The problem with the latency / lag and 5.1 Audio Out - and the modded drivers

[[S]]

Sound, especially on the pc, is creating lag for various reasons which results in, the worst case, not beeing lip sync which is easily noticeable when watching movies - but in a lesser way noticeable when playing games. Its a subjective view if you notice this delay - me for myself, beeing a gamer, am quiet picky. In my experience the delay is noticeable starting with 15ms for SOME people.

my goal: 5.1 latency free pc audio with a av receiver.

In my testings it was not possible to archive anything like latency free audio output with the modded realtek drivers.

Summary
There a 3 sources to produce lag:
- Audio Source: Audio processing on the pc side
- Audio Destination: Audio processing on the output (avr) side
- Connection: Compressing and Decompressing for transferring the audio

Connection
As a result TosLink 5.1. is the worst connection method - it needs compression and this takes time.
5.1 Analog Audio is a good option - but modern AVR missing multichannel analog in and even my Denon 3010 got one, there is no audio post processing possible.
HDMI is the best option: no compression, digital and AVR can process the sound to make it sound really good. (depending on the avr)

Audio Source
Soundblaster Z 5.1 Analog = 40ms latency
Soundblaster Xi-Fi 5.1 Analog = 80ms latency
Mainboard 5.1 Analog (realtek), modded driver = 80+ms latency
Mainboard 5.1 Analog (realtek), default driver = no latency
HDMI, no driver processing = no latency

Audio Destination
AVR pure direct = 0-20ms, depends on the avr
AVR processing (default) = pure direct + 20-30ms


Test-Method
I tested several setups and measured this delay the following way:
I clicked within a "music-keyboard" software on a pianokey which results in one tone audio output. While doing this, i recorded the audio output with my android phone,uploaded the wav file and looked at the time between the mouse-click-sound and the audio output graphically.
The "baseline" (best possible result) was measured on a notebook with its integrated speakers (win10 default audio driver).

Hardware
MSI Ace Z390 with Realtek ACL 1220 Chip
Creative Soundbaster Z / XiFi USB
Denon AVR 3010 / Denon AVR x3100W / Teufel Decoderstation 5
Samsung Galaxy S9
Nvidia RTX 2070 Super (for hdmi audio out)

Software
Clean Windows 10
OceanAudio Wav Editor
X-VisualMusic "Piano Software"
Soundrecorder on the Android Device


As a result i go with the hdmi avr default processing solution.
Direct ("pure direct") passthrough on the avr side results in almost no latency (at least on the denon 3010) but sounds much worse than with processing.
Using anything like modded realtek driver, TosLink or even Creative Soundblaster (behind a AVR which additionally adds latency) is not the best way to get latency free pc audio. At least for gaming.

PC Audio Out	Driver	Input	Input Mode	difference to baseline	comment
Notebook	Windows Realtek	NB Speaker		0​	+-10
HDMI	Nvidia, no enhancements	Denon 3010	Direct	0​	+-10
HDMI	Nvidia	Denon 3010	Default	25​	Denon processing is adding 20-25ms, Nvidia Audio enhancements 5ms
Realtek Analog 5.1	Windows Default	Denon 3010	Direct	0​	same with HDMI
SBZ Analog 5.1	Creative	Denon 3010	Direct	40​	Creative Driver is adding 40ms
SBZ TosLink	Creative	Denon 3010	Direct	too much	Creative Driver is adding 40ms + TosLink compress
Realtek Analog 5.1	AAF 6.0.89000	Denon 3010	Direct	100​	Modded Driver Adds 100ms
HDMI	Nvidia, no enhancements	Denon X3100W	Direct	20​	Denon X3100W is adding 20 by default, without processing
HDMI	Nvidia, no enhancements	Denon X3100W	Game	43​	Denon X3100W is adding 20 by default + 20ms in GameMode (+20ms in normal mode)

 

[CityCultivator]

Excellent research.
Most modded Realtek drivers have a lot of processing, thus high latency.
I use compressed spdif, but from hdmi (a hdmi>spdif box is used). Htib has no hdmi in.
Only audio enhancer I use is Dolby atmos' DSU for upscaling stereo to 5.1
In this limited configuration latency does not feel terrible and upscaling quality is much better than the htib processing.

