AMD Throwing the Gauntlet at Intel for releasing biased & unreliable benches.

[Bill_Bright]

And this topic is not about PSUs

No - its about doing your homework and learning the facts before purchasing. It was an illustration that applies to CPUs too. Sorry you could not understand that, and as such, found it necessary to denigrate the thread with personal insults. I'm arrogant? NO WHERE did I call out anyone personally to criticize them with insults or name-calling because I did not like or disagreed with their comments or opinions. So look in the mirror, bud.

I don't think you get what this topic is really about.

Do you? This topic is not about GPUs either - but you are spending a lot of time on GPUs when Intel isn't even in the discrete (graphics card) GPU business.

Plain bullshit. Nobody said they talk about "all Intels vs all AMDs".

But my point was unless you specify a specific Intel vs a specific AMD instead of continually generalizing with just "Intel" and "AMD", then you are! Because as others have noted, AMD has done their share of marketing fluff and hype too. Plus, not every AMD CPU is inferior to every Intel CPU.

 

[newtekie1]

I think the last paragraph in the article sums things up nicely.



It seems to me AMD's benchmark is far more biased, considering it doesn't single out the product they're actually trying to sell.

The thing is, the PCMark8 benchmark suit is a good well rounded suit for the whole computer if you run all the tests. AMD ran the Work test only, which is the least CPU intense test in the entire suite. It tests Excel and Word and Video chat, thats pretty much it. Any CPU on the market can handle those tasks.

At the very least they should have run the PCMark8 Home test, which gives a better idea of home tasks, what the average end user will be doing. PCMark8 Work by itself is not a well rounded benchmark.

 

[Kanan]

No - its about doing your homework and learning the facts before purchasing. It was an illustration that applies to CPUs too. Sorry you could not understand that, and as such, found it necessary to denigrate the thread with personal insults. I'm arrogant? NO WHERE did I call out anyone personally to criticize them with insults or name-calling because I did not like or disagreed with their comments or opinions. So look in the mirror, bud.

I think I understand more than enough and more you think I can understand, but think what you want, fantasize more about it, if it makes you happy - again I don't care. Also, being arrogant is possible without calling out anyone, or talking to someone directly (you talked to EVERYONE in this thread). Stupid that you think you can be arrogant and patronize everyone and get away with it with such a lousy reason ("I didn't call names"). lol I think you are over 40 or over 50 years old, your social skills seem pretty limited regarding that, or you know it and are just making excuses. I think it's more likely the second one.

Do you? This topic is not about GPUs either - but you are spending a lot of time on GPUs when Intel isn't even in the discrete (graphics card) GPU business.

I already said that this topic is about a lot of things, GPUs too. I don't care about your ignorance either / I don't care if you accept this fact. Intel is in the GPU business, they have a high market share, the highest of the world (% GPUs sold or owned by users), they are just not in the "discrete" GPU market, but that's not really important here. Still, every CPU they sell with GPU in it, means, AMD/NV/other companys (if any) sell a GPU less - basically the same as producing discrete GPUs.

btw. a discussion is a fluid, moving thing, nailing it down to one specific thing is just in theory possible. You can go in every thread of this forum and see if people are at 100% holding to the respectable topic (guess what, they are not). Stating that, this discussion started with CPUs and moved to other things too, it simply advanced further, nothing special. So I don't see your point in nailing it down, other than to patronize people. I guess you get a hold of every chance patronizing people...

But my point was unless you specify a specific Intel vs a specific AMD instead of continually generalizing with just "Intel" and "AMD", then you are! Because as others have noted, AMD has done their share of marketing fluff and hype too. Plus, not every AMD CPU is inferior to every Intel CPU.

In some regards I was talking about "all" Intel / AMD, regarding their PR/Advertising etc. yes. But that's it. But I never said every Intel is better, or every AMD is better than any Intel CPU etc. I don't know why you are making this up and what's the point in it. Again I think you really like to patronize others, or like to deliver a speech, because I don't see the point in it. It's a discussion like every other, nothing to be ashamed of, it doesn't need a person showing up patronizing everyone. End of story - I won't continue this kindergarten with you forever, if you can't - for once - accept a mistake on your side.

