DaCAgreed and disagreed.
Competition has been very healthy since 8800 vs 3800-4800 series, I can't see lack of competition being the problem. Seems more like "price fixing", veiled of course.

Oh dear lord, no it hasn't... unless you call AMD/ATI being forced to lower their prices from launch day on down (not on the last gen) 'competition'. Like I said, it wasn't until the 4xxx series that AMD was competative and even then, they had to lower prices because the performance just wasn't there.

Now, the price fixing thing I can agree with... but IMO, that is(was) because the lack of an AMD "high end card" that could compete with Nvidia's for the past several generations. Hell, AMD even said that they will not compete in that segment (and then these monsters!).

I'm not being disrespectful with you sir., neither joking... this type of movement is always present, be it big or small, but yes, there are always SOME that will do just that...... viral marketing ? Makes part of it..... makes part of everybody life nowadays....
But really, I won't flame anything, I'm way over the age of having the patience of doing that.

Not flaming either, but, IMO, you are simply not finding the pulse of this market. Oh well. :)

DaCEven thought dates are not right, you still get the point, right ?
I guess on 2009 HD5870 was launched aorund $400 and HD5850 on $300... right ? And it was a matter of months (not even 5 is my guess), they were arouns $200-$280 mark.... we're talking about the high end cards of that time.
From techpowerup: www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_8800_GTX_OC/
The thing is... prices like that were a joke a that time, now people think "it's fine".
This one is nice too: www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/EAH5970/

Now you check the inflation between 1998 and 2009, then... 2009 to 2013..... you'll see something is wrong (even more because we're facing a global economy recession).
The thing is... if top end cards kept on the $200-$300 mark for 11 years... why they're up to $500-$1000 (ok scrap that $1k mark), in 4 years ?

About 2 cards (mid to high end), beating 1 single top end card for a lower price, this was always true as far as I can remember of.


I personally think some users on these forums are fake users, that have a single objective: To make prices look great! And many people buy this trap....
You can tell many have a few days, or very few posting saying these prices are the best thing on earth..... and this is a very common behave.

The Radeon X850 XTPE was like €500 here iirc.. The x1800XT was quite expensive as well. 9800Pro 256MB was just short of $500, the 5900 Ultra was around $500 as well. They are actually mor expensive these days, but the top end cards were not at that mark for 11 years. If anything you get more performance for your money these days.

That is the other problem too. I am talking US $. Talking across different countries and monies makes this conversation even more convoluted...

... I digress.

EarthDogThat is the other problem too. I am talking US $. Talking across different countries and monies makes this conversation even more convoluted...

... I digress.

The prices in my post were all taken from US reviews, except that x850.

Used 780 prices are going to be great- will be a great time to revisit SLI.

Well like I said.... nothing against it.... after all that's the high end market, right ? I'll won't complain about high end prices....

But just don't forget how number changed to accommodate a "new" price point. Using AMD as an example. 5800 was the top single processor card line.... 6800 wasn't, instead of 6900 was.... and 6990 was the dual processor card......
This movement alone represents a big leap on prices (specially on the mid-end), you would expect from top single end cards... this was one move (among others), that led us to think the steady $500 mark for high end cards is a good thing.

I think these price tables are very interesting
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_3870/
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Diamond/HD_4870/
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_260_Sonic_216_SP/
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/EAH5970/
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Asus/Radeon_HD_6990/
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/nvidia/geforce_gtx_580/1.html
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/nvidia/geforce_gtx_titan/

Numbers don't lie... well at least when this is not statistics.... :D
I would call attention specially to the GTX580 (listed) price between 2010 and 2013 reviews.

Again, I'm more than pleased people are buying it, this way I'll have many to buy for cheap in a future not too distant and in the mean time my GTX570 is doing just fine on 1920x1080.

BTW agreed on the "last gen" competition issue.

Frick, but back then X850 XTPE was our Titan from that time, correct me if I'm wrong...

Edit: 6800 ultra seems to be the one back then...

EarthDogDefine, "not long ago"? Because, almost 8 years ago, in 2006, the 8800 GTX came out @ $550 MSRP IIRC. So, you are a few years off (and frankly should be used to this pricing considering how long we actually have been seeing them) of what you are trying to say.

So, in the landscape that has existed essentially since 2006, Seeing now that 2 different $500 cards can beat a $1k card, is why it is a 'must buy' and a 'reasonable price'.

I *think* the first single core GPU that was $1K was the Titan, which was released this year. Now, dual GPU cards are a different story all together. ;)

$500+ pricing goes even further back than that with X850XT, 6800 Ultra, etc. in 2004. The only recent inflation in prices have been GTX 780, Titan and the upcoming 780ti (barring dual GPU cards).

DaCFrick, but back then X850 XTPE was our Titan from that time, correct me if I'm wrong...

