New Fractal North / Intel build

[fusseli]

I keep seeing 7800X3D recommendations and I simply don't agree. Who cares about 1% better average fps when minimum FPS and stutter, as well as the huge non-gaming benefits of intel 14 series make it the obvious choice for me.

I've decided to upgrade and in the process start a whole new build from scratch. I don't need to go nuts on mATX or ITX but I want to down size, so I've chosen the Fractal North for the aesthetics.

Motherboard -- I'm about to upgrade to a 14700k / ddr5-7200 cl34 and I have it narrowed down to the Asus Strix Z790-H at $300 ($260 on sale) vs. the better value Gigabyte Elite X Wifi7 at $300. Any inputs? The "high end" mobo market is insanely inflated these days. These new CPUs don't even overclock that much compared to the big difference 5ghz all-core made a few years back.

Cooling -- My H115i 280mm AIO won't fit in the North, so I'm going to upgrade to the EK CR360 Dark.

Power -- I've had random stability issues with my 7900XTX and I think it's PSU related, plus the massive power of the 14 series, I'm going 1200W 80+gold. Fuck it.

Thoughts? https://pcpartpicker.com/user/fusseli/saved/#view=jwWGJx

 

[fusseli]

Did I scare everyone off by disqualifying the x3d?

 

[Kapone33]

Change the RAM and AIO and you are Golden. Thermalright Aqua Elite would be fine anything from Cooler Master or Corsair as well but 360 and up as for RAM Gskill or Kingston. SK hynix based kits are the best on DDR5. They were not on DDR4.

 

[fusseli]

Change the RAM and AIO and you are Golden. Thermalright Aqua Elite would be fine anything from Cooler Master or Corsair as well but 360 and up as for RAM Gskill or Kingston. SK hynix based kits are the best on DDR5. They were not on DDR4.

Is there a specific ram kit above 7000 CL34 at 32gb that you can recommend? And yes, I was also looking at the Corsair H150i, like I have at work on my 13900KS, but the EK CR360 actually performs better in all of the reviews. It’s actually the top performer it appears in 360mm.

 

[evernessince]

Who cares about 1% better average fps when minimum FPS and stutter, as well as the huge non-gaming benefits of intel 14 series make it the obvious choice for me.

Intel 14th gen doesn't have better minimums or less stutter:

For gaming the 7800X3D is the best, period. On top of that the 7800X3D has been dipping to $300 (microcenter) - $350 on sale, uses vastly less energy, and is on a platform that will support at least 2 future generations.

The only reason to get the 14700K or 14900K is if you need the cores for heavily threaded workloads but not up to the level of server / HEDT. If you aren't using the cores you are just wasting money.

 

[faye]

Yeah, if you're getting shut down or instability under heavy GPU load it's probably the 7900XTX. just had to go from 850w to 1000w myself.

 

[fusseli]

Intel 14th gen doesn't have better minimums or less stutter:

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View attachment 321617

For gaming the 7800X3D is the best, period. On top of that the 7800X3D has been dipping to $300 (microcenter) - $350 on sale, uses vastly less energy, and is on a platform that will support at least 2 future generations.

The only reason to get the 14700K or 14900K is if you need the cores for heavily threaded workloads but not up to the level of server / HEDT. If you aren't using the cores you are just wasting money.

Try again bro, look at 4K or 3440x1440 results for latency and min fps. 1080p is for kids and babies. I specifically said who cares about a percent higher average fps, especially with the massive performance advantage in everything outside games.

 

[maxfly]

I would suggest going with something ATX 3.0, PCIE5, for your PSU. If bequiet! Is your brand of choice the 13 series is where you will find the updated ATX 3.0 units. They are pricey. If you want top notch at an affordable price this MSI unit is what I would go with.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1727536-REG/msi_mpga1000gpcie5_mpg_a1000g_1000w_80.html

GL with the build!

 

[fusseli]

Yeah, if you're getting shut down or instability under heavy GPU load it's probably the 7900XTX. just had to go from 850w to 1000w myself.

