version too.

by: MatTheCat II
Putting everything else that you have listed in your budget gaming rig to one side for a moment, and focusing on the graphics card. The 7790 is about the same level of graphics card as is in the Xbox One. However, obviously the same thinking that was behind the force/failware, Windows 8, it also behind the XBox One. The clear and obvious choice for console gamers' (who aren't retards) this time around, will be the PS4. Cheaper, none of the draconian DRM or the Orwellian prying potential, and notably more powerful a machine. The GPU driving the PS4 is an equivalent of the HD7870. Considerably more powerful than the HD7790, and that isn't taking into consideration the 8Gb of GDDR5 VRAM, compared with the 1GB of GDDR5 on that 7790. And then we have the fact that developers are always able/prone to getting much more punch out of the consoles per horsepower unit than they can out of the PC.
Yes, and no. I wasn't trying to beat the PS4, just get close to it. The computer isn't as powerful as the PS4. However, the argument was that you can make a decent gaming rig for $400, and I did just that. It will handle every modern game with ease.

Comparing the amount of GDDR in the PS4 to just the graphics card is wrong. The GDDR5 in the PS4 is used for system memory as well, of which the PC I built has 8GB of, so the total amount of RAM in the PC is 9GB. And at the medium settings that the 7790 will be used at, 1GB will be enough.

by: MatTheCat II
Therefore, you have failed miserably in your attempt to beat the up n coming $400 consoles with your $400 rig, which in my opinion, as a fussy gamer with cash to burn on good performing hardware is already totally obsolete. The consoles however will be good for 8 years.
Considering I wasn't trying to beat the PS4, I didn't fail at all. I can't fail at something I'm not doing.

And you bring up a good point. The console will be good for 8 years, it will also remain exactly the same for 8 years. Which means the games in 8 years will look pretty much the same in 8 years as they do today. However, the PC I picked will be able to have small amount of money put into it over the years to actually improve on it.

And lets talk about all the extra things the PC is capable of. I find it hilarious that console manufacturers are always trying to add functions into their consoles that have been part of PCs for ages. Besides that, lets see one of the consoles run Office. Lets see one that can even print to a wide range of printers.

Oh and then there is backwards compatibility. My PC can play pretty much any game from the past 15 years. Will the PS4 or Xbone be able to play any old games? No. Here is something ironic, my PC can play PSX and PS2 and (likely)PS3 games!:wtf:
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#8
MatTheCat II
by: rtwjunkie
Except for those of us that DO still have a high-end machine from 5-6 years ago in the house (P5Q Deluxe mb, QX9650, 9800gt, 4gb RAM -not listed in my specs or sig), and have watched my teenagers play the same games as me over the years, and noticed just how incomparable the two systems are as far as quality. Best examples: Oblivion, Fallout New Vegas, Medal of Honor, Black Ops, Call of Duty, etc... So I commend you for trying to make a valid argument, but I have the past 5 years of direct comparison in the same house at the same time. The 360 became ancient by the 3rd year. And then I was able to move on and improve that rig as games became more trying and demanding by doubling RAM to 8Gb, upgrading to a GTX285.
Stop moving the goalposts please.

QX9650 did not come out until 2008. XBox was out 2006, and that CPU alone cost more at release than the cost of the whole 360 console....

PCs consoles PC consoles PCs Consoles ........jeeeezus.

We all know that PCs are more powerful than consoles and that we all prefer PC gaming to console gaming.......it is just that the rest of the world doesn't share in our wisdom and preference for the superior, and vastly more expensive platform.
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#9
rtwjunkie
2013-2008=5. I said 5-6 years. And I am in a unique position to have used that pc until December last year, and observed the quality of the games my teenagers played drop abysmally as the years went on compared to the same games on pc. I gave a very fair representation of a high end system from back then, which you yourself said to throw up there.

The point of this article wasn't pc vs console, it was that MS had to use a high end pc to sell the public on the games and quality. But the specs of that system far, far outweigh the mid-level gaming specs of TODAY, which is where the new consoles are. What about in 5 months?