 

[OneMoar]

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/01/amd-takes-a-swing-at-intels-sysmark-benchmarks-misses-completely/
tlR amds cpus are still shit regardless of any compiler optimisations this boils down to AMD whining like a 4 year old that just had its toys taken away and was made to sit in a corner

 

[arbiter]

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/01/amd-takes-a-swing-at-intels-sysmark-benchmarks-misses-completely/
tlR amds cpus are still shit regardless of any compiler optimisations this boils down to AMD whining like a 4 year old that just had its toys taken away and was made to sit in a corner

Read through that, they do make valid points about both sides and where amd is wrong in how they promote this.

Was thinking if AMD is attacking benchmarks now, wonder if Zen which AMD tout's as getting them back in the game might end up being another bulldozer? i don't want to see amd die but really though there is a point where they should tell their PR staff to shut up quit talking, then tell their R&D to get off their butt's.

 

[Kanan]

Read through that, they do make valid points about both sides and where amd is wrong in how they promote this.

Was thinking if AMD is attacking benchmarks now, wonder if Zen which AMD tout's as getting them back in the game might end up being another bulldozer? i don't want to see amd die but really though there is a point where they should tell their PR staff to shut up quit talking, then tell their R&D to get off their butt's.

I agree to the PR stuff, they should stick to the matters and be objective. Zen however can't be like Bulldozer, they already explained the architecture, it's a standard x86 CPU, no modules, real cores and up to 8 of them (desktop PC). The plans looked promising + it will have HTT. It's likely IPC will be a LOT higher than compared to Piledriver or latest iteration of FX - Excavator, because they strictly focused on IPC this time around. What I'm questioning is, how much the frequency will be? Will it be enough? And what will be the pricing? How about energy consumption? Such things... but I'm not questioning whether it will be another Bulldozer or not, I'm 99.9 period shure it will not, they learned from it, and plans already proved it's a traditional design like Sandy Bridge.

 

[JunkBear]

All this stuff really matters to high end users like productivity and gamers. For all day use and average people who never really use full power what matter the most is how much they can keep in their wallets. Budget rigs mostly always goes for AMD imho.

 

[newtekie1]

Zen which AMD tout's as getting them back in the game might end up being another bulldozer?

Zen's new marketing:

"AMD Zen - 9 Out Of 10 People Can't Tell It Isn't An Intel!*"
*In Microsoft Excel

Zen however can't be like Bulldozer, they already explained the architecture, it's a standard x86 CPU, no modules, real cores and up to 8 of them (desktop PC).

Just because it has "real" cores doesn't mean it can't be a performance disappointment. The original Phenom was "real" cores and it was pretty disappointing. Though I am hopeful for Zen, Jim Keller being a part of the design is a very good sign.

 

[Tsukiyomi91]

another problem about AMD is their CPU coolers.I dunno why but it look really microscopic compared to Intel's if u ask me & they're terrible at keeping temps at bay for an already hot processor chip. Intel's stock cooler at the very least has big surface area & large fan to keep their chips cool.

 

[hat]

Both Intel and AMD's stock coolers suck. AMD just runs hotter...

 

[Bill_Bright]

Both Intel and AMD's stock coolers suck. AMD just runs hotter...

There certainly are more efficient aftermarket coolers, but in spite of what the aftermarket cooler marketing weenies want us to believe, both Intel and AMD supply quality coolers that are more than adequate for most users. They have to be because they are the ONLY coolers that are warrantied to cool the CPUs they come with. OEM coolers today get a bad rap because OEM coolers of yesteryear were lousy.

OEM coolers are warrantied for 3 full years. And in the rare event a failed cooler somehow destroys the CPU, ONLY OEM coolers cover CPU replacement too. No aftermarket cooler does that. I note the often recommended CM 212 is only warrantied for a lousy 1 year. Even the OEM TIM pads are MUCH better than those used years ago.

Unless doing extreme overclocking, or you need total silence for a home theater PC, I always recommend users at least try the OEM coolers first. Typically, they are surprised how well and how quietly they work. And then they are surprised that it is typically the GPU, PSU, or case fans they are hearing and not the CPU fan.

They can always swap in an aftermarket cooler later on if not satisfied.

It is, after all, the case's responsibility to supply a sufficient flow of cool air through the case. The CPU fan need only toss up the CPU's heat into that flow. If case cooling is not doing the job with a default clocked CPU and OEM cooler, then the user (and/or computer builder) has failed to properly configure case cooling!!!

another problem about AMD is their CPU coolers.I dunno why but it look really microscopic compared to Intel's if u ask me & they're terrible at keeping temps at bay for an already hot processor chip. Intel's stock cooler at the very least has big surface area & large fan to keep their chips cool.

