First Radeon HD 5870 Performance Figures Surface

[Benetanegia]

There was. At one point leading retailers simply ran out of it (all brands' 8800 GT) so there definitely was a supply shortage. I remember HD 3870 reviews telling "you can buy this, now that 8800 GT is hard to find/not available."

Yeah but because the demand was higher than what they thought, not because the supply was one bit lower than with any previous release.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/...rds_Continue_to_Drop_Jon_Peddie_Research.html

Look at the charts and the graphs. In Q4 2007 there was a big jump in sales and a more than normal decline in the price, but the overall revenue went up by a lot. The problem (for them) is that the average selling point never went back to normal and the sales did come down to normal levels. The conclusion is that right now the discrete graphics card market is just half of what it used to be. We are simply not going to see another 8800 launch.

In the by segments graph you can also see how the performance segments is going down in favor to the mainstream one, while the high-end market stays estable. I supose the difference between your thinkking and mine is that I take the HD5850/70 as the performance segment and HD5870 X2 as the high end, while you think all three are high-end.

 

[btarunr]

Yeah but because the demand was higher than what they thought, not because the supply was one bit lower than with any previous release.

Demand didn't cause that supply shortage, but I may be wrong.

For example, the TPU review back then said

Unfortunately the Sapphire HD 3870 is not faster than the GeForce 8800 GT which is sold at about the same price point. I would expect that the HD 3870 price drops soon, also the HD 3870 is in stock now and will be. NVIDIA's 8800 GT is sold out because of limited quantity available. So if you need a Christmas present and you need it now, the HD 3870 is an excellent choice.

So it seems like the supply shortage wasn't courtesy extreme demand, given the output NVIDIA is capable of.

I supose the difference between your thinkking and mine is that I take the HD5850/70 as the performance segment and HD5870 X2 as the high end, while you think all three are high-end.

I was squaring them off as >$200 / high-end to support my older arguments, those which the "vast majority" don't buy. I acknowledge them to be performance/high-end products.

That big jump in sales cannot be squared down to one product. That is an industry-wide figure, and doesn't pertain to a company or its products. And we don't know in which segment 8800 GT was classified back in 2007 because it was a high performing product at a >$200 price point.

 

[Benetanegia]

Demand didn't cause that supply shortage, but I may be wrong.

For example, the TPU review back then said



So it seems like the supply shortage wasn't courtesy extreme demand, given the output NVIDIA is capable of.

IMO numbers talk by themselves. Also information now is much more complete than what it was back then when Wizzard did that review. I supose he has his sources, but I don't think he has access to sales data before the quarterly numbers are posted, but I might be wrong, so let's just let him correct me if I'm wrong. Until then I can only assume that he said what everyone in that situation would have said/thought. I would have said the same back then, but after the numbers were posted, I have no choice but to change my opinion...

 

[RoutedScripter]

Interesting

HD5870 1GB version for $350

 

[pantherx12]

If that price is right for 5870 I'm going to get 2gb, just for kicks!

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Let's not forget that nVidia used to do the dirty little trick of selling at the same price as the ATI counterpart in the USA, and a lot more expensive in the rest of the world. -> This way they could get the halo-effect in most web reviews and at the same time get better profit margins.


Here in Europe, the 8800GT was always +40€ ($60) more expensive than the HD3870, the GTX260 Core 216 was always +40€ more expensive than the HD4870, and the GTX275 was always +40€ more expensive than the HD4890.

 

[Benetanegia]

Let's not forget that nVidia used to do the dirty little trick of selling at the same price as the ATI counterpart in the USA, and a lot more expensive in the rest of the world. -> This way they could get the halo-effect in most web reviews and at the same time get better profit margins.


Here in Europe, the 8800GT was always +40€ ($60) more expensive than the HD3870, the GTX260 Core 216 was always +40€ more expensive than the HD4870, and the GTX275 was always +40€ more expensive than the HD4890.

That's not truth. That doesn't happen everywhere.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

That's not truth. That doesn't happen everywhere.

Yes, I just said that the USA is the exception.

 

[Wile E]

I think these will fly off the shelves. I bet they go out of stock almost immediately.

 

[Chad Boga]

I think these will fly off the shelves. I bet they go out of stock almost immediately.

That might depend on whether there is decent quantity to begin with.