Yes, I believe there are transient power draws that my metering isn’t able to capture, and 80 plus gold pre-ATX3.0 psus are not up to the task. I’ve even turned off my OC on my 10700k, with 7900xtx pulling 400w, and still get random crashes. Also, after looking at reviews, it seems there is very little reason to go with platinum or titanium compared to a top tier gold. Why pay $100+ for 1% better

 

[faye]

Yes, I believe there are transient power draws that my metering isn’t able to capture, and 80 plus gold pre-ATX3.0 psus are not up to the task. I’ve even turned off my OC on my 10700k, with 7900xtx pulling 400w, and still get random crashes. Also, after looking at reviews, it seems there is very little reason to go with platinum or titanium compared to a top tier gold. Why pay $100+ for 1% better

In the ITX/SFX world the difference in cost is pretty minimal... You're paying $160+, might as well spend the extra $50 for Platinum at that point. ATX is a bit different. Plus I keep PSUs forever, so...

 

[maxfly]

Yes, I believe there are transient power draws that my metering isn’t able to capture, and 80 plus gold pre-ATX3.0 psus are not up to the task. I’ve even turned off my OC on my 10700k, with 7900xtx pulling 400w, and still get random crashes. Also, after looking at reviews, it seems there is very little reason to go with platinum or titanium compared to a top tier gold. Why pay $100+ for 1% better

I agree, if you go with a solid manufacturer from the get go there's nothing tangible to be gained. The only time I bother going with anything above gold rated is if the platinum model happens to be on sale for the same price as the gold.

 

[fusseli]

In the ITX/SFX world the difference in cost is pretty minimal... You're paying $160+, might as well spend the extra $50 for Platinum at that point. ATX is a bit different. Plus a keep PSUs forever, so...

Agree. My last psu was an 80+ gold Seasonic, that used to be top of the line, that lasted 10 years even running gtx970 SLI, until it became undersized for 6900xt/7900xtx. Now it's harder to tell what's real top tier since gold/platinum/titanium all have options now.

 

[evernessince]

Try again bro, look at 4K or 3440x1440 results for latency and min fps. 1080p is for kids and babies.

1080p results inform us of the CPU's full performance while 4K results only tell us that said CPU can perform to the point of being bottlenecked by the test rig's GPU. The latter isn't giving you an indicatation of a CPU's full performance as the CPU has to wait on the GPU, hence why there are so many CPUs so close together at that resolution. Mind you the CPU you are getting (14700K) still looses by 0.5% at 4K and 9% at 720p. As you can see, the performance of the 7800X3D increases as you reduce the GPU bottleneck, which means the CPU has more room to grow as you increase GPU performance.

I specifically said who cares about a percent higher average fps, especially with the massive performance advantage in everything outside games.

14th gen is a mere 0.2% faster than the 13th gen at 4K in games. I have to assume that you do care about a small percentage if you are spending extra for 0.2% at the resolution of your choice. Multi-threaded application performance is also indentical to the 13th gen. The 14700 has high application performance because it competes with the 7900X3D price wise, not the 7800X3D. That said, whether that extra application performance matters entirely depends on whether you'll utilize more than 8 cores. If you don't it's just a waste of money.

You also mentioned something about stutter on the 7800X3D. The 7800X3D doesn't really have it but many people have reported stuttering in games and applications on Intel's hybrid CPUs. There are hundreds of reddit posts on that about in game stuttering and TechYesCity has a video series on the higher latency of Intel's Hybrid CPUs being worse than Intel's older non-hybrid CPUs. Typically I don't think this is that big of a deal because these issues are often minute but since you mentioned it I thought it would be something important for you.

 

[fusseli]

1080p results inform us of the CPU's full performance while 4K results only tell us that said CPU can perform to the point of being bottlenecked by the test rig's GPU. The latter isn't giving you an indicatation of a CPU's full performance as the CPU has to wait on the GPU, hence why there are so many CPUs so close together at that resolution. Mind you the CPU you are getting (14700K) still looses by 0.5% at 4K and 9% at 720p. As you can see, the performance of the 7800X3D increases as you reduce the GPU bottleneck, which means the CPU has more room to grow as you increase GPU performance.



