Watch_Dogs - Suffering the same issue as Aliens: Colonial Marines?

[Vario]

I don't know how many of you guys remember Black and White but it was the biggest overhyped flop ever. Promised a Lambo and received a Yugo.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

I don't know how many of you guys remember Black and White but it was the biggest overhyped flop ever. Promised a Lambo and received a Yugo.

Peter Molyneux. If I have to say anything else I'm talking to the unitiated.

Molyneux has headed some of the greatest middle finger games ever. Fable fell far short of an "Epic." Black and White wasn't at the level of features that were promised. The Curiosity Cube was the crappiest advertising campaign ever, and brought trolling from an art form to a high art. Godus basically is an exercise in seeing how much a person can pay without ever getting a game.


Assuming that Dungeon Keeper era Molyneux still existed I'd be willing to bet there's only be two games to his credit, that were each genre defining master pieces. As it stands, think promising flying cars and getting a unicycle. Anyone who still takes a Molyneux promise seriously is denying a long track record of over promising and under delivering. This is exactly what I was trying to say, and thank you for putting it far more concisely than I could!

 

[WhiteNoise]

Same thing happened with Forza 5. BIG difference between showed gameplay before release and the actual game.

I'm not sure if I even want to play Watchdogs but in the end as long as it looks better than the ps3 and 360 and has awesome gameplay then whatever.

 

[Vario]

Yep Molyneux is a douchebag. B&W was destined to be a failure: EA Games + Molyneux (Lionshead) = fail.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

UbiSoft comes across with attitude when it comes to PC gamers. One month they will be claiming that 90% of us PC gamers are pirates and then come out a month later and say they want to work closer with PC gamers to give us what we want

actually it was Epic Games (the people behind Unreal Tournament) that said that. They also said they didnt want to make games for a saturated market. I guess pc gamers are real spoilt for choice when it comes to the amount of games available, specially when it comes to 1st or 3rd person shooters.

 

[64K]

Epic might have said it too. I don't recall.

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Ubisoft-Goes-Free-play-Because-95-PC-Gamers-Pirates-46015.html

http://www.dsogaming.com/editorial/...t-investing-in-f2p-model-to-increase-revenue/

I could have offered better sources but work blocks a lot of sites.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/05/19/epic-pc-piracy-drove-us-to-consoles/1

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/syst...uel-shelved-epic-games-blames-pc-pi-29128747/

Reasons why Bulletstorm did poorly:

1. PC market is but a small peice of the cake compared to the console market - sales are obviously not going to be as high
2. PC gamers were made to wait 4 months for a demo after it had already been released for the consoles, and by the time a demo was released, the full game was available.
3. Games For Windows Live - A Thorn in PC gaming's side with love from Microsoft who did nothing with it and left the PC platform to rot while focussing on consoles which of course is where the real money is made. Many people wouldnt of touched Bulletstorm because of GFWL.
4. PC ports aren't really 'PC games' per se~ They are only PC games out of technicality.
5. Douchebag developers/Publishers who are the first to whine and complain about piracy when the games they make aren't as well received as they originally predicted or dont sell well because some of the issues stated above.

::EDIT::


6. Douchebag developers/publishers that cant make a decent game and quickly toss out the 'OMG PIRACY' card and beat a hasty retreat while the community is still standing around wondering what the fuck is going and more or less confused about the current outburst.

-- cant sell a game on the PC? blame piracy! easiest excuse ever and works every time.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

If I were to have pre-ordered Watch Dogs, I could not get my money back after booting it up and discovering that advertisements did not match reality. I couldn't even get store credit from most brick and mortar stores. I will have paid 10 times the price of a discount movie ticket, for an item that was sold to me via lies.

Then sue the publisher for false advertising. I bet you'll lose for the same reason I said: E3 does not show finished products.

I completely agree that gamers have no rights and that's something that needs to be rectified. The rights customers have for physical goods needs to extend to digital goods.

Yep Molyneux is a douchebag. B&W was destined to be a failure: EA Games + Molyneux (Lionshead) = fail.

Black & White was successful which is why it got an expansion and a sequel.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Honestly I think this is all a bit premature over just a few trailers that vary in quality. Look at Metro 2033 PC, then look at it on 360, it's a night and day difference. Even Last Light after getting a bit of a graphics and performance makeover looks yet another notch considerably lower on console, even on PS3.