I guess it will depend on the pricing that ATI sets and that retailers choose, but the 5870 could end up being the best value mid to high end gaming card ever on initial release.

 

[Hayder_Master]

i still confused how this card have this performance with 256 bit only , i know it is great with 32 ROp's and more texture units but only 256 why ? price maybe

 

[Mussels]

i still confused how this card have this performance with 256 bit only , i know it is great with 32 ROp's and more texture units but only 256 why ? price maybe

DDR5 doubles it. thats equal to 512 bit in DDR3

 

[pantherx12]

GDDR5 I would imagine .

 

[Mussels]

GDDR5 I would imagine .

the whole DDR vs GDDR thing got confusing. it used to be different, now it seems they only call it GDDR because its on a video card.

 

[pantherx12]

Oh that wasn't in reply to you, was in reply to the other guy.

XD


Although having said that, this bits a reply to your post, the picture from wikipedia thurther up the page has DDR and GDDR on the bus type column, to further add to our confusion

 

[Fatal]

I am glad I held off was going to get a 4890 or two not any more mauhahaha!! Have some thing to look forward to now Will wait for TPU review cant wait!

 

[Benetanegia]

the whole DDR vs GDDR thing got confusing. it used to be different, now it seems they only call it GDDR because its on a video card.

I think that it still is quite different. And I know that by the book, Quad data rate isn't suitable at all for main memory. I doubt we will see it on main memory anytime soon.

Yes, I just said that the USA is the exception.

I meant everywhere within the EU and in Europe. I've been engaged in a road trip and have checked prices in retail stores in various countries, because I wanted to find a better deal than at home, I didn't. Prices simply aren't as you mentioned, nowhere. Nvidia cards do tend o be more expensive (they are a bit faster too), but just along the lines they are in Newegg in the US, just 10 euros or so more than Ati. There's definately no 40 euros difference. I mean the HD4870 is selling for 140 euros and the GTX260 is around 145 if you take the average. Maybe you can find some special offers or rebates for Ati that make them 40 cheaper somewhere, sometimes, but it's definately not the norm as you were implying in your post.

It is said that in some countries in the EU, Nvidia does sell much more than Ati (mainly in southern contries), I mean much more than the 2-to-1 (66%-33%) they do in the US, so it might be that Ati was forced to lower the prices there, but it doesn't happen always everywhere.

There's the posibility that you are comparing full retail prices on GTX cards against light retail prices on HD cards. I've seen many light retail HD cards and none on the other camp. Ok you can find lower prices that way, but you are NOT getting the same thing. You don't get the goodies and although enthusiast like us might not want those goodies and just want the card, esentially it's not the same. One friend got one of these light packages from Club3D (ok I know, I know) and it didn't carry any 4pin to 6pin connector, nor 6-to-8 or 4-to-8 although the card required one 6pin and one 8 pin. He had to buy the connectors because his PSU although being 650w and of good quality and brand, was old and didn't have those connectors. He ended up paying muh more. I don't know if that is the norm in light retail packages, but what you certainly don't get is games or software usually licensed for 1 year, while full retail packages tend to have them. Again it is debatable if you want that game and software, but it's not the same product you are getting. Basically as an enthusiast that buys a card every 6 months, you could blame Nvidia's partners for not offering these light packages as widely as Ati does, but when talking about prices is essential to compare apples to apples, IMO.

 

[mdm-adph]

That might depend on whether there is decent quantity to begin with.

I guess it will depend on the pricing that ATI sets and that retailers choose, but the 5870 could end up being the best value mid to high end gaming card ever on initial release.

Regardless of the size of the initial quantity, it's soon to be gone, whatever it is.

 

[Easy Rhino]

There's no hard and fast rule that a company has to work with a particular segment in mind. And it's not that AMD "wants to just make GPUs for enthusiasts", it has a mainstream GPU codenamed Juniper to do the wetwork.

well you cant take a massive company like AMD designed to manufacture hundreds of thousands of chips across the globe and expect to make a profit by scaling back production.

Radeon HD 5800s will fetch AMD money from the segments they are made for, while Radeon HD 5700s will do so with the VastMajority™

yea but not THAT much money. AMD probably makes 90% of their revenue from mid-range cards.

