MinMax Buid - Your feedback is needed!

[Ruszli]

Looking for the Optimal Performance-Size-Price Ratio​

Finally got a decent job and with all the upcoming magnificent hardware releases I am planning to build my "dream" system that won't necessarily cost me a liver, my pet cat and my soul (who am I kidding, I already sold it to the PC enthusiast devil).

This may not be the most popular opinion out there, but I envy the console users for having a piece of hardware that is compact and looks incredibly sharp. Currently I am an owner of a CM HAF case which is freaking huge, heavy and loud considering that I also have CM Nepton 240M installed. I have simply gotten sick of the high caliber cases and that is why I decided to go for a SFF build. The caveat here is that a boring black cube just won't do it for me (e.g.: the Cooler Master Elite 130), I want something with style, something that I found visually appealing.

However, I also have a thirst for high performance - I want the best FPS I can get in the games I play. My goal therefore is to pack the most power in the smallest yet still stylish case out there, preferably while staying under 1600-2000 EUR.


Case: Corsair Bulldog Chassis VS Corsair Clear 400C VS In Win 805I VS Bitfenix Pandora Core Window
Mobo: Asus Z170I ITX VS ASRock H110-DS/Hyper VS ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 VS Gigabyte GA-Z170N-Gaming 5 VS MSI Z170I GAMING PRO AC
PSU: Corsair SF600 600-Watt 80 Plus Gold Power Supply

CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-6700K
CPU Cooling: Corsair Hydro Series H5 SF CPU Liquid Cooler
GPU: GeForce GTX 1070 SEA HAWK X

RAM: G.SKILL TridentZ F4-3600C15D-16GTZ
Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [Games and Stuff]
Storage 2: Samsung 950 PRO 256GB M.2-2280 [OS]
Storage 3: Western Digital WD10J31X 1 TB Hybrid VS Seagate Hybrid Drive ST2000DX001 2TB [Media]

Alternative route: It could be a possibility to keep my current Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB as the OS drive and my 1 TB WD Blue for games. This would save me a lot of money and open up a route to go with the ROG Maximus VIII Impact MOBO (as far as I know, it has no M.2 slot). -> Not an option anymore.

Nothing is set in stone and I am not necessarily biased when it comes to brands. I simply want the best performance/price/features, thus the sticker on the hardware won't make a huge difference. Also, keep in mind that I am in the EU, so for prices and availability please check amazon.de.

Build path
1. New GPU [First Month]
2. Possibly an Acer Predator Z1 (HD or UHD) [Second Month]
3. Rest of the system [Second to Third Month]

I would welcome a healthy discussion and debate, so please do not be afraid to throw out any crazy suggestions (even an AMD GPU + Freesync combo, or a Medium sized case)! I am open to all ideas as I want every purchase of every part to be based on a rational decision that factors in most of the aforementioned variables.

 

[Ruszli]

Turns out the ROG Maximus VIII Impact would not even fit the Bulldog, thus making my decision that much easier (why they put a U.2 on it in the first place is beyond me).

At any rate I am still having problems picking the best MOBO for the system. Any ideas?

 

[xLegendary]

I think the ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac is compatible, and its a good mobo...

 

[ne6togadno]

http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Chassis/Cube_Case_/_/C_00002373/Core_V1/Design.htm

 

[deemon]

At any rate I am still having problems picking the best MOBO for the system. Any ideas?

Not really... I bought last summer 6700K and it's still sitting on my shelf almost a year later because the current crop of ITX boards is utter crap or aren't good enough from one or another aspect. One doesn't have Intel NIC (Gigabyte), another has retarded CPU socket placement (ASRock; ECS), 3rd had U.2 instead of M.2 (ASUS), 4th doesn't have 2280 M.2 slot (MSI) but only 2242 and 2260 ... or no M.2 at all (EVGA), 5th doesn't have DTS Connect for my 5.1 sound (Gigabyte; MSI; EVGA)... 6th doesn't have USB 3.1 type C; 7th has some frigging massive DAC/in-built-extra-raiser-card-soundcard (ASUS again); most don't support any decent speed 2x16GB memory modules, none of them have Thunderbolt. And all of them have this retarded WIFI shit that just wastes space on motherboard and is UTTERLY USELESS for any desktop. All shit!

Actually thinking about waiting for Z270 (Kaby Lake) boards. Unless we actually get some decent U.2 drives that aren't overpriced intel / enterprise (year later, we now may actually see few new OEMs with them... like Galax and Plextor).