14th gen is a mere 0.2% faster than the 13th gen at 4K in games. I have to assume that you do care about a small percentage if you are spending extra for 0.2% at the resolution of your choice. Multi-threaded application performance is also indentical to the 13th gen. The 14700 has high application performance because it competes with the 7900X3D price wise, not the 7800X3D. That said, whether that extra application performance matters entirely depends on whether you'll utilize more than 8 cores. If you don't it's just a waste of money.

You also mentioned something about stutter on the 7800X3D. The 7800X3D doesn't really have it but many people have reported stuttering in games and applications on Intel's hybrid CPUs. There are hundreds of reddit posts on that about in game stuttering and TechYesCity has a video series on the higher latency of Intel's Hybrid CPUs being worse than Intel's older non-hybrid CPUs. Typically I don't think this is that big of a deal because these issues are often minute but since you mentioned it I thought it would be something important for you.

Are you trying to argue that TPU's review, the industry benchmark of PC review for 10+ years, showing higher score at 4K resolution that is nearest mine, is somehow telling me intel 14gen is inferior? I should care about 720P instead jesus, man.

I encourage you to checkout more Reddit posts. AMD is infamous for stutter and other issues. Why do you think r/amdhelp is such a big subreddit?

 

[evernessince]

I encourage you to checkout more Reddit posts. AMD is infamous for stutter and other issues. Why do you think r/amdhelp is such a big subreddit?

You can believe what you want but am I to assume this curt reply means you aren't actually replying to anything said in my last comment?

 

[Kapone33]

Are you trying to argue that TPU's review, the industry benchmark of PC review for 10+ years, showing higher score at 4K resolution that is nearest mine, is somehow telling me intel 14gen is inferior? I should care about 720P instead jesus, man.

I encourage you to checkout more Reddit posts. AMD is infamous for stutter and other issues. Why do you think r/amdhelp is such a big subreddit?

As far as stutters go there is a common one. If you have a Freesync monitor that is 120 hz and up. When you first install Windows it can set your monitor to 60hz. With Freesync enabled that can cause stutters. Of course going into Display setting and adjusting the refresh rate to 120 or whatever solves that problem. Reddit is full of people that are not going to be as high as a propensity to be enthusiasts but everything else.

 

[fusseli]

You can believe what you want but am I to assume this curt reply means you aren't actually replying to anything said in my last comment?

Your comment on 720P is laughably irrelevant and not worth commenting. I’ve already replied too much.

 

[Frick]

14900K/rtx 4090. Stop being a child.

 

[dgianstefani]

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/PMbDz6

Fixed.

Stutters are more likely to be from your GPU, but 7800X3D is indeed less consistent than tuned 14th gen with good RAM.

I would suggest trying to tune the memory to 8000, which is quite possible on a 1DPC board like the one here. You can buy a full ATX 1DPC board but those are more expensive, ASUS Apex etc.

A good Ti 1000 W ATX 3.0 PSU will do more to safeguard you than a middle tier 1200 W Gold.

The other thing I would suggest is to use a cheap contact frame, but that's not essential.

Try and do a locked OC, instead of per core or the dynamic boost Intel uses, it will eliminate another source of stutters, you should be able to do 5.8 all core, with the ring OC'd as well.

Ti PSUs aren't just 1% better, they have better voltage stability and transients while contributing less heat to the build, they're also just built to a higher standard.

The ITX board selected also has thunderbolt which is useful for longevity.

 

[maxfly]

Ti PSUs aren't just 1% better, they have better voltage stability and transients while contributing less heat to the build, they're also just built to a higher standard.

Making all encompassing statements like this are misleading and generally wrong. Ripple, build quality and transient spikes are unit by unit measurements. Some units are good, some are bad, some are inbetween. Not all PSUs are created equal, not by a long shot. If they were, we would all be livin large with FSP Hydro TI Pro 1000 level units (the best you can get). That's obviously not realistic, so I'll continue to suggest the MSI 1000g gold unit at 98% performance of the FSP HTP for less than 50% of the cost. I'll take the gold for $160 vs $350 every day of the week.
Heat? Quality PSUs don't suffer from overheating in this day and age, they take care of themselves for the most part. If the PSU is installed correctly it's exhausting outside of the case...heat should never be an issue regardless of efficiency rating. The miniscule efficiency difference isn't going to give a titanium rated unit any kind of edge even if a user borks the install and exhausts the PSU backwards.