One can sit there and threaten law suit on speculation, which I feel is silly, or you can wait and see if this discrepancy is last gen/next gen like I'm wondering. The footage above of the PS4 version may look shoddier than what we originally saw, but it doesn't in fact look as bad as some footage we've seen, and appears to be more of a developer demonstration tool than a polished trailer. That's actually giving me confidence that I'm right about the game having a wide range of graphics quality depending on platform.

 

[ViperXTR]

 

[FX-GMC]

All of those "Actual" pics look worse then what I've normally seen. Especially that taco. I've never gotten a crunchy taco that looks like that.

 

[rtwjunkie]

He also says it is wrong to advertise a game based on it's next gen graphics, and then slim them down. It's like having your cake and eating it. If Timegate studios can't get away with it, then nobody should, no matter how good the gameplay is. According to that old chestnut, false advertising is false advertising.

I'm all for gameplay, that's why I still prefer Diablo 2 over Diablo 3. But abusing the hype at E3 by providing a less than actual representation of your game is simply poor conduct.

You know, thinking about it, you're right. I was willing to give them a pass based on the style of gameplay and not worry about graphics, but that's not the issue. They sold us a bill of goods, and now are changing up our order, so yeah, I'm going to have to agree with you, RCoon. If they hadn't shown a graphics wonder at E3, we'd have no issue with what's there now.

 

[RCoon]

All of those "Actual" pics look worse then what I've normally seen. Especially that taco. I've never gotten a crunchy taco that looks like that.

I've always found the people making said burgers are incapable of aiming the burger in the CENTRE of the bun. Always hanging out one side, those pictures make the 17 year old "chefs" look far more accurate than they are in real life. That being said, I haven't ordered fast food in almost a year. The fries taste irradiated.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

In the world of advertising they can make obvious embellishments as per the fast food pics above, or go with the vague approach. What you guys are complaining about is the latter. They never said what platforms the trailers were representing, and it matters a lot, esp now that there is such a broad range of them out there.

I used to think this forum was a notch above most game forums, but often times you see the same conjecture here you do elsewhere. Let's have this conversation again when ALL the platform versions of WD have been released and seen first hand. Only then will any of this be worthy of praise or ridicule.

To put it more simply, you have to have an after pic before you can show before and after comparison shots. Otherwise you're just blindly spouting off.

 

[BiggieShady]

The game has dynamic weather, I suppose reflections on the ground will be visible even on consoles when it's rainy - just like in AC4 : Black Flag. As for smoke effects, detailed physics, bokeh depth of field, subsurface scattering shaders for the skin - that'a all for PC release.
Of course they are going to show the better looking version on E3.
Soon we will see mandatory disclaimers "game will not look like this on all platforms" before every presentation.

 

[FX-GMC]

The game has dynamic weather, I suppose reflections on the ground will be visible even on consoles when it's rainy - just like in AC4 : Black Flag. As for smoke effects, detailed physics, bokeh depth of field, subsurface scattering shaders for the skin - that'a all for PC release.
Of course they are going to show the better looking version on E3.
Soon we will see mandatory disclaimers "game will not look like this on all platforms" before every presentation.

I'd just rather a "PC Footage shown" or a "Game will not look this awesome by the time we release it."

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

In the world of advertising they can make obvious embellishments as per the fast food pics above, or go with the vague approach. What you guys are complaining about is the latter. They never said what platforms the trailers were representing, and it matters a lot, esp now that there is such a broad range of them out there.

I agree with this posting, except for the quoted portion above. Why, scale.

You can purchase a burger, and if it isn't what you paid for get a replacement. I've complained at fast food retailers on multiple occasions, and they have always offered either compensatory food or a refund. You go into a burger joint with the expectation of spending a few bucks, and getting that amount of food. You can argue that the depicted stuff in commercials isn't what you are getting, but there is never an explicit promise that the shown item represents what you will get. Food is crazy like that, but it is also a necessity for living. A starving person won't deny themselves a burger if it isn't aesthetically pleasing.

Gaming is a luxury good. If someone sells me a luxury good I expect what I saw demonstrated being exactly what I will get. I expect this because part of any luxury good is the aesthetic value. If you'd like to argue this please tell me why a white t-shirt at Walmart is $5, while the exact same one endorsed my Kayne West is $100.