It's like they once upon a time, they decided that "ITX is gamer's portable laptop replacement" or something ... whereas they forgot to update the concept to this decade and now we actually have gamers laptops and people want ITX in their livingroom (HTPC / Steam machine) or just smaller Desktop to take less space ... in one spot.... hard wired to ethernet (no need for wifi ffs) ... and to surround sound systems (not some fracking headphones DAC... who uses headphones to play games ffs ... unless they are at some lanparty ... which also kind of died out pretty much last millennia when we got broadband to our homes.)

(why they put a U.2 on it in the first place is beyond me).

Because they are ASUS. They don't think... they just do. And because they can. Or because intel bribed them!

Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [Games and Stuff]
Storage 2: Samsung 950 PRO 256GB M.2-2280 [OS]
Storage 3: Western Digital WD10J31X 1 TB Hybrid VS Seagate Hybrid Drive ST2000DX001 2TB

Care to explain to me, why do you want to put your OS to ultrafast storage? it's really really silly, unless you spend half of your day turning your computer off and on.... and then off and then on.... and then off and then on. For example... I do turn computer on once a year... maybe twice... yeah, I do reboots ... once a month maybe... do I need to have OS on ultrafast? not really... because if you have enough memory all the drivers and OS stuff stays usually in memory where it's even faster... ... and usually on your OS drive is also your user folders with local Google Drive / OneDrive / DropBox cache.... which all are usually rather massive (for me at least) ... and why would you waste your more expensive ultrafast storage for this? Makes no sense.

What would make sense however, is if you bought a 64-256GB ordinary SSD (850 EVO?) for your OS and programs (office, program files)... maybe some slower pace games and then bought a 512/1024GB ultrafast M.2 for your actual games with many loading screens and stuff.

And what for you actually plan to use your Storage 3? I would not put an old fashioned drive into ITX at all (noise ... and vibration... and noise from vibration) and for 1/2TB ... buy another 850 EVO or 2. ... unless you need massive space... and on this case I wouldn't consider 1/2TB but more like 6/8/10 TB. or NAS in another room / closet / cupboard (you know... to eliminate any noise).

TL;DR:
Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [OS and Stuff]
Storage 2: Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2-2280 [Games ... priorities must be set straight here, mon! ]
Storage 3: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [more Stuff]
(Storage 4: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [more Stuff])
(Storage 5: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [even more Stuff])

OR

Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [OS and Stuff]
Storage 2: Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2-2280 [Games ... priorities must be set straight here, mon! ]
Storage 3: 4-bay NAS with 6/8/10TB WD Reds ... in a cupboard.

 

[Ruszli]

I think the ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac is compatible, and its a good mobo...

Yes indeed! I've been debating between the ASRock and the Asus mobo, but I might just go with the upcoming H110-DS/Hyper for non-k OC to save some money.

http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Chassis/Cube_Case_/_/C_00002373/Core_V1/Design.htm

I know these cases are super popular for most enthusiasts, but they don't impress me much -> I updated the build options to showcase what I have in mind.

!

Will answer to you tomorrow mate. I am kind of in a hurry and you do make some great points!

 

[deemon]

I think the ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac is compatible, and its a good mobo...

Yes. This would be the motherboard I would choose on your case because it's the best ... my own sad problem tho is that I want to fit Noctua NH-D14 into my build (don't ask) and ASRocks board has slightly different CPU socket location of the rest, thus making me unable to fit this said cooler. Otherwise it's indeed the best selection!

Yes indeed! I've been debating between the ASRock and the Asus mobo, but I might just go with the upcoming H110-DS/Hyper for non-k OC to save some money.

Really hard to say at the moment, because we don't even know the final specs for this.
However if you believe tomshardware info, there might not be M.2; no USB type-C; some questionable realtek NIC; non-K OC might be there, but it might not be either ... or after some firmware upgrade...

 

[BiggieShady]

I bought last summer 6700K and it's still sitting on my shelf almost a year later because reasons

Ouch. I never thought I'd read something like that.

 

[Shou Miko]

have u considered the Asus Z170i Pro Gaming board?

I have the board and I am happy with it, it does everything it should for a ITX board only minus is the Qualcomm Atheros wifi card that Asus has chosen to be bundled too many driver problems for many ppl the newest or oldest driver doesn't fixed it, changed mine to a Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 3260 and now it works no problems

Sexy Hardware Close-Up Pic Clubhouse.

