I honestly dont care if it had 1 billion lines of code. I spent all the gd money and I except to have the drivers ready when the product is sold. It's like selling a shit load of lamps before light bulbs were invented.:banghead:

PyroIncI honestly dont care if it had 1 billion lines of code. I spent all the gd money and I except to have the drivers ready when the product is sold. It's like selling a shit load of lamps before light bulbs were invented.:banghead:

I can appreciate the work needed to release a drivers of that complexity... I really can.

However, you're absolutely right, they have no right to lie to their customers who trusted them to provide a quality product that was ready to hit the market. Wake up Nvidia, it's not about doing it "first"... it about doing it right! The first time!

All I got to say is "buyer beware".

Dude, all the Windows NT code in a driver...that's one gigantic download.

exactly what all of us 8X00 haters (so to speak) have been speaking about. You rush to the market for new DX10 card before your red enemy and your stuff dont even work right. Oh well, at least now you know whats going on, which is good.

Not like Creative which has been next too silent on the whole matter.

20,000,000 lines of code for a single driver? Thats got to be the craziest thing ive ever heard.

It's true that there should be drivers for the 8800 but there is equal blame here. Yes, the company is wrong for selling a product that doesn't have proper driver support (reminds me of a particular OS). However, I believe "let the buyer beware" may also come into play here. As the buyer you knew this was bleed edge technology and you knew there are no programs or games that support DX10. Therefore, it can be said that you assumed the risk of having bleeding edge technology until the "market" catches up. Lets look at some facts:
-There are 0 (zero) competing high performance video cards that support DX10 at the moment
-There are 0 (zero) games using dx10 at the moment
-OS that uses DX10 was just released and, still has bugs of it's own to work out. Therefore, no guarantee that DX10 will function properly with the game, driver and hardware, yet.

So with this blurring oversight with the "I gotta have it now" they are now the guinea pigs. For the rest of us, we await patiently to see how all this pans out within the next few months. And, to add insult to injury by the time this all pans out we will be able to make purchases at a lower price point :nutkick:

Side note:
You blame Nvidia for not having drivers out for video card that has 0 use for dx10 games (as there are no dx10 games). I would be more understanding if DX10 games where out or if the x2800 was also already available with working DX10 drivers. No, I am not excusing Nvidia for what they did but you knew this when you purchased the card!!!! Only those who where the first to have the 8800 didn't know and by then it was plastered all over the net!!!
You blame Creative Labs for not circumventing Vista's HAL to provide you with accelerated sound/EAX, etc.

Holla.


But it isn't MS's problem to make drivers.


It is the lazy companies.


And to be fair it too a few driver releases to make the X1K series cards go as fast as they could. But at least they could go. :D

SteevoHolla.


But it isn't MS's problem to make drivers.


It is the lazy companies.


And to be fair it too a few driver releases to make the X1K series cards go as fast as they could. But at least they could go. :D

Actually it IS MS's problem. Are you implying that people who buy vista should be satisfied with the vista drivers only? It's not up to the 3rd party manufactures to find solutions to make products work with vista. MS should be offering some level of support to get drivers working correctly with their OS! I mean lets be canned, if Vista had it together who would need 3rd party driver support to begin with? And, who's going to buy vista if they are going to have driver problems? Problems they didn't have with XP!

20,000,000 lines of code for a single driver?

That's absolute rubbish. I think this is internal communication (excuse making) getting used as external PR by mistake. Imagine this situation:

CEO: Get the Head Developer to my office immediately! We are getting a lot of complaints from customers and reviewers and its harming our reputation! The stock is falling! My options! My options! We gotta do something. Get John here, now!

Secretary: Yes, sir. I'm on to it right away

Secretary on phone: John, you better get over here right away. The boss is doing a flip and is ready to kill someone. And probably you. Better have a good excuse ready!

5 minutes later, John arrives at CEO's office.

CEO: WTF do you think you and your team are doing... you've got some explaining to do...

Head Developer: The guys are doing a great job. I know we are late... but we are all working overtime and the weekends... and you have to understand that with every new shader we add to the design of the GPU and with every extra MB of memory we add and with every extra MHz of clock speed we have to add more code. But the more code the more sophisticated and the more debugging we've got to do. The upside is the GPU is getting faster and faster and no extra hardware cost... and it's just going to be great man... look at the waterfall demos (bullshit BS BS BS). There's a million lines of code.

CEO: OK whatever you say... you know I have to trust you on the technical details.

Developer: Yes sir, trust me on this one

***

CEO phones PR lady: Hey Rita, John says the delay is due to a million lines of code that his team of 20 are still working on. Can you turn it into a press statement?

Rita: Sure thing. We'll make something up based on the figures you gave me.

EastCoasthandleActually it IS MS's problem. Are you implying that people who buy vista should be satisfied with the vista drivers only? It's not up to the 3rd party manufactures to find solutions to make products work with vista. MS should be offering some level of support to get drivers working correctly with their OS! I mean lets be canned, if Vista had it together who would need 3rd party driver support to begin with? And, who's going to buy vista if they are going to have driver problems? Problems they didn't have with XP!