I myself probably will buy one of these systems...they have their uses, as has the 360 in my house for years, but they cannot keep up with PC's. They become outclassed in very short order by even mid-range pc's.
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#10
15th Warlock
by: newtekie1
An 8-Core AMD CPU that is the equivalent of about a $150 PC CPU. I'd say that is pretty close to entry level gaming PC , and the video card is definitely entry level gaming PC.
Usually, I would agree with that statement, except in this case, Jaguar (which shares the same architecture as Kabini) was designed from the ground up to be a low power CPU to compete with the likes of Atom; a quad core Kabini (theoretically half the power as the 8 core parts depending on clock and memory bandwidth) can beat a Cortex A15 or an Atom z2760 in terms of raw CPU performance, but is easily beaten by even a low power dual core i5 Ivy Bridge:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/3

So don't let the "8-Core" title fool you, these are cores for optimized for very low power use, and really don't compare all too well to a full blown desktop PC processor.
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#11
Covert_Death
by: 15th Warlock
Usually, I would agree with that statement, except in this case, Jaguar (which shares the same architecture as Kabini) was designed from the ground up to be a low power CPU to compete with the likes of Atom; a quad core Kabini (theoretically half the power as the 8 core parts depending on clock and memory bandwidth) can beat a Cortex A15 or an Atom z2760 in terms of raw CPU performance, but is easily beaten by even a low power dual core i5 Ivy Bridge:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/3

So don't let the "8-Core" title fool you, these are cores for optimized for very low power use, and really don't compare all too well to a full blown desktop PC processor.
the one good thing about these 8-core consoles is that games will finally be optimized to use at least 8-cores (they will have to be if they even want them to be playable on consoles) so this means my FX-8350 @ 5.0Ghz will really start showing off what it can do as far as gaming here soon... CAN'T WAIT

(also can't wait to get a PS4!)
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#12
15th Warlock
by: Covert_Death
the one good thing about these 8-core consoles is that games will finally be optimized to use at least 8-cores (they will have to be if they even want them to be playable on consoles) so this means my FX-8350 @ 5.0Ghz will really start showing off what it can do as far as gaming here soon... CAN'T WAIT

(also can't wait to get a PS4!)
Not necessarily, both consoles will dedicate one or more cores to run background tasks such as OS and downloads while gaming, both Sony and MS have confirmed that.

However, you can't deny the trend is for the development of multi threaded game engines, and we might finally start seeing games that utilize 4 or more cores on PC as an added benefit as you said :)
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#13
MxPhenom 216
Corsair Fanboy
I showed a guy who I work with this thread and article and he got so defensive about the Xbox One and Microsoft. Saying its normal practice. my rebuttal back was "Right its a standard practice to have dev kits at gaming conventions showing off the new games, on normal PCs that have hardware CLOSE too what the console will have." :rolleyes:
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#15
Ikaruga
by: Regeneration
Microsoft sent us a response. They say it was a devkit system.
"PR Manager at Microsoft" ;)
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#16
andresgriego
Other people in this thread have explained how these consoles could perform comparably to high end PC hardware. With an optimized OS, you bypass useless layers of functionality that you don't need on a gaming console, and at the same time you can optimize communication paths of those you do need. Windows is multipurpose, bloated and farty.

by: 15th Warlock
Usually, I would agree with that statement, except in this case, Jaguar (which shares the same architecture as Kabini) was designed from the ground up to be a low power CPU to compete with the likes of Atom; a quad core Kabini (theoretically half the power as the 8 core parts depending on clock and memory bandwidth) can beat a Cortex A15 or an Atom z2760 in terms of raw CPU performance, but is easily beaten by even a low power dual core i5 Ivy Bridge:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/3

So don't let the "8-Core" title fool you, these are cores for optimized for very low power use, and really don't compare all too well to a full blown desktop PC processor.
Yes, and they aren't going to be doing the same kind of work as a desktop processor with the implied, associated OS, so you can't really compare them to anything in the desktop world. It's not a proper comparison.
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#17
rtwjunkie
by: andresgriego
so you can't really compare them to anything in the desktop world. It's not a proper comparison.
Except the specs are set now...not even at high-end hardware levels as a unit (and yes, we can compare this time, because Sony and MS both basically built pc's), and will be frozen there for 6 to 8 years. Blink your eyes and you miss advances in the PC world.