 

[Ruszli]

Not really... I bought last summer 6700K and it's still sitting on my shelf almost a year later because the current crop of ITX boards is utter crap or aren't good enough from one or another aspect. One doesn't have Intel NIC (Gigabyte), another has retarded CPU socket placement (ASRock; ECS), 3rd had U.2 instead of M.2 (ASUS), 4th doesn't have 2280 M.2 slot (MSI) but only 2242 and 2260 ... or no M.2 at all (EVGA), 5th doesn't have DTS Connect for my 5.1 sound (Gigabyte; MSI; EVGA)... 6th doesn't have USB 3.1 type C; 7th has some frigging massive DAC/in-built-extra-raiser-card-soundcard (ASUS again); most don't support any decent speed 2x16GB memory modules, none of them have Thunderbolt. And all of them have this retarded WIFI shit that just wastes space on motherboard and is UTTERLY USELESS for any desktop. All shit!

It seems like you do know some stuff about MOBOs. What is wrong with the CPU placement on the ASRock board? And I may have missed something, but wouldn't the Asus Z170I be the best choice out of all the ITX Z170 MOBOs?

Actually thinking about waiting for Z270 (Kaby Lake) boards. Unless we actually get some decent U.2 drives that aren't overpriced intel / enterprise (year later, we now may actually see few new OEMs with them... like Galax and Plextor).

Because they are ASUS. They don't think... they just do. And because they can. Or because intel bribed them!

I had the impression that U.2 is just a dead end and ASUS made the wrong bet.

It's like they once upon a time, they decided that "ITX is gamer's portable laptop replacement" or something ... whereas they forgot to update the concept to this decade and now we actually have gamers laptops and people want ITX in their livingroom (HTPC / Steam machine) or just smaller Desktop to take less space ... in one spot.... hard wired to ethernet (no need for wifi ffs) ... and to surround sound systems (not some fracking headphones DAC... who uses headphones to play games ffs ... unless they are at some lanparty ... which also kind of died out pretty much last millennia when we got broadband to our homes.)

I do not actually mind the wifi, imo it is a nice asset to have. And I have to surprise you but most gamers do use a headset! Not everyone is a streamer or an audiophile.

Care to explain to me, why do you want to put your OS to ultrafast storage? it's really really silly, unless you spend half of your day turning your computer off and on.... and then off and then on.... and then off and then on. For example... I do turn computer on once a year... maybe twice... yeah, I do reboots ... once a month maybe... do I need to have OS on ultrafast? not really... because if you have enough memory all the drivers and OS stuff stays usually in memory where it's even faster... ... and usually on your OS drive is also your user folders with local Google Drive / OneDrive / DropBox cache.... which all are usually rather massive (for me at least) ... and why would you waste your more expensive ultrafast storage for this? Makes no sense.

What would make sense however, is if you bought a 64-256GB ordinary SSD (850 EVO?) for your OS and programs (office, program files)... maybe some slower pace games and then bought a 512/1024GB ultrafast M.2 for your actual games with many loading screens and stuff.

And what for you actually plan to use your Storage 3? I would not put an old fashioned drive into ITX at all (noise ... and vibration... and noise from vibration) and for 1/2TB ... buy another 850 EVO or 2. ... unless you need massive space... and on this case I wouldn't consider 1/2TB but more like 6/8/10 TB. or NAS in another room / closet / cupboard (you know... to eliminate any noise).

TL;DR:
Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [OS and Stuff]
Storage 2: Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2-2280 [Games ... priorities must be set straight here, mon! ]
Storage 3: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [more Stuff]
(Storage 4: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [more Stuff])
(Storage 5: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [even more Stuff])

OR

Storage 1: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 1TB 2.5" [OS and Stuff]
Storage 2: Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2-2280 [Games ... priorities must be set straight here, mon! ]
Storage 3: 4-bay NAS with 6/8/10TB WD Reds ... in a cupboard.

Is it silly to use an M.2 as a boot drive? Probably, but I want my boot times to be as short as possible and I want my programs to be as responsive as possible (like browsers). I already have a 850 EVO 250GB as my OS drive, so I figured why not go an extra step further and get the best stuff out there.

I do actually agree with you that I should put my games on the fastest drive but the Samsung 950 PRO 512GB is just way out of my budget. The most I can afford is a 1 TB 850 EVO (I am not paying for a PRO either) on top of the 250GB 950.

So what about that laptop SSHD I am planning to use? Well it is just the perfect performance/price ratio storage solution for media (movies, music, gameplay videos) right now. 2TB is plenty for this purpose - at least for me - and a 2,5" drive should not cause much vibration or noise problems.