Perhaps that is a driving force for AMD to come out with this new cooler. That said, an advantage of the smaller coolers is they fit in slim cases, which seem to be getting more popular. And while size does matter, size is not everything. The composition of the heatsink, the fan's CFM, and of course case cooling too.

****

Intel is in the GPU business, they have a high market share, the highest of the world

Yeah right. And you call me ignorant? Did you even notice I specifically said (I will bold it this time for you), "Intel isn't even in the discrete (graphics card) GPU business." Got a link to a current, PCIe Intel graphics card?

btw. a discussion is a fluid, moving thing, nailing it down to one specific thing is just in theory possible.

Ah! I see. So it is okay for you to run a topic OT as long as it suits you. But for me to use "selecting PSUs" as an example (NOT a OT topic) for buying a graphics is not okay because it does not suit you. Right. And you call me arrogant?

I am not ashamed of any thing I said. Nor did I say anything that was in error - so nothing to admit too.

I won't continue this kindergarten

No more of your name calling! That would be wonderful. Thank you. And I will not respond to your personal affronts any more either.

 

[arbiter]

I agree to the PR stuff, they should stick to the matters and be objective. Zen however can't be like Bulldozer,

What I ment by that is a lot of promoted by bulldozer being this great new arch but when it came out it was barely any better then what they had before. They changed the arch but doesn't mean its better til it is shown to be.

 

[tabascosauz]

This claim is real annoying. AMD is trying to spin its usual "whole package performance is more important than raw CPU performance" from just a marketing factor to a misleading claim against Intel. Can they just leave it alone and be modest with a "BD is not what we need, so that's why we're working as hard as we can on Zen"? First the FX-8350 was the embodiment of "look, moar cores", then when it didn't work they threw that away and tried to promote FM2+ and their laptop APUs with "CPU performance is irrelevant because our iGPUs are x times more powerful than Intel's iGPUs".

Intel isn't clean, and never has been. But this is just another case of AMD trying to turn attention away from the fact that all BD-based platforms are absolute shit. The IPC difference between Excavator and Broadwell is significant but probably not 50%, but if you take into account the fact that most laptop manufacturers have tamed Intel ULV CPUs' Turbo but have absolutely no idea of how to cool Kaveri / Carrizo properly without axing performance, 50% is not far off the mark.

They even admitted in the very claim that they could not actually beat Intel. So what's the big deal here? Get beat by a chunk, or get beat by a chunk and half, you're still getting beat, and BD is shit. Just shut the hell up and work on getting Zen to the market when you need it to and we'll all be just fine.

This is all like appealing a rather unfair mark of 32% on an exam when you should have clearly gotten 35%. The pass threshold is 40%. Fight or no fight, you're still getting sent back to where you came from.

 

[cdawall]

another problem about AMD is their CPU coolers.I dunno why but it look really microscopic compared to Intel's if u ask me & they're terrible at keeping temps at bay for an already hot processor chip. Intel's stock cooler at the very least has big surface area & large fan to keep their chips cool.

Have you ever used an AMD heatpipe cooler?...The intel cooler isn't larger in any dimension.

Both Intel and AMD's stock coolers suck. AMD just runs hotter...

Om what way? I have never in my entire life as a PC guy seen AMD processors hitting 88-90C on their stock coolers at stock settings, (save a bad fan, or some other physical issue). Plenty of Intel CPU's do however.

 

[HumanSmoke]

If they (AMD) want to save their face, I hope they don't exaggerate on claims that their upcoming Zen & Polaris architecture are performing "worlds apart" while comparing on older chips from Nvidia & Intel while using botched benches to gain popularity & hype in their favor. But, since it's them after all... they'll gonna go on full force with it & shit starts hitting the fan all over again. If that happens, I won't be seeing AMD in any of my new builds.

Well, here's hoping the strategy fares better than the last time AMD tried a full court press on Intel. Benchmarking a non existent processor against cherry picked opposition with deliberately out of date benchmark scores...to the enterprise sector

(NSFW.....)

 

[hat]

Om what way? I have never in my entire life as a PC guy seen AMD processors hitting 88-90C on their stock coolers at stock settings, (save a bad fan, or some other physical issue). Plenty of Intel CPU's do however.

Hm, I'll give you that much, but I do know that many AMD users even with good coolers speak of high temps with their latest processors. Intel might be better off if they didn't use god knows what as their TIM between the CPU die and IHS and then try to cool that with a coaster. For what it's worth, I value AMD's stock cooler a good few notches above Intel's...