 

[[S]]

Realtek direct Toslink compression and the decompression on the other side should be something like 40-60ms. As long as you dont use a creative soundblaster i think it might be ok.

By the way: Has your htib multichannel in?

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Yeah audio can cause "bad"latency and sometimes can be easily fixed just with the different driver also network adapter or usb port and peripherals can cause the latency issue....anyway there is an excellent free program LatencyMon where you can check your PC latency's and see if you have any issues that need to be fixed......

 

[EarthDog]

So, are you saying the best (lowest latency) is using onboard audio and it's natural processing or hdmi to a receiver? Cant say this is surprising...

..thanks?!

 

[[S]]

Cant say that a coment like this on an Internet Forum is suprising, earthdog.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

So, are you saying the best (lowest latency) is using onboard audio and it's natural processing or hdmi to a receiver? Cant say this is surprising...

..thanks?!

Theoretically yes(decent)onboard audio should be the best option for lowest latency but I believe that good PCI/PCI-E audio card is also good to go tho' from other side can not be sure about the USB audio cards.......

 

[[S]]

All iam saying is that toslink is a bad idea as well as audio processing on the Output side.

 

[ador250]

I made a mod only Realtek default + DDL or DTSC, not bloated like AAF mod. Can u test them, Link
u have to disable driver signature enforcement before installing the driver @

 

[Deleted member 67555]

Theoretically yes(decent)onboard audio should be the best option for lowest latency but I believe that good PCI/PCI-E audio card is also good to go tho' from other side can not be sure about the USB audio cards.......

I wonder about how the onboard is connected as in is it hardwired into a PCI-E lane to the CPU which would put it slightly faster/equal with a slotted PCI-E card or some other way that could be slower???

 

[[S]]

Its not about the internal digital connection, hdmi out of the NVIDIA gpu is as fast as the realtek analog out.

Its driver / Software / Compression related.

 

[EarthDog]

Theoretically yes(decent)onboard audio should be the best option for lowest latency but I believe that good PCI/PCI-E audio card is also good to go tho' from other side can not be sure about the USB audio cards.......

Right... just thought this was more known is all. Everything tends to add some sort of latency. Nice to see it in print, though I can't say I've noticed much in my years dealing with integrated audio, sound cards, receivers, etc. So this is a nice PSA for those who may not be aware and for whom can notice.

Plenty of people game happily with sound cards and haven't complained about such things. Surely they are there, but I wonder if the "15ms threshold" is really where the line is drawn. To post in threads asking about the best sound and saying not to use an audio card is a bit peculiar to me solely based on latency...

EDIT: My question is with audio cards however, is if there is less latency if the card is plugged into a PCIe slot attached to the CPU versus one attached to the PCH (which is what integrated audio uses on Z390).

I wonder about how the onboard is connected as in is it hardwired into a PCI-E lane to the CPU which would put it slightly faster/equal with a slotted PCI-E card or some other way that could be slower???

Ha... I just saw this post, see my edit above.

Integrated audio is connected to the PCH...

 

[Zyll Goliat]

I wonder about how the onboard is connected as in is it hardwired into a PCI-E lane to the CPU which would put it slightly faster/equal with a slotted PCI-E card or some other way that could be slower???

Well I am not expert in that field I can only assume that in theory that something that is already integrated on the board should be faster but beside the connection there is many other things related and now we really start with the nitpicking as @S said above most of the time when we can detect and really notice the problem it's probably due the software related/driver issue or maybe hardware malfunction....

Right... just thought this was more known is all. Everything tends to add some sort of latency. Nice to see it in print, though I can't say I've noticed much in my years dealing with integrated audio, sound cards, receivers, etc. So this is a nice PSA for those who may not be aware and for whom can notice.

Plenty of people game happily with sound cards and haven't complained about such things. Surely they are there, but I wonder if the "15ms threshold" is really where the line is drawn. To post in threads asking about the best sound and saying not to use an audio card is a bit peculiar to me solely based on latency...