Now, aesthetics might not be what are sold to you. This would be a fair point, but video games don't currently exist without a strong core aesthetic component. The graphics are part of selling a video game, just like the meat is a core component of a burger. An intrinsic property of the item is something you have to sell.


Falling back to my previous posts, just shoot a disclaimer into the video. Ubisoft for some reason has forgotten how to do that. A simple "beta footage from a previous generation console" foot note would alleviate most of the rage out there. People would say that it's previous generation, and sweep the visual differences under the rug. The remaining people are going to be angry no matter what, and need to be ignored. Instead, Ubisoft makes the vast majority of people angry and tries to justify the changes by saying "yeah, no, graphics aren't the focus of our next-generation defining game." That kind of mixed message makes too many people angry, and Ubisoft isn't even trying to give people another explanation. This is my problem, and that sort of miscommunication should make a PR person weep blood.



Hopefully all of this is a speculative circus. I'd have said that was a reasonable conclusion 18 months ago. With far too many recent miss-fires, I can't help but to feel this game is going to be the next problem. Ubisoft is doing nothing to alleviate this fear, despite it being so very easy to do. That kind of crass disregard is either because this game is really amazing, or they're already girding their loins for the oncoming baseball bat to the groin.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Gaming is a luxury good. If someone sells me a luxury good I expect what I saw demonstrated being exactly what I will get. I expect this because part of any luxury good is the aesthetic value. If you'd like to argue this please tell me why a white t-shirt at Walmart is $5, while the exact same one endorsed my Kayne West is $100.

What I'd rather argue, and already have, is more to the point. Type of product matters. With burgers and T-Shirts there is no range of systems they're played on as with games, and those trailers you're complaining about make no claim as to what system it will look like that on, or even IF it will look exactly like that.

You've done nothing to address that, you just said, why, scale, which is too vague to even make sense of. They ARE in fact scaling their product, more than many do. The only thing in question is what the final product will actually look like, how the look of it will vary on each system, and port quality.

Again, this is all premature and thus conjecture. I like to complain after I know for sure there's a problem. Your willingness to ask for replacements and refunds at fast food places when most know and accept the product served is more flat and less voluptuous than the ads tells me you're are obsessive about the final product looking good.

Problem is, this is not a final product, just trailers, and your preparing to go to war about it before even seeing the product makes you look not just obsessive, but neurotic.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

What I'd rather argue, and already have, is more to the point. Type of product matters. With burgers and T-Shirts there is no range of systems they're played on as with games, and those trailers you're complaining about make no claim as to what system it will look like that on, or even IF it will look exactly like that.

You've done nothing to address that, you just said, why, scale, which is too vague to even make sense of. They ARE in fact scaling their product, more than many do. The only thing in question is what the final product will actually look like, how the look of it will vary on each system, and port quality.

Again, this is all premature and thus conjecture. I like to complain after I know for sure there's a problem. Your willingness to ask for replacements and refunds at fast food places when most know and accept the product served is more flat and less voluptuous than the ads tells me you're are obsessive about the final product looking good.

Problem is, this is not a final product, just trailers, and your preparing to go to war about it before even seeing the product makes you look not just obsessive, but neurotic.

Allow me to state the point then. I take umbrage with Ubisoft running an absolute sham of a PR campaign. Making a product I require, for a few dollars, is something on a completely different scale than asking me to pony up $60 for a luxury good.

All of my anger would be dispelled if either Ubisoft owned up to a more limited scale, or if their PR had some consistency. When they respond to claims of decreased visuals, after selling the game based largely upon the more impressive visuals of a "demo," that is lying. When they try to further respond publicly to this criticism by saying that visuals aren't what they are selling, it is a lie. When, after all of this, you consider that the game is already significantly past its release date it's impossible to reasonably offer Ubisoft the benefit of the doubt.


You've implied that I want to go to war. I'm not sure why exactly you've gone to that extreme. I want people to stop pre-ordering these games. I want the games industry to be held responsible for selling people one thing, delivering another, and then calling us all pirates. I want crappy games to fail, and good games to sell.