Looks like someone has never used Vista. FYI: Vista comes with a WDDM driver that supports basic 3d functions such as Flip3d and the Aero interface.

P.S.- Your anti-Microsoft ramblings are getting old.

I think Completely Bonkers explained this story quite well :)

PyroIncI honestly dont care if it had 1 billion lines of code.

Man, I do... Windows NT-based OS' are literally, the LARGEST software artifacts in existence... this IS fact.

I've been writing code professionally for MOSTLY Fortune 100-500 companies, for 15 years now almost, & the amount of CHANGE is astonishing - you NEVER have to stop learning new stuff... it's a pain, worry, & yes, YOUR JOB IS ON THE LINE IF YOU DON'T "PASS MUSTER" & show you CAN DO IT!

(& yes, smaller companies as well too, in 'maintenance roles' (fixing other folks' holes, & it is HARDER imo, than writing from 'scratch' by far, in that you have to learn somebody else's style & logic + the 'business process involved' (NEVER THE SAME @ ANY 2 SEPARATE COMPANIES mind you, ever), & THEN, fix it!))...

See, I write info. systems! They are NEVER the same, because the business process (believe it or not, tough to learn, as tough as new code tools & API's almost imo @ least) changes for each & every one, because diff. companies are involved.

(MIS/IS/IT code - The stuff that makes the business world, go round, & @ both the part you probably use everyday in web queries types, & stand-alone or distributed systems in "std. Win32 PE designs" as well)

They're huge & quite complex, especially if they have many 'moving parts' (libs to call out, middlewares, & things like Terminal Server/Citrix in the mix, or the HELLISH DCOM (web-services are FAR easier to create imo, & do the SAME thing))!

BUT, they certainly (not the ones I have been on teams writing or myself) are NOT as big as an OS, nor as large as this driver NVidia is claiming is so large.

Now, the largest project I was ever a part of 1999-2000? Around 1 million lines of code!

I literally saved it, twice, from going 'belly up' (it gave me grey hair man & was 50-70 hrs. works weeks for months on end)... millions of dollars project, & my reputation in this field & THIS area.

Can't let THAT happen, or I am done.

See, I guess what I am trying to say is, It's not the coders you all should be angry with!

It IS instead the marketers who couldn't probably write a line of code, to save their lives... they promise "to turn the grass blue, & the sky green, & 'we' can get the job done, by yesterday" type b.s. to lure in venture capitalists, who yes, take the risk putting up the monies to create the program for task @ hand.

Drivers coding, I don't "do that", but from what I have heard, & seen in the Windows 2000 DDK @ least, & especially drivers that talk to the hardware DIRECTLY (not filtering ones, that monitor say, writes/reads to disk for example)?

THEY are some of the hardest wares there is to write... & for the EE's who design the boards too, it can be a nightmare in timings & trace design to account for their needs.

(One day, I plan to look into it more than I have, but it's not a 'big job market', not as widespread as the one I am into... would have to be 'independent study').

All-in-all? Give it time, they'll come thru, I think @ least! The coders had to learn a new DDK, around (literally) 7,000 NEW API CALLS in VISTA (yes, the # is THAT large)... & who knows if the DDK for VISTA is solid even!

See, the Device Driver Kit (DDK) for 2000/XP/2003 is pretty much the same, & drivers coders are USED TO IT by now & the example template code in it!

(Those template examples make it easier to design for particular hardwares, for BASIC functions, you add on more your particular card/hardware needs - smart move by MS: Solid foundation to start w/ & about as "RAD" as it gets for driver coders imo)...

HOWEVER, this changed in VISTA, & imo, probably pretty largely!

The OS is different, bigtime, in many a way, especially "under the skin" built off Windows Server 2003, or not. 7,000 new API function calls to master in VISTA... trust me, guys... that IS a lot. Personally, API use is not bad, but DirectX 10 coding's probably a nightmare. This I have worked on, & imo? Coding OpenGL is FAR easier (but, it ONLY controls video display, not other hardwares are DirectX does)... this probably also compounds the difficulty.

PyroIncI spent all the gd money and I except to have the drivers ready when the product is sold. It's like selling a shit load of lamps before light bulbs were invented.:banghead:

I dig that man, because I am ALSO a consumer... I've been there, lost money on it, & didn't even have the option you guys will have, which is to JUST BE PATIENT for another month!

I learned this lesson with Os/2, loved it, was great but... it did NOT have the backing from IBM it should have (& imo, they have some of the greatest programming talent on the planet even to THIS day)... & did not support all the apps for various purposes, that Windows, even 3.x, did. It truly WAS 100x the OS the Windows 3.x + DOS combo was in many a way.

I spent money on a dead OS, & utilities + apps for it... I guessed WRONG - it did NOT 'take out' Windows, period.

However, my man? I don't buy equipment for a "NEW OS", OR even the NEW OS (VISTA) anymore, because of that 'bad experience' & loss of monies on my end...