If you want to take Nvidia overpricing 780 and Titan as where the market is, you're correct. I don't necessarily agree with it, especially since AMD just priced their Titan competitor (performance -wise) at the normal high-end price of $500-ish.

erocker$500+ pricing goes even further back than that with X850XT, 6800 Ultra, etc. in 2004. The only recent inflation in prices have been GTX 780, Titan and the upcoming 780ti (barring dual GPU cards).

But, as far as I remember, these prices used to drop like a rock.... and now we are not seeing this anymore... prices still drop, but waaaaay more slowly... and this is the price inflation I'm talking all this time... lunch price + very slowly price drop compared to the past... and yes... a $1k gpu makes a $500 one seems reasonable, when it's not.

Yes, the just released prices a good news, but IMHO, still far from what used to be practiced.

DaCBut, as far as I remember, these prices used to drop like a rock.... and now we are not seeing this anymore... prices still drop, but waaaaay more slowly... and this is the price inflation I'm talking all this time... lunch price + very slowly price drop compared to the past... and yes... a $1k gpu makes a $500 one seems reasonable, when it's not.

Yes, the just released prices a good news, but IMHO, still far from what used to be practiced.

7970 MSRP $550. Has been selling for $300 bucks for the past couple months.

You are right though, inflation happens. I'm surprised it hasn't happened more than it has.

And I'm quite the opposite, I'm very surprised by it... "=]
But anyway, maybe I'm just a cheap bastard, because to me a 7970 is already on the group of price inflated cards... come on... 2 years from $550 to $300 ?
a 4870 at that time would be $150 already from $300 or even not selling anymore..... ok I finally get it... maybe I don't love VGAs that much anymore to accept these prices.

DaCBut, as far as I remember, these prices used to drop like a rock.... and now we are not seeing this anymore... prices still drop, but waaaaay more slowly...

As long as the market supports people selling the cards at the high price points, they will keep prices high. And people were buying them, so there was no reason to lower the high end. Now, with the new high end AMD's coming out, people won't buy the high end nvidia offerings, so they lower prices. It's just simple economics.

From a personal standpoint, it's tough to save up to reach that high end, but I understand it. Basically, we can only blame each other, because we are the consumers apparently willing to pay those prices. :eek:

rtwjunkieAs long as the market supports people selling the cards at the high price points, they will keep prices high. And people were buying them, so there was no reason to lower the high end. Now, with the new high end AMD's coming out, people won't buy the high end nvidia offerings, so they lower prices. It's just simple economics.

From a personal standpoint, it's tough to save up to reach that high end, but I understand it. Basically, we can only blame each other, because we are the consumers apparently willing to pay those prices. :eek:

Amem!

DaCBut, as far as I remember, these prices used to drop like a rock.... and now we are not seeing this anymore... prices still drop, but waaaaay more slowly... and this is the price inflation I'm talking all this time... lunch price + very slowly price drop compared to the past... and yes... a $1k gpu makes a $500 one seems reasonable, when it's not.

Yes, the just released prices a good news, but IMHO, still far from what used to be practiced.

If you live in the past... you will never move forward, LOL! Along those lines, milk used to be a nickle and here we are bitching about $1K video cards when food prices have gone up with ZERO relief. I would like to see your message in an area that matters for humanity. Not to those dealing with "First world problems" like choosing to buy a $500 GPU and if that is too expensive or not. ;)

It is reasonable, to me, and many others, that price of $500 for $1K worth of performance. We can't change the market. People just like you may sit here until you are blue in the face not buying it, but there are hundreds of thousands of others that just don't care. I have lived too long and been to a lot of schooling to sit around and play Kumbaya these days like you and rtw seem to want to do. Is it fair? Probably not. But am I going to waste my precious time on this earth NOT buying things I worked my ass off to afford just because (someone thinks) its priced too high? Nope.

EDIT: Perhaps I am just jaded, LOL!

erocker7970 MSRP $550. Has been selling for $300 bucks for the past couple months.

Exactly. Proof right there. Same with its little brother (7950) but not nearly as much. Again, top end card with no competition hits the shelves at $550. 680 comes out, "DOWN GOES FRASIER!" and the price drops to match or go lower than the 680. Time goes on, the 7970 drops more to steal market share.

Can someone please remove the needle off the broken record? :D

780ti or TITAN is still to expensive !:shadedshu
$ 500 ˘ obtain R9-290X and game BATTLEFIELD 4 you would like to have each and play !
Certainly bundle( Batman: Arkham Origins, Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, and Splinter Cell: Blacklist ) can not offer gameplay since they are console games which would be played for the bored and then rejected !I'd rather not see the trash with the card but reasonable price :mad:
If it would have been a little more clever to offer COD Ghosts the price of $ 500 and would really competitive product be accessible to all .
nVidia hawe naw viewable for almost two years raped people by crazy prices !:slap:
This slap in the face was more than necessary !
Prices are still too high but do not want to admit their behavior towards customers !
When they are sold almost nothing will be forced to lower prices ! HURA! for Radeon .Ill buy
at list 3 GPU top clas and it will not be nvidia if they remain so expesive !;)

EarthDogIf you live in the past... you will never move forward, LOL! Along those lines, milk used to be a nickle and here we are bitching about $1K video cards when food prices have gone up with ZERO relief. I would like to see your message in an area that matters for humanity. Not to those dealing with "First world problems" like choosing to buy a $500 GPU and if that is too expensive or not. ;)

It is reasonable, to me, and many others, that price of $500 for $1K worth of performance. We can't change the market. People just like you may sit here until you are blue in the face not buying it, but there are hundreds of thousands of others that just don't care. I have lived too long and been to a lot of schooling to sit around and play Kumbaya these days like you and rtw seem to want to do. Is it fair? Probably not. But am I going to waste my precious time on this earth NOT buying things I worked my ass off to afford just because (someone thinks) its priced too high? Nope.