 

[btarunr]

well you cant take a massive company like AMD designed to manufacture hundreds of thousands of chips across the globe and expect to make a profit by scaling back production.

Where did it scale back production? It only released a new high-performance series, backed by mainstream series too

yea but not THAT much money. AMD probably makes 90% of their revenue from mid-range cards.

Right, and Juniper is built for that. I'm sure the same 90:10 ratio applies to NVIDIA as well.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I meant everywhere within the EU and in Europe. I've been engaged in a road trip and have checked prices in retail stores in various countries, because I wanted to find a better deal than at home, I didn't. Prices simply aren't as you mentioned, nowhere. Nvidia cards do tend o be more expensive (they are a bit faster too), but just along the lines they are in Newegg in the US, just 10 euros or so more than Ati. There's definately no 40 euros difference. I mean the HD4870 is selling for 140 euros and the GTX260 is around 145 if you take the average. Maybe you can find some special offers or rebates for Ati that make them 40 cheaper somewhere, sometimes, but it's definately not the norm as you were implying in your post.

It seems to me that you're only comparing the HD4870 to the GTX260, but those are not in the same performance level. The GTX260 core 216 was the card launched by nVidia to counter the HD4870.

Furthermore, what counts is not the price right now. It's the price when most reviews are written. When most HD4870 vs. GTX260 c216 reviews were being written, the GTX260 was always more expensive than the HD4870.

Yeah, maybe the lowest priced ATI cards don't bundle unimportant stuff, but who cares? The reviewers also had that into account.

And there are nVidia cards with weak bundles. I once bought a 8800GT that came only with the PCI-E power cable and a DVI->D-Sub adapter, from Club3D.

 

[Benetanegia]

It seems to me that you're only comparing the HD4870 to the GTX260, but those are not in the same performance level. The GTX260 core 216 was the card launched by nVidia to counter the HD4870.

Furthermore, what counts is not the price right now. It's the price when most reviews are written. When most HD4870 vs. GTX260 c216 reviews were being written, the GTX260 was always more expensive than the HD4870.

Yeah, maybe the lowest priced ATI cards don't bundle unimportant stuff, but who cares? The reviewers also had that into account.

And there are nVidia cards with weak bundles. I once bought a 8800GT that came only with the PCI-E power cable and a DVI->D-Sub adapter, from Club3D.

Since when is the price important when reviews are written? No my friend, price is important at the time of buying. Most reviews are written when the cards are launched, who in hell cares about the price of a GTX260/HD4870 8 months ago???

Also I supose there are weak bundles for Nvidia cards, I just stated what I saw in 10+ stores around 5 countries. There's no such light packages where I live.

And as a side note. Where it matters the GTX260 216 destroys the 512 MB HD4870 which is the only one that is much cheaper. It takes the 1 GB version to average more or less the same as the GTX260 you can get today.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Since when is the price important when reviews are written? No my friend, price is important at the time of buying.

No, price difference is more important when the cards are compared, at the time of the review.
When you buy the card now, what you read is the reviews from 8 months ago, because no reviewer cares about those cards right now.


nVidia even increased the price of the 8800GT, after most of the reviews were done, saying it was better than the HD3870 for the same price.

 

[Benetanegia]

No, price difference is more important when the cards are compared, at the time of the review.
When you buy the card now, what you read is the reviews from 8 months ago, because no reviewer cares about those cards right now.


nVidia even increased the price of the 8800GT, after most of the reviews were done, saying it was better than the HD3870 for the same price.

Don't you see you make no sense? You read reviews to learn about performance of the cards. You dont' read reviews to know the price of the cards, God save you otherwise. You go to the store or etailer to know the price. I couldn't care less that the GTX260 costed $450 when it launched, I can walk 100 m and get it's 216SP (better) version for 140 euros and that's all that I need to know. Aroud here GTX260 and HD4870 are selling for almost the same price, and its that price after which I would base my purchasing decision, not $450 price found in reviews, that is not true anymore.

What's more important is that prices can change from day to day, in fact, they do, so the price that a reviewer posts means absolutely nothing if a change occurred the next day after he posted his review.

 

[RoutedScripter]

The Frontpage news comments are cut after the #161 post , nothing more is visible after that. Plus the button no were to be found , i have to navigate the whole forum to get to the topic.