 

[cdawall]

Hm, I'll give you that much, but I do know that many AMD users even with good coolers speak of high temps with their latest processors. Intel might be better off if they didn't use god knows what as their TIM between the CPU die and IHS and then try to cool that with a coaster. For what it's worth, I value AMD's stock cooler a good few notches above Intel's...

What are high temps? AMD users complain about 55C on this forum.

 

[newtekie1]

Have you ever used an AMD heatpipe cooler?...The intel cooler isn't larger in any dimension.

Yeah, AMD's heatpipe cooler is way better than anything put out by Intel.

They have to be because they are the ONLY coolers that are warrantied to cool the CPUs they come with.

Intel and AMD warranty their CPUs regardless of what cooler you use, as long as the cooler used is adequate. Their high end Intel processors don't even come with a cooler anymore.

OEM coolers today get a bad rap because OEM coolers of yesteryear were lousy.

Intel's stock cooler has only gotten worse over the years. Most lower end processors come with short blocks of all aluminum crap coolers. The mid-range processors use the same small heatsink, but with a copper core, all be it a hollow copper core. At least 10 years ago Intel's coolers were tall, giving at least double the surface area, and had solid copper cores.

AMD is pretty much the same, they've be using the same heatpipe cooler since the FX-60, and the solid aluminum ones they give with most of their processors suck compared to it. Only the high end FX processors come with the heatpipe cooler.

Sure the stock cooler is fine for stock speeds, but all but the AMD heatpipe one are terrible.

 

[arbiter]

What are high temps? AMD users complain about 55C on this forum.

yea amd 8000 series only runs in the 55-60c range give or take. Problem is when max temp the cpu can run without frying is like 65-70c or there abouts yea that is considered High.

 

[cdawall]

yea amd 8000 series only runs in the 55-60c range give or take. Problem is when max temp the cpu can run without frying is like 65-70c or there abouts yea that is considered High.

65-70 is still 25+ degrees cooler than intel.

Intel and AMD warranty their CPUs regardless of what cooler you use, as long as the cooler used is adequate. Their high end Intel processors don't even come with a cooler anymore.

Technically neither do AMD's top end ones. The 9370/9590 are sold WOF, unless you ordered the handful with a watercooler packaged with them

 

[Bill_Bright]

This claim is real annoying. AMD is trying to spin its usual "whole package performance is more important than raw CPU performance" from just a marketing factor to a misleading claim against Intel. Can they just leave it alone and be modest

The problem is they can't leave it alone because Intel's marketing machine is running roughshod over AMD with their own marketing "ploys" to smash AMD. AMD is left with no recourse but defend itself.

AMD and Intel need each other (and we need both) but sadly, they don't see it that way.

Intel's stock cooler has only gotten worse over the years.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. They are quieter and more efficient. 10 years ago, even with mild overclocking, the OEM coolers (with AMD or Intel) would not be sufficient. Today, OEM coolers are able to support even moderate overclocking - with properly configured case cooling, of course.

 

[cdawall]

The problem is they can't leave it alone because Intel's marketing machine is running roughshod over AMD with their own marketing "ploys" to smash AMD. AMD is left with no recourse but defend itself.

AMD and Intel need each other (and we need both) but sadly, they don't see it that way.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. They are quieter and more efficient. 10 years ago, even with mild overclocking, the OEM coolers (with AMD or Intel) would not be sufficient. Today, OEM coolers are able to support even moderate overclocking - with properly configured case cooling, of course.

That's what happens when the CPU is 1/3rd-1/2 the wattage

 

[kenkickr]

Good points Bill.

I will say Intel back in the day did a brilliant job of advertising - Remember the aliens saying "Peeennntiuuuuummm"?
Intel was the only chipmaker back then doing such, never saw any ads from AMD, Cyrix, IBM, or anyone else involved with chipmaking at the time.

They used this to establish the brand name and product line in the same way you'd think of many common products by the same name - And it worked.

AMD did try though. Watch this.

 

[Bill_Bright]

AMD did try though. Watch this

lol That was good - and true back then. But everything changes and marketing campaigns fade away - otherwise, we would still be watching Geico caveman commercials!

 

[hat]

That's what happens when the CPU is 1/3rd-1/2 the wattage

I don't see it. CPU TDP has pretty much remained the same throughout my knowledge, through different market segments.