If that is unreasonable, or is a call for war, then I am one bellicose bastard. Crazy enough, I think what I ask for is reasonable. If the games industry was held to the standards of, say almost any manufacturer, they'd be forced to replace defective goods. In stark contrast, a game that does not deliver on initial promises is simply swept under the rug. If I have to remind you about the Simcity feature shutdown then you're living under a bigger rock than I. These failures are becoming more and more common, but people still tolerate this crap. That is my issue, and why I believe no quarter can be allowed.

You bring up the fair point that this is a demo. It would be fair to argue this point, assuming that demos could be trusted. Duke Nukem taught us this was unreasonable, and Aliens: Colonial Marines proved that a demo was generally the best foot you could theoretically put forward (even if only once). Assuming that a demo is mediocre, and that is the best foot forward even after an extended delay, then pre-ordering should be the last thing people do. The fact that people don't cancel orders en-mass completely baffles and enrages me. This is what I rail against, and why I take an aggressive stance against this crap.



EDIT:
I earlier stated that this could be easily settled by Ubisoft. Dark Souls II recently did this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...s-II-Was-Unplayable-Before-Graphics-Downgrade

That is what I'd like to see from Ubisoft. Confirmation, admittance, and ownership. Nothing unreasonable.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

You haven't even enough evidence to call the marketing of this product a "sham", so you really have no point.

I'm beginning to think you don't even understand what conjecture is.

 

[HammerON]

Enough of this banter. It is time to move along...

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

You haven't even enough evidence to call the marketing of this product a "sham", so you really have no point.

I'm beginning to think you don't even understand what conjecture is.

To conjecture is to take what facts you have, and extrapolate a logical conclusion from them in order to predict some future outcome.

My facts are:
1) Watch Dogs has already been significantly delayed.
2) Trailers presented at E3 generally show games in the best possible light, not in a realistic day to day use kind of light.
3) Ubisoft has a history of better trailers than actual game performance: http://gearnuke.com/history-ubisoft-game-reveals-watch-dogs-game-receive-downgrade-visual/
4) What I see in E3 versus recent trailers is less than impressive (this is arguable, but Ubisoft hasn't taken the most basic steps to dispel this view).
5) The developer has already gone on record saying the 2012 preview was premature http://www.ubergizmo.com/2014/03/wa...elt-too-early-according-to-creative-director/.


Combining these 5 points, I make the logical extrapolation that:
A) Watch Dogs will not look as good as the trailer.
B) A significant portion of the game was poorly planned or encountering massive issues, as an almost 6 month delay (Nov '13-May '14) has been required to get something Ubisoft believes is release worthy.

To extrapolation A, I hope we have no argument. It is a relatively easy to support idea, and isn't ground breaking. I hold that against most games, because any falsehood is a lie whether it is expected or not.

Extrapolation B is where I have the most problem, and we seem to disagree. The logic here is still relatively simple. You demonstrate a game in 2012, which should mean you have something worth showing the public. Let's say you slap that demo together in 3 months, on a pre-alpha level. No dynamic actions, everything scripted, and visuals that are worse than the ones you take another 15-18 months to polish. That I can respect. What has been delivered is a 2012 trailer that looks better than the 2014 demonstrations. Going backwards in visual quality, after a longer than usual game development cycle, should be worrisome. Despite this, people still have this game on pre-order. Did Duke and Aliens teach people nothing? Can people really not wait 2 days for reviews to come out post launch? Are we really that gullible?

Answering the questions that extrapolation B requires is not reflecting well on us. I am many things, but tolerating this kins of inanity is not something I can do. Consider my ire raised, but having some hope that this is just poor PR. Recent examples point to other more distressing conclusions, which is what frightens me most.


Edit:
Moving on, does anyone still play Colonial Marines? I'm looking for a white elephant gift with some functionality, and it seems to be a viable option. I'd like to know that it was before I pull the trigger and buy it though.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure they never specified why they delayed the game. We don't know if it was gameplay related, inadequate content, not enough art assets, the engine not being up to the job, issues with a specific release (Xbox, PlayStation, and/or PC), AI problems, or bug squashing. What we know is that:
1) Watch Dogs is a new IP (always risky by its nature)
2) Its a new or heavily modified engine.
3) That it is ambitious (a presumably Saints Row/Grand Theft Auto/Sleeping Dogs scale world and using mechanics Ubisoft hasn't dabbled in before like hacking and a reactive AI).
4) The game has been at some level of development for a long time.