Nowadays, @ least NOT until I hear the absolute "Good Word" on it from LOTS of others (both professional reviewers, & regular stooges like us talking on forums)... & for what/how I use a PC for!

Yes, their marketing dept. is the ones to blame... if this goes bad for NVidia? Mark my words: Someone in marketing, most likely a 'big whig' is going down for it.

Still, this HAS happened a couple times before, & folks were NOT as bad... during the Windows 3.x/DOS -> Windows 9x transition, & MORESO when the "world moved to NT-based OS" too.

We'll live guys, lol...

APK

P.S.=> Man, I am pretty glad I did not get an 8800x series yet... & certainly not VISTA as well, & I came really close on VISTA the other day (yes, I like it actually), but I do NOT like the "DRM" stuff, the OpenGL being 'cut out', & this NVidia drivers issue.

Heck - Bill Gates said the other day? He does NOT LIKE DRM! Him? I actually like... why? HE IS A NERD @ HEART, you can see it when he talks (intelligent as hell imo too). He no longer calls the shots @ MS I do not think. IMO, Ballmer (total 'non-nerd') does now.

The money men rule this planet now boys, they're NOT after better mousetraps (as Bill Gates himself called Ms' wares during the Dept. of Justice hearings, a BETTER mousetrap)... they are the money men who want PROFIT only imo.

Well, see what havoc they create? This is a field for nerds/scientists types:

IMO, @ MS? It's not that way anymore, & only they should control it.

Why won't the dorks in marketing & mgt. LISTEN to them?? I say this, because I have been TOLD, specifically, to issue wares with bugs in them to make deadlines (promises by marketers with NO clue, & NO consultation w/ technical staff apparently on timelines & I MEAN THE CODERS!).

Mostly, it was "intermittent bugs" that don't ALWAYS pop up in every part of the program... issue it, patch later, or we get penalized. I am talking bugs that would only take a week or two more to get thru regression testing by Q/A people ontop of the debug-recode time too.

Apparently, they do NOT, because witness the results here! apk

8800 series drivers for vista would be nice to have, I guess pleasing the minority of your customers is nice. But again, I have to ask: What about all use 7 series and under users running XP? You know, the customer base that makes up the majority of NVidia users? We haven't see, or even heard about, a driver release since NOVEMBER! We are stuck using the complete crap 93.71 drivers. It is pretty clear that nVidia bit off a lot more than they can chew in their rush to get DX10 cards on the market and they are really only pissing their users off.

EDIT: I should say most of us are stuck using the 93.71 drivers, the beta 93.81 drivers are out there, and some, like I, have been modding the 8800 drivers they have been releasing to work with the lower cards. However, having a nice official WHQL driver release would be nice.

EastCoasthandleActually it IS MS's problem. Are you implying that people who buy vista should be satisfied with the vista drivers only? It's not up to the 3rd party manufactures to find solutions to make products work with vista. MS should be offering some level of support to get drivers working correctly with their OS! I mean lets be canned, if Vista had it together who would need 3rd party driver support to begin with? And, who's going to buy vista if they are going to have driver problems? Problems they didn't have with XP!

um ur the biggiest noob i have ever seen, honestly, grow up, vista has been avalable for testing by hardware companys since LONG b4 it was puto ut to public beta let alone RTM, nvidia has had over 9 months to work on vista drivers, its not ms's fault that nvidia where lazy fuks who sold a product without making driver support for it, ms cant force any hardware maker to do the right thing.

and vistas built in drivers are mostly stable, slow but stable, i hate vista, its gonna get wiped off my main test box soon, but it shal be removed because i simply dont like it, 2003 kicks it in the ballz every time.

oh and about os/2, it wasnt just because ibm didnt stand behing it ibm also wanted to charge a preimum for the tools to make apps for it, where as ms gave those away free at the time, and eventoday u can get alot of the stuff u need free, ibm tryed to sell the os and every little bit you needed to beable to make apps for the os, it was a racket, and its what killed os/2.

my advice, never buy a bleading edge product when it first hits, specly an nvidia bleeding edge card, i learned that with the fx line, and its happened again piss poor driver support for nt based os's......

I totally agree that Nvidia have made a mess of this, Never mind teh 8800`s There is no SLI support for my 7600`s...these are the vanilla mainstream card,2 running in sli was fine but 1 alone is simply not enough,im no noob when it comes to breaking software so it will work either(winx64 had little support alot of the time) but from a MAJOR player like NV...Grrrr

NV is now dead to me every box i build will have no nv based chipset to be found...they hurt my hip pocket now lets see how they go with most thier target market up in arms,I really see no reason to ever buy NV products again considering amd\ati will do good booards for there own proccies soon...and i welcome Nvidia too the budget market...doomed,gone the way of sis,not enthusiast equipment.....

looking forward to a better desktop again with my next rig anyhow.....ati ftw

Cheers,

Craigo

AshenSugar, EastCoasthandle you both should stop fighting, and you both should stop throwing insults.

newtekie1AshenSugar, EastCoasthandle you both should stop fighting, and you both should stop throwing insults.

Yup :).