EDIT: Perhaps I am just jaded, LOL!

Oh boy, will I have to repeat this again ? "I thank you for buying these cards", really. My face won't change a single notch on the color scale for that. :cool: oh shit, it is blue now! :D damn, green now..... :roll:
As for me, I'll remain getting these $500 video cards for $150-200 used 2 years latter to have 8 or 15 fps less than the new $650 one, I can live with that.
The more you buy it, the cheaper I'll get it later. :toast:

As for charity, well, I'd advise you to donate $1k instead of buying a $1K vga. That's my message regarding humanity.

Again, stop trying to flame my points.

DeOdViewI'm just curious what's NV going to do when AMD release the R290 at $449?! Let's the game begin! Fun times. :rockout:

Or when juicy custom R9 290(X)s start to surface... I'm also a bit curious if R9 280X (XTL revision) will bring anything new (other than increased efficiency?), cause as much as I want a card as fast as my sanity will allow, I'd rather either buy a cheaper one and wait for 20nm or just not buy anything and wait for 20nm, 2 of my best friends are going for AMD GPUs right now, so I'd still get to fiddle with them... :D

Not trying to flame, just trying to discuss our points. Sorry you are taking it that way...

The bottom line is we just do not agree. Most are excited about this pricing structure, and for good reason. Others, like you sir, do not. And that is ok. The reality of the situation is, looking at your system specs for the first time, you likely do not need or care for such high end cards. You seem content with a 4 generations old GPU likely running what 1280x1024, no clue? It is no wonder you feel that way. When everything in life you need (good FPS, with eye candy) can be reached by bike (mid-range GPU), a car (high end GPU) seems pretty frivolous. Understand that I am using a 2560x1440 monitor which, to play games as they are supposed to look, or close, requires a higher end card to play. That is the only reason I am in this market at this time (DAMN YOU KOREAN MONITORS FOR SO CHEAP!!). If I was still at 1080p, I may 'feel' your point more than I do now (as I understand it, just don't 'feel' it).

Anyway, sorry you took this as flaming. I know my honesty and lack of 'sugar coating' can sometimes be miscontrued as 'attacks' on the person, but rest assured, they are not.

I didn't knew the meaning of flaming had changed.

I was willing to argue about valid points, not if the earth is round, or humanity or system specs (which I thought you'd be smart enough to conclude it's an outdated information, but I was wrong).

I'll stop here with you.

Jesus. The internet is serious business. Jest and analogies went over your head... my bad. :wtf: :toast:

Now, related to other matters... nVidia seriously needs to release that rumored GTX 750 Ti... and AMD a R9 270... or at least a more middle-of-the-road GCN1.1 GPU...

There is an R9 270X out, or are you literally talking 270 (no x). There are some significant gaps performance wise between the 250x, 260x, and 270x, that is for sure.

Yeah, that's exactly where I was aiming... Also, there's only R7 250, a 250X would prolly have better specs, but then again, I don't understand how both AMD and nVidia keep releasing piss-poor GPUs in the lower end, then, suddenly, after a long series of them, jump to "not bad obama" levels... At least for AMD it makes sense, they don't really have to diversify their low end too much, APUs will do a much better job AND will probably bring in more income.

erocker$500+ pricing goes even further back than that with X850XT, 6800 Ultra, etc. in 2004. The only recent inflation in prices have been GTX 780, Titan and the upcoming 780ti (barring dual GPU cards).



If you want to take Nvidia overpricing 780 and Titan as where the market is, you're correct. I don't necessarily agree with it, especially since AMD just priced their Titan competitor (performance -wise) at the normal high-end price of $500-ish.

8800GTX was $600-$650, so nothing new.
8800Ultra, which was for all intents and purposes an overclocked 8800GTX, was $830.

www.anandtech.com/show/2222

X800XT was pushing near $600 when it was out.

"NVIDIA to Cut Pricing of GeForce GTX 780 and GTX 770 Post GTX 780 Ti"
"NVIDIA could adjust prices of two of its key high-end SKUs to make them competitive with AMD's lineup."

I'm a bit confused. Are you a) saying that Nvidia is going to cut its prices, but hasn't revealed by how much (hence your guestimation), or b) assuming Nvidia is going to cut their prices and the title is a mistype?