 

[remekra]

Try again bro, look at 4K or 3440x1440 results for latency and min fps. 1080p is for kids and babies. I specifically said who cares about a percent higher average fps, especially with the massive performance advantage in everything outside games.

That 0,6 FPS uplift on 14700K at 4K sure is worth those 200W.
If you prefer space heater on a soon to be dead platform then go ahead, it's your money and it's all good. Just don't spread some misinformation about a lot better minimums on 14700K and stutters on 7800X3D.

 

[AusWolf]

Did I scare everyone off by disqualifying the x3d?

No. Just there isn't much to say about your post other than good luck!

I would still choose the 7800X3D because it's much easier to feed and cool, but whatever man...

Try again bro, look at 4K or 3440x1440 results for latency and min fps. 1080p is for kids and babies. I specifically said who cares about a percent higher average fps, especially with the massive performance advantage in everything outside games.

1080p data is also meant for extrapolating a CPU bottleneck situation to predict the behaviour of future games.

 

[fusseli]

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/PMbDz6

Fixed.

Stutters are more likely to be from your GPU, but 7800X3D is indeed less consistent than tuned 14th gen with good RAM.

I would suggest trying to tune the memory to 8000, which is quite possible on a 1DPC board like the one here. You can buy a full ATX 1DPC board but those are more expensive, ASUS Apex etc.

A good Ti 1000 W ATX 3.0 PSU will do more to safeguard you than a middle tier 1200 W Gold.

The other thing I would suggest is to use a cheap contact frame, but that's not essential.

Try and do a locked OC, instead of per core or the dynamic boost Intel uses, it will eliminate another source of stutters, you should be able to do 5.8 all core, with the ring OC'd as well.

Ti PSUs aren't just 1% better, they have better voltage stability and transients while contributing less heat to the build, they're also just built to a higher standard.

The ITX board selected also has thunderbolt which is useful for longevity.

From what I’ve read the jury is still out on contact frames. Do you know of a positive review or proof? Yes they are cheap enough it’s hard to argue adding one.

View attachment 321664
View attachment 321665
That 0,6 FPS uplift on 14700K at 4K sure is worth those 200W.
If you prefer space heater on a soon to be dead platform then go ahead, it's your money and it's all good. Just don't spread some misinformation about a lot better minimums on 14700K and stutters on 7800X3D.

At 4K it’s a fact. Sorry bro. Good luck living the fanboy life. Meanwhile I’ll enjoy the daily responsiveness and 20%+ performance gain in all other computing, all day every day. I’ve owned plenty of AMD flavors over the years. They are struggling to stay relevant at half the process node and while 3D vcache is a neat innovation they are not and will always be laying catch up.

 

[tabascosauz]

From what I’ve read the jury is still out on contact frames. Do you know of a positive review or proof? Yes they are cheap enough it’s hard to argue adding one.

How do you ever prove something that inherently varies in every person's case, and generally develops over time? Would you prefer taking the chance and ending up being the unlucky SOB 6 months later that does suffer from pin contact issues?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone serious about LGA1700 say that "the jury is still out". The Thermalright and TG frames are trivial to install. Yes, your choice of cooler mounting and board choice will affect the risk of socket issues, but why would you willingly take the chance on something that's not a bargain basement build?

 

[fusseli]

No. Just there isn't much to say about your post other than good luck!

I would still choose the 7800X3D because it's much easier to feed and cool, but whatever man...


1080p data is also meant for extrapolating a CPU bottleneck situation to predict the behaviour of future games.

Yes I think too much is read into extrapolation of performance rather than focusing on true empirical results like the 4K tests, closest annd most relevant to me, illustrating intel on top.

How do you ever prove something that inherently varies in every person's case, and generally develops over time? Would you prefer taking the chance and ending up being the unlucky SOB 6 months later that does suffer from pin contact issues?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone serious about LGA1700 say that "the jury is still out". The Thermalright and TG frames are trivial to install. Yes, your choice of cooler mounting and board choice will affect the risk of socket issues, but why would you willingly take the chance on something that's not a bargain basement build?

AIO mounting contact is incredibly light weight compared to a big air cooler. And I’ve never had pin issues. Ever. In 20 years.