After 3-4 years, game manufacturers will be once again working their hardest to squeeze every bit of performance they can out of antiquated hardware. The PC world though will have moved well along, and will play the same titles (of those that are released to PC as well) at superior scope, magnitude, speed, and graphical quality.
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#18
andresgriego
by: rtwjunkie
Except the specs are set now...not even at high-end hardware levels as a unit (and yes, we can compare this time, because Sony and MS both basically built pc's), and will be frozen there for 6 to 8 years. Blink your eyes and you miss advances in the PC world.

After 3-4 years, game manufacturers will be once again working their hardest to squeeze every bit of performance they can out of antiquated hardware. The PC world though will have moved well along, and will play the same titles (of those that are released to PC as well) at superior scope, magnitude, speed, and graphical quality.
No, what I meant is just because the cores of the jaguar fall under an entry level category in the desktop world doesn't mean they aren't up to job of running a gaming console, even in a mediocre sense. They're impressive, especially if they harbour the hUMA technology.
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#19
DannibusX
by: newtekie1
A good deal worse? An X1950XT easily matched the Xbox360. The problem was that people making the comparison often used PC monitor resolutions for the PC and the Xbox360 was only rendering games at 1280x720, sometimes even lower and barely managing a steady 30FPS. Once you dropped the PC resolution that low the X1950XT matched the Xbox360 easily.

Anyway, here is a decent $400 gaming build:
Once You Know, You Newegg

After rebates it is $427, close enough to $400, and it will play anything out and in the reasonable future at 1080p. Also, it comes with 3 current AAA titles, I wonder how many the PS4 will come bundled with...zero...
Don't forget the lack of a $50-$60 premium to play a multiplayer game online :P
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#20
Fourstaff
So if we can emulate Xbox one with a PC, why not get a PC and install a hacked Xbox one OS and get the best of both worlds?
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#21
remixedcat
You can prolly run the XboneOS in Hyper-v or Vmware
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#22
Prima.Vera
Yeah, I foresee some emulators coming real soon for PC.
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#23
illincrux
by: YogurtMaster
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. The Alpha dev kits were using similar components. The game will look the same. It's a common practice in the INDUSTRY!

You guys are killing me with your ignorance. This happens at EVERY LAUNCH E3, it is standard stuff.

They are not trying to trick anyone. E3 is at a weird time of the year when the code is not finished or even near finished. All the developers are still working on the game while E3 is going on, they just needed to provide a stable branch of code and probably used a development kit or a pseudo development kit to run the code.

Every person here should

1) learn how to code games
2) Should go behind the scenes at E3 and find out what is really going on behind the curtains.

E3 is really an awkward time for developers because they are still using old hardware and still providing either demos to take time out of coding for the game for weeks to just provide a simple demo that may not be in the final game and is on old pieces of hardware.
Don't know if this guy is a payed shill or just arrogant?

You seem to not know anything about Federal Laws having to do with fraud: US Code - Chapter 47

Just because it's E3, doesn't give anyone legal and moral immunity to fraudulence....
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#24
illincrux
by: Fourstaff
So if we can emulate Xbox one with a PC, why not get a PC and install a hacked Xbox one OS and get the best of both worlds?
The best of both worlds? :banghead:

Both the Xbox One and Windows 8 are spiralling towards doom. In fact, I just switched over to Ubuntu 13.04 since it appears to finally have the support and mainstream capabilities that it nearly had 2 years ago when I last checked it out.

If anything, I'm curious to know if you can install Linux on the PS4 since you can do it with the PS3. In fact, Sony was encouraging it so perhaps they will with this next generation?
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#25
MatTheCat II
by: Fourstaff
So if we can emulate Xbox one with a PC, why not get a PC and install a hacked Xbox one OS and get the best of both worlds?
This would be really funny if it happened.

I would install it and game on it just to spite Microsoft. I am p1ssed with them right now for forcing me to use Windows 8 on my new laptop.
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