EDIT: My question is with audio cards however, is if there is less latency if the card is plugged into a PCIe slot attached to the CPU versus one attached to the PCH (which is what integrated audio uses on Z390).

Sure as you said everything tends to add some sort of latency and believe me sometimes even not properly OC CPU or memory can cause those latency spikes and most of the time people are not aware of that because even in games sometimes is not so obvious if your FPS drops here and there....That's why I love LatencyMon just leave it ON for a while and see are you always in "GREEN".....

 

[Deleted member 67555]

Its not about the internal digital connection, hdmi out of the NVIDIA gpu is as fast as the realtek analog out.

Its driver / Software / Compression related.

I'm going to remove my Soundblaster because of this thread.
I only put it back in because my onboard doesn't handle headphones very well.
I do have a few issues...not sure if it's enough latency to notice...but less is what I want so...thank you in advance

 

[bug]

Well, having experimented with this quite recently, my biggest problem was the baseline. No matter how many drivers I updated and what hardware I disabled, my Win10 laptop simply refused to meet the DPC requirements for proper audio. And it's a fairly recent laptop, Skylake based.
I was kind of surprised $800 worth of equipment can't handle something as simple as movie playback. $35 worth of Chromecast can.

 

[EarthDog]

I'm going to remove my Soundblaster because of this thread.
I only put it back in because my onboard doesn't handle headphones very well.
I do have a few issues...not sure if it's enough latency to notice...but less is what I want so...thank you in advance

So, even though you don't notice any latency issues, you are going to remove your sound card?

Esit: I also wonder if different sound cards yield different latency....

 

[[S]]

This Video will work if you have a larger latency issue:

.

 

[bug]

So, even though you don't notice any latency issues, you are going to remove your sound card?

Esit: I also wonder if different sound cards yield different latency....

I've said it many times before: if you're going to use a digital out, you shouldn't bother adding a dedicated sound card at all. I usually get downvoted for this

 

[[S]]

@bug: that is only partially correct. Creative Soundblaster for example modifies the sound (pre-processing) and compresses the analog output to its toslink out.
This is why creative digital (toslink) out is the worst idea.

 

[bug]

@bug: that is only partially correct. Creative Soundblaster for example modifies the sound (pre-processing) and compresses the analog output to its toslink out.
This is why creative digital (toslink) out is the worst idea.

I'm confused, which part is incorrect? Should you install a dedicated sound card to use digital out?

 

[Deleted member 67555]

So, even though you don't notice any latency issues, you are going to remove your sound card?

Esit: I also wonder if different sound cards yield different latency....

No I'm not sure...I may have a latency issue and I'm hoping this resolves it...if I have a latency issue.
On CoD MW I had noticed that it seemed as if I had a delay in audio...nothing dramatic...I feel like I've been missing that split second.
BTW my wife thinks I'm nuts about this.
I think it started either when I got a pair of headphones or after a game update...both happened around the same time if not on the same day....That's when I installed the SB....talking maybe a month ago
Again my wife thinks I'm chasing a white whale...

 

[EarthDog]

No I'm not sure...I may have a latency issue and I'm hoping this resolves it...if I have a latency issue.

I think it's worth testing, but I'll bet you wouldnt notice in a double blind...

Again my wife thinks I'm chasing a white whale...

I'm with her...





@ [*s] what do you think about different sound cards and different latency? What about cpu sourced pcie slots versus pch??

 

[bug]

@EarthDog I believe software(drivers) make more of a difference than hardware does. But it's just my educated guess (at best).

 

[[S]]

I'm confused, which part is incorrect? Should you install a dedicated sound card to use digital out?

Digital connection should be always the Same quality, latency and quality wise. Unless you are using a creative soundblaster. There you get pre processing within the digital compressed toslink connection. Worst case latency.

 

[bug]

Digital connection should be always the Same quality, latency and quality wise. Unless you are using a creative soundblaster. There you get pre processing within the digital compressed toslink connection. Worst case latency.

So I'm right, there is no scenario where adding a sound card makes things better for the digital out.