The whole storage layout is based on the amount of money I am comfortable spending on these drives. They all have a specific use that comes with performance requirements. I want my games to load fast, but I want my OS to load even faster and I don't care much for the media files' transfer speeds.

 

[Ruszli]

Yes. This would be the motherboard I would choose on your case because it's the best ... my own sad problem tho is that I want to fit Noctua NH-D14 into my build (don't ask) and ASRocks board has slightly different CPU socket location of the rest, thus making me unable to fit this said cooler. Otherwise it's indeed the best selection!

Really hard to say at the moment, because we don't even know the final specs for this.
However if you believe tomshardware info, there might not be M.2; no USB type-C; some questionable realtek NIC; non-K OC might be there, but it might not be either ... or after some firmware upgrade...

Fortunately I do not have that problem so it is a toss up between the Asus Z170I ITX and the ASRock Fatal1ty Z170.

If the ASRock H110-DS/Hyper does not have an M.2 Slot it is immediately out of the picture. Non-K OC should be there until Kaby Lake arrives and then I could always get a 7700k to upgrade form a 6600.

have u considered the Asus Z170i Pro Gaming board?

I have the board and I am happy with it, it does everything it should for a ITX board only minus is the Qualcomm Atheros wifi card that Asus has chosen to be bundled too many driver problems for many ppl the newest or oldest driver doesn't fixed it, changed mine to a Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 3260 and now it works no problems

Sexy Hardware Close-Up Pic Clubhouse.

That board is actually the first on the list .

 

[Shou Miko]

That board is actually the first on the list .

ah just couldn't see sry u listed Asus Z170 ITX

and about SSHD don't waste ur money on it, they ain't worth it bcs that small SSD in them ain't being used as a proper cache anyway, Windows just moves the files u use the most on to them for faster access, and if u want to save money buy a 250GB and a 1TB EVO and call it a day, i want smth simular one day.

Right now i use a 850 EVO 250gb as a boot drive and a Intel 530 480GB SSD for games and I come from a WD Enterprise 1TB disk with 128MB cache and 7200rpm that did a wonderful job.

WD Enterprise 1TB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236727


oh and forgot to say if u want to use M.2 on the Asus Z170I Pro Gaming ur GFX will only run at x8 since Asus build it to use the proper PCI-Express lanes from the CPU but I hope u already know this

 

[Ruszli]

ah just couldn't see sry u listed Asus Z170 ITX

and about SSHD don't waste ur money on it, they ain't worth it bcs that small SSD in them ain't being used as a proper cache anyway, Windows just moves the files u use the most on to them for faster access, and if u want to save money buy a 250GB and a 1TB EVO and call it a day, i want smth simular one day.

Right now i use a 850 EVO 250gb as a boot drive and a Intel 530 480GB SSD for games and I come from a WD Enterprise 1TB disk with 128MB cache and 7200rpm that did a wonderful job.

WD Enterprise 1TB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236727

Well I could always just reuse my 1TB WD Blue and 850 EVO 250. Will think about it for sure.

oh and forgot to say if u want to use M.2 on the Asus Z170I Pro Gaming ur GFX will only run at x8 since Asus build it to use the proper PCI-Express lanes from the CPU but I hope u already know this

You see this is why I posted the build! I thought the M.2 uses 4 lanes and since the 6700k has 20 lanes, 16 should still be available for the GPU. What am I missing here?

 

[Shou Miko]

Well I could always just reuse my 1TB WD Blue and 850 EVO 250. Will think about it for sure.

This is up to u, I won't recommend a Blue drive had a lot of them failing a work more than Green drives and Black also die fast sometimes that's why I took this 1TB datacenter rated drive.

You see this is why I posted the build! I thought the M.2 uses 4 lanes and since the 6700k has 20 lanes, 16 should still be available for the GPU. What am I missing here?

Don't shoot me here I think I heard it from JJ from Asus but I am not sure, they could have gone using the chipset's x4 PCI-E Lane that it offers since this board is packed with features that uses a lot of PCI-E lanes.

Have also been thinking about m2 myself when they fall in price for a 950 Pro not the EVO bcs that runs the same speed as sata.

 

[deemon]

It seems like you do know some stuff about MOBOs. What is wrong with the CPU placement on the ASRock board? And I may have missed something, but wouldn't the Asus Z170I be the best choice out of all the ITX Z170 MOBOs?