I'm not going to pass judgment on a product none of us has played yet.

Disclaimer: I early access and Kickstart games but rarely preorder.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

I'm not going to pass judgment on a product none of us has played yet.

Which is my whole point, and I agree with Hammer, a poor dead horse is being beaten here without enough knowledge to justify it.

I'll also add that a big part of what's new is their talk of implementing player controlled characters randomly being able to break into your sp session. I really don't get how that's going to work, or if those whom would rather play just sp can disable it.

@lilhass,

Spoiler

And BTW, the primary definition of conjecture is "an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof". This is not to be confused with theories that are widely accepted by their respective communities.

More importantly, in this case conjecture applies to something there's literally NO proof for, so it doesn't even quality as conjecture really. It's all speculation until we see the final product. So basically you're indulging in worse than conjecture, because there's not enough info on this specific product to even base a theory on. It's cynicism and speculation based on past experiences with completely different titles. A virtual Ubi vendetta of sorts. Personally I don't think Ubi deserve that. They've put out some pretty decent titles.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Which is my whole point, and I agree with Hammer, a poor dead horse is being beaten here without enough knowledge to justify it.

I'll also add that a big part of what's new is their talk of implementing player controlled characters randomly being able to break into your sp session. I really don't get how that's going to work, or if those whom would rather play just sp can disable it.

@lilhass,

Spoiler

And BTW, the primary definition of conjecture is "an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof". This is not to be confused with theories that are widely accepted by their respective communities.

More importantly, in this case conjecture applies to something there's literally NO proof for, so it doesn't even quality as conjecture really. It's all speculation until we see the final product. So basically you're indulging in worse than conjecture, because there's not enough info on this specific product to even base a theory on. It's cynicism and speculation based on past experiences with completely different titles. A virtual Ubi vendetta of sorts. Personally I don't think Ubi deserve that. They've put out some pretty decent titles.

So, about that question on if the updates have made Aliens worth a $10 price tag.... Anyone? It's on sale at humble bundle now, and I was actually searching for an answer...

Spoiler

If you want semantics, fine. Let's try Google-fu.
noun
noun: conjecture; plural noun: conjectures

1. 1.
   an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
   "conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
   synonyms:speculation, guesswork, surmise, fancy, presumption, assumption, theory, postulation, supposition;More
   inference, (an) extrapolation;
   an estimate;
   informala guesstimate, a shot in the dark, a ballpark figure
   "the information is merely conjecture"
   antonyms:fact
   • an unproven mathematical or scientific theorem.
     "the Goldbach conjecture"
   • (in textual criticism) the suggestion or reconstruction of a reading of a text not present in the original source.

verb
verb: conjecture; 3rd person present: conjectures; past tense: conjectured; past participle: conjectured; gerund or present participle: conjecturing
1.
form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information.
"he conjectured the existence of an otherwise unknown feature"
synonyms:guess, speculate, surmise, infer, fancy, imagine, believe, think, suspect, presume, assume, hypothesize, supposeMore
"I conjectured that the game was over"
antonyms:know


As stipulated, I base my conclusions on logical extrapolations, and not facts. Please reread post 48. If you see where I said this game is factually crap, then I will eat my words. I stated that I have these facts, and I am extrapolating these conclusions based upon them. That method of utilizing surrounding data, to extrapolate logical conclusions, is by nature a conjecture.

To the point, your conjecture is that we wait and give the benefit of doubt. My conjecture is that people should react to this, and cancel pre-orders.

Neither conjecture is based on 100% accurate facts. You can't really have accurate facts until the game is no longer being updated, which won't presumably be for at least a year post launch. By then you could have wasted $60. By cancelling that pre-order you don't get to play day 1, but also don't have a purchase that you may regret. Is it so unreasonable to remove a Gangrenous pinky, in order to prevent the disease from consuming your arm? Yes, I could theoretically not have Gangreen, but the risk to reward for not removing the pinky is weighted in favor of its removal.


This said, whatever you want to say going forward will not be answered, I tried to stop arguing, but apparently didn't make intentions clear. Allow me to rectify that.

You win, I stop giving a crap and bow to your point. This is taking more effort than this crap deserves. If you are so dead set on a pre-order then you can keep your pre-order. If the game isn't as good as promised or demonstrated you have already locked in your course.