It does not have:
1) good fast big module memory support. (VRM-s are way poorer than on Impact) For example best 2x16GB kit this ASUS 170I Pro Gaming can support officially only 2666MHz ... whereas Impact can work with 3400MHz 2x16GB kit. ... Fatal1ty can officially support 3200MHz.
2) DTS Connect nor DDL (for real time encoding any and every multichannel audio into 5.1 DTS / DD stream) for slightly older surround sound connectivity. (I don't have HDMI capable receiver... I want to use optical SPDIF for 5.1 ... sadly only two Z170 ITX boards support DTS Connect (0 for DDL) ... ASRock Fatal1ty and ASUS Impact)
3) USB type-C ...

I do need 2) ... and 1) and 3) are nice to have...
Also I want to fit Noctua NH-D14 which sadly doesn't fit to my case when attached to Fatal1ty motherboard because it will go few cm over the edge of the motherboard and I would have to cut an opening to case bottom for the radiator... which I would not do. So the only option left sadly is ASUS Impact... which I have also not yet bought because there aren't any competition for U.2 consumer drives that would come anywhere near Samsung 950 Pro M.2 prices.

I had the impression that U.2 is just a dead end and ASUS made the wrong bet.

also I had that feeling at start... then I googled a bit and found this:
http://www.span.com/category/U-2-NVMe-2-5-SSD-Intel~1431
http://www.span.com/category/U-2-NVMe-2-5-SSD-HGST~1435
http://www.span.com/category/U-2-NVMe-2-5-SSD-OCZ~1432

the problem? price obviously as all of those seemed to be enterprise drives. also availability ...

However Intel's consumer U.2 monopoly is about to change it seems:
http://www.techpowerup.com/223175/plextor-ep2-series-m-2-and-u-2-ssds-pictured
http://www.techpowerup.com/222926/galax-hall-of-fame-u-2-m-2-and-pcie-ssds-spied

 

[Ruszli]

This is up to u, I won't recommend a Blue drive had a lot of them failing a work more than Green drives and Black also die fast sometimes that's why I took this 1TB datacenter rated drive.

Don't shoot me here I think I heard it from JJ from Asus but I am not sure, they could have gone using the chipset's x4 PCI-E Lane that it offers since this board is packed with features that uses a lot of PCI-E lanes.

Have also been thinking about m2 myself when they fall in price for a 950 Pro not the EVO bcs that runs the same speed as sata.

I already have a WD Blue, it works just fine.

As far as I know the GPU should still have 16x even with an m.2, but I might write an email to support just to be sure.

It does not have:
1) good fast big module memory support. (VRM-s are way poorer than on Impact) For example best 2x16GB kit this ASUS 170I Pro Gaming can support officially only 2666MHz ... whereas Impact can work with 3400MHz 2x16GB kit. ... Fatal1ty can officially support 3200MHz.
2) DTS Connect nor DDL (for real time encoding any and every multichannel audio into 5.1 DTS / DD stream) for slightly older surround sound connectivity. (I don't have HDMI capable receiver... I want to use optical SPDIF for 5.1 ... sadly only two Z170 ITX boards support DTS Connect (0 for DDL) ... ASRock Fatal1ty and ASUS Impact)
3) USB type-C ...

I do need 2) ... and 1) and 3) are nice to have...
Also I want to fit Noctua NH-D14 which sadly doesn't fit to my case when attached to Fatal1ty motherboard because it will go few cm over the edge of the motherboard and I would have to cut an opening to case bottom for the radiator... which I would not do. So the only option left sadly is ASUS Impact... which I have also not yet bought because there aren't any competition for U.2 consumer drives that would come anywhere near Samsung 950 Pro M.2 prices.

So what if I don't need those features (2 and 3)? I do however care about quality components that facilitate overclocking, sound quality and wireless connection.

also I had that feeling at start... then I googled a bit and found this:
http://www.span.com/category/U-2-NVMe-2-5-SSD-Intel~1431
http://www.span.com/category/U-2-NVMe-2-5-SSD-HGST~1435
http://www.span.com/category/U-2-NVMe-2-5-SSD-OCZ~1432

the problem? price obviously as all of those seemed to be enterprise drives. also availability ...

However Intel's consumer U.2 monopoly is about to change it seems:
http://www.techpowerup.com/223175/plextor-ep2-series-m-2-and-u-2-ssds-pictured
http://www.techpowerup.com/222926/galax-hall-of-fame-u-2-m-2-and-pcie-ssds-spied

Have you seen Intel's roadmap that was recently posted on TPU? It does not seem like they are planning to release any new u.2 drives, only m.2 ones. Pretty reassuring to avoid the Impact.